Guests: Penn Jillette, Ann Coulter, Flavia Colgan, Tom McClintock
LAWRENCE O’DONNELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: Welcome to SATURDAY FINAL. I’m Lawrence O’Donnell, coming to you from beautiful downtown Burbank in California, the epicenter of the recall campaign, steps away from where Arnold Schwarzenegger announced his campaign on the “Tonight Show.” And this week, Arnold’s past became present in the recall election. We’ll be talking about that and talking with the candidate who refuses to stop nipping at Schwarzenegger’s heels, his conservative Republican challenger, Tom McClintock. That will be later on the show.
On the panel today, we have Penn Jillette, coming to us from his home base in Las Vegas, Nevada. And once again, we have Democratic political analyst Flavia Colgan, coming from Philadelphia, and author of the best selling books, “Slander” and “Treason,” the one and only Ann Coulter, coming to us from-Ann, Ann, which Hampton are you in?
ANN COULTER, AUTHOR, “SLANDER”: East.
O’DONNELL: East Hampton. You know, there is much-Ann Coulter is in the playpen of the rich, East Hampton, New York. One of the fanciest beach resorts in the universe. And, you know, there are more Republicans in South Hampton than East Hampton, you know.
COULTER: No, but I wanted to hang out with those authentic blue collar types here in East Hampton.
O’DONNELL: I get it. OK, all right. Well, let’s take a look at how today’s “New York Times” describes the aftermath of yesterday’s car bomb in Iraq that killed almost 100 people. “The New York Times” says, “there were no speeches calling for calm and few public appearances by anyone in charge. L. Paul Bremer III, the Chief American Administrator, was on vacation. Nobody seemed to know when exactly he would return. The American military command here said nothing. Quote: ‘I think someone is writing up a statement. Somebody. I’m not sure,’ said Mahmoud Othman, a member of the 25-member Iraqi Governing Council, one of the few who could be found yesterday afternoon.”
Ann Coulter, we-it’s been 122 days since President Bush declared the end of major combat operations. Could it be any clearer at this point that no one is in charge in post-war Iraq?
COULTER: No, I don’t think that’s true. I think the rebuilding is going extremely well. Douglas MacArthur was in Japan five years after V.J. Day. There were enormous casualties in Germany after World War II. The rebuilding is actually going quite well compared to past efforts. And really, all we’re getting from Democrats is constant carping and the sudden discovery that life is hard.
O’DONNELL: Ann...
COULTER: Yeah, the rebuilding is going to be hard. But I think the American people understand that. Liberals don’t. And on the basis of their original observation that life is hard, they demand that they be put in the White House.
O’DONNELL: Look, Ann, I thought that the president’s landing on the aircraft carrier was a well deserved victory moment. But it turns out that since then we’ve had more people killed, more American soldiers killed in Iraq, 145, than the 138 that were killed during the so-called war. So the post-war...
COULTER: Right, it was amazing.
O’DONNELL: It’s a very strange war. The post-war war is more dangerous than the war.
COULTER: Right. I don’t think that’s surprising. It was an amazingly quick and casualty-free war, and it was over in what — 17 days, with stunningly few casualties.
O’DONNELL: But that’s just the point. If people-people are not resisting...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: That doesn’t mean that, you know, a month later.
O’DONNELL: But do you understand why people are now resisting the notion that the war was over in 17 days?
COULTER: No, the hot war was over. Now we’re in the rebuilding process.
O’DONNELL: What do you call-what do you call...
COULTER: ... it is going better than it did in Japan and Germany.
O’DONNELL: What do you call blowing up 90 people?
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ... they were ethnically coherent. And-and what do you call General Douglas MacArthur being in Japan five year later? But you didn’t get a lot of carping from the Republicans through that? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a lot of carping from Republicans when American soldiers were being shot in Germany, and they were miserable in Germany. They wanted to come home. They were-they were cold, they were tired, they were being shot at by young Nazis. But we knew we had to do it and we knew we had to do when we went into Iraq. This rebuilding is very important. It is a crucial part of the war on terrorism.
O’DONNELL: Flavia...
COULTER: And people seem to understand that, except the Democrats.
O’DONNELL: OK, Ann. Flavia Colgan, one Democrat who has been carping is Joe Biden, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He is complaining that the president hasn’t been straight with people, that he hasn’t come out and said this is how much it’s going to cost, this is how long it’s going to take, whether, any kind of estimate-a minimum estimate, a maximum estimate, anything. Does the president need to do that?
FLAVIA COLGAN, POLITICAL ANALYST: I think the president does need to tell the American people what his plan is, how long we are going to stay there. What the costs are going to be.
We saw Bremer coming out this week saying something I think a lot of us started to realize already, which is Iraq is not going to start to be able to pay for their own reconstruction, that the reconstruction could cost billions of dollars. The effort’s over there now $4 billion a month. And I think a lot of the American people are starting to question the connections that he made in going into war. The connections with al Qaeda, which we still haven’t seen the direct link with Saddam Hussein. Weapons of mass destruction, that are still not found, the imminent threat, and you know, with the bombing that happened yesterday, and I think it’s great that we have apprehended the 19 people, but “The New York Times” is right. We didn’t hear a statement. And even the people in Iraq don’t believe that. They think that it is-you know-a Sunni — a Sunni attack. And that’s going to cause even more unrest.
The president needs to start communicating with the American people. Conservatives strangely now seem to be in huge favor of nation building, which he only said 10 times, you know, during the debates that he wasn’t in favor of. Tell us how long we’re going to stay in there, what our goal is, when are we going to ask for more international support, what concessions are we willing to make in order to change the face of the occupation, which looks completely American-led. We are sharing the brunt of all of the costs, all of the casualties. We need to get more help in there from India...
O’DONNELL: OK, we get it.
COLGAN: ...from Pakistan, from Turkey.
O’DONNELL: Got it. OK, Penn Jillette. Penn Jillette, magician and Cato Institute fellow. And you’ve been very impatient with this war. Weeks ago on this show you were saying that we were entering a quagmire.
PENN JILLETTE, RESEARCH FELLOW CATO INST.: Yeah.
O’DONNELL: What do you — what do you want to hear from the president? Or what do you want to hear from Ann Coulter now?
JILLETTE: I think things are going great. They have to be going great. L. Paul Bremer III is on vacation in Vermont. If things were screwing up, he would be there watching over it. Obviously this is a cake walk. They have got it under control. We don’t go on vacation when tricks don’t work. He’s obviously on vacation because it is all going smoothly, and the mosque bombing was part of the plan. That’s all I can figure.
COLGAN: Oh, come on, Penn, if the president gets a month...
O’DONNELL: Hold it, hold it, Flavia.
COLGAN: ...Bremer needs at least get a week.
O’DONNELL: Ann Coulter, I want you-Ann Coulter, I want you to tell Penn Jillette why this is not Vietnam. He has compared it to quagmire in Vietnam.
JILLETTE: Yeah, when are we going to be out, that’s all.
O’DONNELL: Tell him-he wants to know, when are we going to be out, and tell him what’s different about this.
COULTER: Well, I think I can answer everyone’s objections.
JILLETTE: Go!
COULTER: These are the same arguments, the precise same arguments that were being made before the war. It’s going to be a quagmire. What is the plan? When do we get out? How much is it going to cost? Someone in the military might get his hair mussed. We heard all these arguments.
JILLETTE: No, not mussed. They might die; people die.
COULTER: With many candidates voting in favor of it.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: This was not a hair muss; they died! They died! They did not get the hair mussed.
COULTER: ... more like I say.
JILLETTE: I know it happens in war, which is why ...
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: People died.
COULTER: That’s (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
JILLETTE: That’s why you have to think a lot about it before you went into the war. That’s why you have got to know what you’re doing all the way through to the end. That’s why you can’t be faking it. You can’t fly by the seat of your pants, because people die.
COULTER: ... going magnificently well.
JILLETTE: My hair can get-if we (UNINTELLIGIBLE) well, more people died since we were done. That’s not magnificently well. That’s people dying.
COULTER: That’s (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we had very few casualties.
JILLETTE: Those are honest to goodness people dying, while (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O’DONNELL: You can finish this in an e-mail to Ann later. Ann, go ahead. Ann, go ahead quickly before we get of the segment.
COULTER: This is-this is like the argument that, you know, the fastest growing group of people with AIDS are women. Well, when you start with three women per year, yes, that will be the fastest growing group. Similarly, when you have a really amazing war that comes off with very few casualties, certainly very few civilian casualties, few American casualties, yeah, you will get more casualties during the war itself. We certainly had fewer casualties in the entire war, including the rebuilding that the Democrats are so upset about now.
JILLETTE: OK, that’s much better to say, but don’t shrug it off.
COULTER: ...than we did in Vietnam and World War II.
JILLETTE: Don’t shrug it off.
COULTER: I’m not shrugging it off; I am saying this...
JILLETTE: Well, you said hair mussed. Hair mussed is shrugging it off. I mean, I know-we are both nuts, we say nut staff, but Ann hair muss...
O’DONNELL: Ann took your performance note and she’s got a different tune here.
JILLETTE: OK, OK.
O’DONNELL: We are going to hold it right there. We are going to be right back. This is SATURDAY FINAL on NBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will not rest, we will not tire, and we will not stop until this danger to civilization is removed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O’DONNELL: Welcome back to SATURDAY FINAL. Let’s talk California recall, my favorite segment. I don’t know, where (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We have with us Senator Tom McClintock, doing a return engagement here on SATURDAY FINAL. Senator McClintock, can you hear me?
TOM MCCLINTOCK ®, CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I can.
Thanks for having me back.
O’DONNELL: Tom McClintock, as our audience should by now know, is the ideal conservative Republican candidate for conservative Republicans. But why are so many of them supporting Arnold Schwarzenegger? Senator McClintock, I have a special treat for you tonight. We have Ann Coulter, the most conservative Republican I can find here. She is coming to you from the other coast. She has got her feet in the sand in East Hampton, New York. You’re out here in California. Ann, you are supporting Arnold Schwarzenegger over your dream candidate, Tom McClintock, aren’t you? Ann Coulter?
COULTER: You have to know, with the stress on McClintock-can you hear me?
O’DONNELL: Yes, we can all hear you. We can hear you.
COULTER: ...with the stress on McClintock being my dream candidate. I mean, there’s no question that he would make the greatest governor running right now.
O’DONNELL: But you...
COULTER: ... for governor of California. But it’s a crazy state. I mean, it’s paradise but there are lunatics out there. And if McClintock would pull ahead, I would support him instantly. I just realistically think that Arnold Schwarzenegger has a better chance to win, a very strong chance to win, and to get rid of Gray Davis and Bustamante, that is why I would support Arnold Schwarzenegger. But yeah, I think McClintock is unquestionably the best candidate in the race.
O’DONNELL: Tom McClintock, here’s your chance. Try, do everything you can to drag Ann Coulter back to her ideological heart out of this compromised position over the bodybuilder. Go ahead, Tom.
MCCLINTOCK: Well, Ann, I’ve got some very good news for you. The only campaign showing momentum right now in this race is my campaign. I’ve gone from an asterisk to double digits in a span of just a couple of weeks. If Bill Simon’s supporters rally to my campaign, we’ll end up in a dead heat with Arnold Schwarzenegger within the next week or two, if these trends continue. And then I’ll take you up on that.
O’DONNELL: Ann Coulter, what about that? Shouldn’t you-shouldn’t you and other conservatives be urging the Simon camp to switch to McClintock? That would bring him up to close to 20, within maybe two or three or five points of Schwarzenegger, with time to actually win.
COULTER: I thought it was very honorable what Bill Simon did. And-and I think if I were advising Senator McClintock, my dream candidate...
O’DONNELL: You are advising him right here on live television.
CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ...I am glad you’re in the race. But-I would say, I am glad you are in the race. Stay in the race. I think this is putting great pressure on Arnold Schwarzenegger. But if it is a few weeks before the election, you have 17 points and Arnold Schwarzenegger has above 20, I would strongly urge you to pull out, because you don’t want to be the Perot candidate that led to Bill Clinton being president. But-but things could change. If-I mean, if I’m wrong here and you pull ahead of Arnold Schwarzenegger and he’s the one who has 17 points and you are the one who has 27 or 29 points, well, I would be happy as a clam. But I’m just saying, California is a lunatic state.
MCCLINTOCK: Well, first of all, Ann, I’ve got-I’ve got to take exception with that. I know there’s a tendency to focus on all the glitz and glamour and some of the eccentric qualities of the candidate pool, but what is really going on here in California is a very serious discussion among Californians, over the future direction of this state. People’s backs are to the wall. It is fight or flight time. And what we are seeing in California is folks who have never paid attention to politics before now rising to the occasion in response to a common threat-a common danger, because their families and their futures in California depend upon it.
And that’s why I think our message is resonating so profoundly out there across a broad cross-section of California’s voters. They’re paying attention. They’re listening to the message. That’s why we have campaigns, so they can sort out the backgrounds of the candidates, the experience of the candidates, the qualifications, and their positions on the issues that will determine the future of California for a decade to come.
O’DONNELL: Senator McClintock, coming to us again this week is Penn Jillette from just over your border in Nevada. You spoke to him the last time you were on the show when you pledged to stay in the race all the way to the end. Penn Jillette, knowing your politics as I do, libertarian, you probably agree with Tom McClintock on pretty much every issue in this campaign. Were you a California voter, would you go for the compromised position or would you vote your ideology?
JILLETTE: Well, you know, I would vote my ideology. I would vote libertarian. But what bothers me about Ann is when you’ve got somebody that’s actually what you believe, why give in to the cynicism? Why take it lightly? I mean, wouldn’t you rather have a losing vote for something that was right than to vote for the lesser of two evils and become part of that compromising scum that see this as a horse race instead of seeing it as really important issues? I mean, if the libertarian, we had no chance of winning, which they never do, you still vote for them because it shows that you actually have some belief in your ideology and aren’t just like going with whoever is going to win.
Schwarzenegger doesn’t agree with you on anything. He’s a glamour boy. He doesn’t have any thought in his head. McClintock is your guy. I’m tempted to vote for him just because he believes what he says. Of course, I live in the wrong state and I’m a libertarian. But those things aside, he seems great.
O’DONNELL: Ann Coulter, go ahead.
COULTER: I do want to get all liberals supporting Tom McClintock on record, and I hope...
O’DONNELL: No, no. Penn Jillette is a libertarian. He is at the Cato Institute. He is not a liberal. No one hates liberals more than Penn Jillette.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: You smile when you call me a liberal. We’ll have words, you nut. I am not a liberal. I hate them more than you do.
O’DONNELL: Let’s get-let’s get Flavia Colgan. Flavia Colgan, can you help us out with this...
JILLETTE: I don’t like Flavia.
O’DONNELL: Penn, please.
O’DONNELL: Flavia Colgan, liberal, Democrat, can you help us out with this intervention we’re trying to perform on Ann Coulter to try to bring her back to her heart and support Tom McClintock? Flavia, go ahead.
COLGAN: I agree with Penn. I mean, Ann gets on television and, you know, spews this baby killer this and talks about, you know, how gun control is horrible and pro-choice people are horrible. And then when you have a candidate who is standing up for the very issues that she prefers to care about very deeply and with such passion, you know, she just throws them out the window because she wants to go with the winner.
JILLETTE: She wants to go with the movie star. She goes with the movie star over a guy who is smart and agrees with her on everything. That’s just loony.
O’DONNELL: Ann Coulter, speak in your own defense or switch to McClintock right now; we’ll all understand if you do.
COULTER: Thank you. I really do hope you’re getting all the liberals on the record supporting...
JILLETTE: No, but I’m not a liberal. Don’t have me there.
COLGAN: I’m not supporting McClintock...
O’DONNELL: What about, Flavia-Penn, hold it, let me hear, let me hear Ann Coulter on responding to Flavia...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: Go ahead, Ann, go ahead.
COULTER: Thank you. No, I think that Senator McClintock was absolutely right in what he just said, this is an outraged populace, what Governor Gray has done to that state, what the legislators have done to that state. It’s unbelievable, this is a fiscal crisis, you’ve got a $36 billion deficit.
I saw Arnold Schwarzenegger’s press conference last week and he went on and on and on about how you’ve got to bring business back to California. He supports cutting taxes. How Californians are taxed from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to sleep at night. He told-he, you know-brushed off Warren Buffett to the sidelines. Buffett was basically, you know, announcing where the refreshments would be served at that press conference, and said if he ever mentioned Proposition 13 again, he was going to do 500 sit-ups.
For what California needs right now, Arnold Schwarzenegger would be great. A governor can do really very little to affect abortion as long as Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, and that takes senators and the president.
O’DONNELL: OK. How much in fact...
COLGAN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
O’DONNELL: Hold it. Let me hear Senator McClintock’s final plea to Ann Coulter.
MCCLINTOCK: Ann, you left out one thing. Every time he’s been asked
to sign a no tax pledge, he has pointedly refused. He has got around him
the same team advising him that imposed in this state the biggest tax
increase in California’s history back in 1991 that broke the back of our
economy and turned a recession into a near depression. I’ve taken the no
tax pledge for 20 years now. I’ve proposed and fought for the reforms that
now everyone realizes are essential if we’re to restore the state’s
finances and its economy and its public works. So-so, join me. You can
” you can sign up at helptom.com.
O’DONNELL: OK, Tom McClintock. Go ahead, Ann.
COULTER: Well, I must say, you have been very persuasive. But the fact that the other liberals on this panel are so enthusiastic about you does give me a pause.
O’DONNELL: There is-there is one-there is one liberal-just for the record, just for the record-there’s one liberal on the panel. There’s one extreme conservative on the panel, Ann Coulter. And there’s one extreme libertarian, which is to the right of conservatives and left on the panel. OK, Tom McClintock.
COULTER: He is a liberal.
O’DONNELL: Tom McClintock, thank you very much.
JILLETTE: I am not a liberal. What’s liberal about me?
O’DONNELL: Please, give me a buzzer to cut and drop this. We’ll be right back with the panel’s winners and losers. You are watching SATURDAY FINAL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O’DONNELL: Welcome back to SATURDAY FINAL. It’s time to go to the panel for the winners and losers of the week. Flavia Colgan, liberal, who are your winners and losers of the week?
COLGAN: My winner of the week is the rule of law. After Justice Moore acting more like a political candidate than an officer of the court decided to disregard judicial review and defy a federal court order to remove the 5,300-pound monument of the Ten Commandments from out of the Alabama courthouse, I was glad to see that the rule of law won out over political posturing. If Justice Moore wants to take this to the U.S. Supreme Court he certainly can do so, but the cowboy tactics have got to go.
And my loser for the week is clean air and our public health, after Bush administration signed a rule that will allow thousands of industrial factory plants to spew tons of pollutants in the air without any accountability, and it is going to throw 51 lawsuits from the Justice Department into jeopardy to bring a lot of these factories into compliance with the Clean Air Act. Another giveaway to big corporate interests, and another big loss for all of us to breathe healthy clean air.
O’DONNELL: OK, and now to Penn Jillette, libertarian, the only person I can find on TV who is to the right of Ann Coulter. Penn Jillette, your winner and loser.
JILLETTE: Well, I don’t think you’re going to argue with me on this.
The winner is Ken Dander (ph) who went up against the cult of scientology. And they wanted to get $2 million out of him because he had been harassing them with this wrongful death suit, and instead, they got like-they got $4,500. Essentially, the jury sided with him. So it’s-it’s a blow for the empire. Wonderful.
And the loser is the airlines. This weekend, airline travel is down 2.6 percent. But government would like you to believe it is because American are cowards and afraid of terrorism. I would like to believe that it is because Americans still have pride and don’t want to be treated like criminals at airports.
O’DONNELL: OK, and now Ann Coulter, your winner and loser of the week.
COULTER: The winner of the week was Satan. When we have illegitimacy through the roof, mall girls being prostitutes, terrorists flying plane into our sky scrapers.
O’DONNELL: Not last week, they did not last week...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ...six of his co-workers. What-what has driven the Southern Poverty Law Center to distraction is the fact that there’s a Ten Commandments monuments by a courthouse. That’s really going to help the poor of-of Alabama. So the winner was Satan. They got the Ten Commandments moved.
O’DONNELL: Ann, your loser.
COULTER: Loser of the week was-and by the way, I noticed that I am the only person giving my winner and losers throughout interruptions. The loser of the week was Dr. Martin Luther King on the 40th anniversary of his “I Have a Dream” speech. At the MTV Video Awards, millionaire rap artists were dressing as pimps, bringing in actual pimps on stage to thunderous applause, celebrating prostitution and pimpery. I think Dr. King is rolling over in his grave right now.
O’DONNELL: All right, that’s going to be it for the winners and losers. When SATURDAY FINAL continues, the Democratic presidential race-who is in, and who is out. We’ll be right back right here on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He has done a good job. I mean, I give him credit. I respect what he has put together and what he has done. I’m very confident that people want more than just anger and more than sort of railing at things. They want real solutions, and they want leadership.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are not worried about Howard Dean?
KERRY: I’m confident about my campaign
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O’DONNELL: Welcome back to SATURDAY FINAL. Now to the race on the White House. If you believe the polls, and all the Democratic candidates do believe the polls, no matter what they say, Howard Dean leads the pack of Democratic hopefuls and he is certainly leading the pack on the fund-raising front. Dean says he’ll raise over $10 million this quarter. Dean did raise $7.6 million last quarter and 700,000 more on his four-day marathon sleepless summer nights. But he’s been spending big, too.
More than anyone else. Spending on television ads, spending on staff, spending on the traveling campaign. He may be in danger of peaking too soon. Who else will join the race is another question of the day. Possibly Hillary Clinton. John Kerry plans to make his announcement official on Tuesday after doing a full hour on tomorrow’s “Meet The Press” with Tim Russert. Then there is General Wesley Clark waiting in the wings.
Ann Coulter, Karl Rove said some time ago that he thought Howard Dean was the dream candidate for his incumbent Republican president to run against next year. Do you think there’s any, any nervousness at all creeping in to Republican ranks about the Howard Dean surge?
COULTER: No. No, I do not. I mean, I would prefer a world in which you didn’t have the fear of god go through you at the idea of the opposing candidate actually making his way into the White House. But you know, usually Democrats run candidates with some sort of phony Americana. They run these generals or veterans or some phony southern white male.
Dean has none of that. This Doctor Demento was arrogant. He is horrish (ph). And this is why the Democrats are enthusiastic about him. He has no appeal among Americans. He has a lot of appeal among the WTO protesters. Those things are looking like Nuremberg rallies recently. It’s ...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: But Ann ...
COULTER: ... an insane group within the Democratic Party.
O’DONNELL: But, Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter. No appeal among Americans? Who is it that they’re polling in New Hampshire? Are those all people down from Montreal for the weekend? What are we talking about?
COULTER: No. I mean, you know, Americana Americans. The ...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: Whatever that means.
COULTER: This is going to play very well outside of East Hampton, Malibu, and Manhattan.
O’DONNELL: I have got to get a translator. I got to ...
COULTER: I’m confident he’ll take California.
O’DONNELL: I need an Ann Coulter translator. I have to get a little thing on the screen that says Americans means whatever that means.
Flavia Colgan, what about the Dean surge? I have reevaluated the Dean candidacy now, several times. I dismissed it as, you know, the little doctor from Vermont six months ago. Absolutely hopeless. John Kerry was going to swamp him. I am looking at these numbers. They can’t be denied. This guy coming on strong. Kerry wants to make this his week with his big announcement. Can he possibly do that?
COLGAN: I think it is very hard. Dean is taking a tremendous amount of the spotlight. I’m not quite sure what Americana is, but Iowa certainly seems as close to it as I can come up with. And he is doing very well there. And, as you mentioned earlier, the money chase, he is doing well. And what you see in the focus groups, it’s not so much what he is saying but how he is saying it.
If the people really have this visceral connection with him and feel that he is authentic, feel that he is sincere. And earlier, we saw that silly story about a Philly cheese steak and how he got Swiss cheese on it. The only reason that story had legs is because it spoke to a larger issue.
That people feel Kerry is kind unapproachable or, you know, a little aloof.
So I think he focus more on how he delivers his message than just the message alone, because I think that that is his biggest problem right now. And Dean is really tapping into not just the Democratic base, but a lot of people who have never been to a political rally, who has never given a political donation before and who have never voted.
He is registering tons of people. He is getting more people into the fold, and the Republicans should be scared of these more activists signing up. He had 10,000 people, you know, in a rally in New York. He is going to Oregon. He is campaigning all across the country, and there seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for him.
O’DONNELL: Penn Jillette, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton rocketed involuntarily into the presidential campaign this week when plans for her fund-raising meetings next week leaked to the press. And now we have this huge speculation of will Hillary run? Can you conceive of that? Can you conceive of the former first lady trying to get herself into the White House one term after her husband?
JILLETTE: I don’t care at all. Any Democrat is ...
O’DONNELL: Hey, that’s not the game here. This is not “Hollywood Squares.” When we ask you about Hillary, you have to pretend to care for a minute.
JILLETTE: Any Democrat is exactly the same. There’s no difference to me at all. They can all be exactly the same to me. I have this definition of Americans that is like, people who are citizens of the USA. Apparently Ann’s definition is anybody who’s doing an impersonation of Dana Carvey’s church lady. It is Satan. But I consider myself American, but I would not consider a Democrat or Republican on a bet. I will not vote for the lesser of two evils, and I will not even consider Hillary Clinton as president. I just ate.
O’DONNELL: Ann Coulter, what do you make of the Hillary buzz and what are you hearing in the Hamptons, one of the principle sources of her fund-raising?
COULTER: Oh, no. They’re all ga-ga over Howard Dean out here, you know, those real Americans (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I think Hillary will wait and see ...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: Do you think they would switch to Hillary? Ann, Ann, do you think the East Hampton liberals and New York liberals would switch to Hillary if she got in?
COULTER: I don’t know. They’re basically orgasmic over Howard Dean. I can’t really see that happening. And I think Hillary is waiting to see if there’s an opening. I don’t think that opening is going to come to beat Bush.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: Is Hillary controlled by Satan? Is she Satan?
COULTER: Not in 2004. I think she’ll probably run in 2008. And I
...
JILLETTE: On the Satan ticket.
COULTER: If Republicans run someone like, you know, another Bob Dole, it’s possible to see a Hillary presidency. But I don’t see in it 2004, though I think she’s waiting in the wings.
COLGAN: Lawrence, I think ...
O’DONNELL: Flavia Colgan, Hillary spent the week upstate New York at Syracuse, the state fair, going to Ithaca, an upstate trip. She really looks to me like she is really is enjoying the job she has. My bet is she likes what she’s doing too much and the run for the presidency looks a little too risky. And she’s done nothing, absolutely nothing to prepare for a run for the presidency. And I think the Clintons both know, it would way too late. I don’t expect her to get into this. What do you think?
COLGAN: I don’t think she is going to get in either. A few months ago, it would have looked more like a coronation. But, I think she is waited too long. But, I think this points to a much larger story, which is, the reason that the speculation is coming up is because of Bush’s vulnerability. A year ago, conventional wisdom was, there’s no way to beat this guy. He is unbeatable, therefore it behooves her to say in the Senate, get more gravitas, build up her credentials, and kind of do the work for the people of New York. The speculation ...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: OK, Flavia. We’re out of time for this segment. I am sorry we are out of time for this segment. She’s not going to run. You heard it right here.
Straight ahead, watch the panel get really ticked off. I mean, really ticked off when we come back on SATURDAY FINAL.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O’DONNELL: Welcome back to SATURDAY FINAL. Now it’s time for our ticked off segment. Ann Coulter, you’re new to the show. I have to explain the rules to you. You get one minute to discuss what really drove you crazy this week, and on this segment, Ann, it is 60 seconds. We tick them down and there’s a buzzer.
So Ann Coulter, go ahead. And you have to use the phrase-you have to use the phrase, I’m ticked off. You can’t that other phrase that you use all week. I’m ticked off because. Go ahead, Ann Coulter.
OK. Big speech to Ann Coulter explaining the rules. She doesn’t hear a thing. She’s out at the beach in East Hampton, New York, and the sound went down. We’ll come back to Ann.
Penn Jillette, you’re with us. You know the rules.
JILLETTE: I do.
O’DONNELL: Go ahead.
JILLETTE: I’m ticked off at this whole show that you run becomes very California centric. And I’m in Las Vegas.
O’DONNELL: I’m a California guy.
JILLETTE: I’m in Las Vegas. We got a problem in Las Vegas. They just put a new tax in where they-they’ve always taxed 10 percent on entertainment on shows like “Penn and Teller” at the Rio Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, Nevada.
O’DONNELL: Plug, plug, plug.
JILLETTE: But, now they’ve added that if you have a piano player over in the corner, you have to add 10 percent tax to every single thing sold in that room. So if you ...
O’DONNELL: You mean like a restaurant? Like a restaurant piano player?
JILLETTE: If you pay-if you pay $100 for your dinner, it’s 10 percent added to that or they can pay it themselves if they want, because you got a guy playing a little bit of Gershwin in the corner. Which means if a restaurant does $5 million a year in meals and drinks, to have a piano player in the corner costs them a half a million dollars. And that starts Monday. Of course, they’re not going to have to pay any because as of Monday, they have fired every piano player in every restaurant in Las Vegas. That’s the way the taxes work, kids.
O’DONNELL: All right, Flavia Colgan, 60 seconds. Go ahead.
COLGAN: I’m sorry we lost Ann because she...
O’DONNELL: She’s back.
COLGAN: OK. She inspired me on my ticked off segment this week for how not to remove Satan. This is a devastating story coming out of Wisconsin. A little boy, 8 years old by the name of Terrence Cottrell, who is autistic. His minister decide that Satan was inside his body and the way to take it out was to do a healing service where he they held the kid down, kicking and screaming, and eventually caused his death.
What really ticked me off about this is that the prosecutor is only going after child abuse. I’m starting to see a pattern where they get every skittish about going after religious institutions, whether they be parents who refuse to give their kids medical attention or a case like this, where this guy held this kid down, he died by asphyxiation, and they don’t want to go after him because he says I did it to remove Satan and how was I to know he was screaming and kicking, that he was going to die. I think this was horrible.
O’DONNELL: OK. We get it. Ann Coulter, you’re back up. We have your sound now, don’t we? Ann Coulter?
COULTER: Yes.
O’DONNELL: Oh good. OK.
COULTER: I’m very happy to be back.
O’DONNELL: Did you hear my rules at the start of the segment for ticked off?
COULTER: I did not.
O’DONNELL: OK. You get 60 seconds to tell us what really ticked you
off. And Ann, you have to use that phrase. Ticked off. Not the other
phrase that we all use all week when we’re not on TV. You begin by saying
...
COULTER: I do not.
O’DONNELL: ... I’m ticked off because, and go ahead. You got a minute-you got a minute to sell us. Go ahead.
COULTER: I’m sure I would be ticked off if I had been hooked up and heard the other panelists’ comments. Including especially that other liberal.
JILLETTE: I said ...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: She has ...
COULTER: ... ticked off ...
O’DONNELL: Everyone else knows the rules. Ann gets 60 seconds uninterrupted. Go ahead, Ann.
COULTER: I know. That’s because we have Linda Blair on the panel. I’m not actually ticked off but amused by the Democrats obsessive fixation on John Ashcroft. It is almost two years since the most massive terrorist attack in the history of the world. There has been nothing approaching that for two years now. And the man who is mostly responsible for that is John Ashcroft with very little disruption in anyone’s life, at least not because of John Ashcroft. Maybe because of Norman Mineta.
I keep searching the newspapers for some example of an outrageous civil rights-civil liberties violation. I’ve come across no such. Six terrorist cells are under surveillance right now. They’re being lost. Many others have been busted up. That is thanks to John Ashcroft. Who are the Democrats focused on? John Ashcroft.
O’DONNELL: OK, Ann. By the way, I forgot to warn you. There is a timer and a buzzer on this one.
Ann, that’s one of the many things that I love about you is that you never do really get ticked off. You’re always amused with whatever it is that is bothering you.
All right. We are going to be right back after this. And I’m going to give you SATURDAY FINAL’s pick for political lie of the week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R-CA) GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I never lived my life to be a politician. I never lived my life to be the governor of California. Obviously, I’ve made statements that are ludicrous and crazy and outrageous and all those things, because that’s the way I always was.
I’m not paying any attention to all of those things. I have no memory of any of the interviews I did 20 or 30 years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O’DONNELL: That was Arnold Schwarzenegger changing his story this week after the discovery of an old interview he gave to “Oui” magazine back in 1977. Ann Coulter, he first said, hey, I was a wild guy back then.
Then he said I don’t remember that article at all. Now, I got to tell you,
that’s my pick for political lie of the week because I remember the
article. I remember holding it in my hands. I remember reading it. Ann
...
JILLETTE: Only with one hand.
COULTER: You are a Democrat.
O’DONNELL: I have reread article. It is exactly as I remember it. Ann, how is this going to play with the conservative wing of the Republican Party? The family values crowd in California?
COULTER: It’s not the first point I would bring up in arguing for Arnold Schwarzenegger. But, it was 25 years ago. He was pumping iron, trying to get publicity. And I thought his response was pretty good in saying I haven’t spent my life running for the governor of California.
O’DONNELL: Oh, so then you believe the first response, and you agree with me that the second one is a lie. The first response being-the first response being, I was a wild guy. I wasn’t preparing myself for politics. The second response a day later being, I don’t remember the interview. That one is a lie, we can all agree on that, right?
COULTER: No. I don’t think-No. I don’t think there ...
O’DONNELL: He is just lying.
COULTER: No. I don’t think they’re inconsistent. You’re really making a tempest out of nothing. I don’t think they’re inconsistent at all. You’ve given a lot of interviews, I’ve given a lot of interviews. I am generally misquoted. Quotes are invented. I don’t particularly remember them.
And he said ...
O’DONNELL: He’s not saying-he’s not saying ...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ... long before this “Oui” article came out, he said-when he his announcement on Jay Leno, he said, look, you’re going to hear a lot of stuff about how I’m a womanizer and this and that and bla bla bla. He said that sounds about the same as what you’re describing here, him saying I didn’t live my life to be, to run for governor of California. Nobody has asked more specifically. He says he doesn’t remember the interview. I don’t think it is a lie, because ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLGAN: Ann, Ann ...
O’DONNELL: Flavia Colgan ...
COLGAN: Yes.
O’DONNELL: I am going to read to you from the “L.A. Times”, because, of course, on a family show like this, I will not touch “Oui” magazine at all. But I will read the “L.A. Times” quote of the “Oui” magazine article. The story is that at Gold’s Gym in Venice, Arnold Schwarzenegger says, quote, a black girl, end quote, entered the room naked and then he says, quote, everybody jumped on her and took her upstairs where we all got together.
Now, does that sound like womanizing to you? This big bisexual adventure with a bunch of naked body builders and one woman?
COLGAN: I find it incredible that conservatives are outraged about Madonna and Britney Spears kissing at the MTV Music Awards, but aren’t batting eyelashes about a man who is describing group sex in very misogynist, degrading, explicit ways on top of throwing in a couple slurs about homosexuals, and I mean, Arnold has had a whopper of a week.
Besides this lie, he also lied-his two biggest platforms when he came out in his campaign when he refused to say his position on anything were, one, I am not going to take any money because I have tons of money of my own and I am not going to take any money from special interests and I am going to run a very positive campaign and do no negative campaigning.
He has three lies there week as far as I can count. He is taking-raising money from special interests from people who have worked in front of the state. I mean, this guy is a joke. And Ann, why are you not outraged about the family values on this?
O’DONNELL: Hold it. Let me get Penn. We’ll get back to Ann. Let me get Penn here. Penn, you’re in show business, like Arnold, but I know that you have been living your life for a future political career and would never have done anything like that. Go ahead, Penn.
JILLETTE: No, I wouldn’t. But, I’m bothered by Flavia busting Schwarzenegger for two things. One is, he used an anti-gay slur. He used the word fag. And the other is that he was in group sex with men. So you can either bust him for being gay or for being anti-gay, but I don’t think you can do both, Flavia. You got to pick one or the other. Either he was in group sex with men or he’s anti-gay. Pick one and go with it. I think you can win on either one. But, you can’t do both.
COLGAN: As a woman, he described it as a gang bang situation. I’m not concerned that he had a homosexual activity.
JILLETTE: OK, so you are going to go ...
COLGAN: I’m concerned that he seemed to be very aggressive against this woman in the way he described it.
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: Let me get Ann Coulter in here for a final word of defense.
JILLETTE: Which one?
O’DONNELL: Ann, stop. Please let me get Ann Coulter. We’ve got it, Flavia. Ann Coulter, your final word of defense on this thing.
COULTER: My final word is, when a Democrat spokesman is this upset about a pornographic magazine and some sort of sexual harassment, I would say they’re afraid of Arnold Schwarzenegger. And that’s because they know he will cut taxes.
COLGAN: I’m upset about the hypocrisy ...
JILLETTE: Taxes?
COLGAN: I’m upset about the hypocrisy. Why do conservatives choose when they are going to get upset about family values. I mean, all of a sudden their issues ...
COULTER: This was 25 years ago. When do you choose-you care about rape. Bill Clinton credibly accused ...
(CROSSTALK)
O’DONNELL: OK. That’s it. We are going to have to wrap it right there. Thank you to the panel. That’s our time for this week. Thanks, Penn Jillette, Flavia Colgan, Ann Coulter. You’re watching SATURDAY FINAL. Come back next week.
END
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