CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, terror and dread in Afghanistan. The U.S. evacuation in peril as the death toll from that ISIS attack reaches nearly 200, including 13 American servicemembers.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We will not forgive. We will not forget. We will hunt you down and make you pay.
CHUCK TODD:
The U.S. hits ISIS with a drone attack in eastern Afghanistan.
MAJ. GEN. HANK TAYLOR:
Two high-profile ISIS targets were killed, and one was wounded.
CHUCK TODD:
But President Biden says another terror attack is highly likely.
GEN. KENNETH McKENZIE:
We have other active threat streams, extremely active threat streams against the airfield.
CHUCK TODD:
And the president is sticking to his Tuesday withdrawal deadline. This morning, my interviews with Secretary of State Antony Blinken and President Trump's second national security advisor, H.R. McMaster. Plus, surging Covid cases.
TAMIE SAGLIMBENI:
The amount of death and dying we're seeing is, in my whole nursing career I've never seen anything like it.
CHUCK TODD:
More than 100,000 Americans now hospitalized --
JANET TRUMPER-WHITNEY:
The patients we're getting are younger, and they're turning sicker much faster.
CHUCK TODD:
-- as millions of Americans refuse to be vaccinated.
JAIME LILLO:
We could have avoided this whole wave if more people in our country had gone in and just gotten two shots.
CHUCK TODD:
My guest this morning, Dr. Anthony Fauci. Joining me for insight and analysis are Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, PBS NewsHour Chief Correspondent Amna Nawaz, Matthew Continetti of the American Enterprise Institute and NBC News Pentagon correspondent Courtney Kube. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. We are tracking this very dangerous Hurricane Ida, which is heading towards the Louisiana coast. Forecasters say the storm has rapidly intensified, and it’s turned quickly into a monster-sized Category 4 hurricane. We’ll have an update later in this broadcast, but we’re going to begin with the suicide bombing attack in Kabul that took the lives of some 170 Afghans, plus those of 13 American servicemembers. It’s the very nightmare scenario the Biden administration most feared. Americans are being warned right now to stay away from the airport, and President Biden added yesterday that another terror attack is "highly likely in the next 24 to 36 hours." Mr. Biden vowed revenge for Thursday's bombing, and on Friday, the U.S. made its first reprisal strike on ISIS-K, with the military saying it killed two high-profile targets. Evacuation flights are continuing just two days short of the August 31st deadline, even under the threat of another terror attack. So as the U.S. winds down its presence in Afghanistan, many questions remain: How will the U.S. be able to counter terrorist threats in Afghanistan with U.S. forces soon completely out of the country, along with critical intelligence capabilities no longer available? What becomes of the quarter million Afghans who helped the U.S. war effort, many of whom are still going to be stuck in Afghanistan? How big a political toll will this chaos and carnage in Kabul take on Mr. Biden's presidency long term? And most of all, was the 20-year war in Afghanistan worth it? I’m joined now by NBC News Chief Foreign correspondent Richard Engel. So, Richard, this is how it ends. Twenty years. What's the fallout?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Well I -- well I think the fallout is huge. And I think we're going to be feeling this for, for many years to come. The same way that the Iraq War created a hole in the Middle East and then all the countries around it shifted, and it caused tremendous instability and ultimately we saw the rise of ISIS, now, to a degree, the United States and other nations have managed to plug that hole, but it took a long time. Now, the collapse of Afghanistan, taken over by the Taliban, is creating a hole in Central Asia. And it's going to impact, it's going to suck in the countries all around it. It's going to suck in Pakistan. It's going to suck in Iran. In -- with Iraq, it tore up the Middle East that was established after the First World War. It tore up the old maps. Here, I would be looking at the Durand Line, the line between Afghanistan and Pakistan. This used to be called the great game for Central Asia. And with this pullout, we've just restarted the great game.
CHUCK TODD:
What is America's role going to be in Afghanistan? Is it going to be similar to what -- how we handled Syria? Where we just go in, find a terror target, try to deal with that, and sort of play whack-a-mole?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Ah, come on.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it looks like we lost Richard Engel there. No worries, Richard. In Doha for us, Richard, thank you. Look, last night I spoke with the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, and I began by asking him what the United States' immediate future in Afghanistan is going to look like.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me just start with a simple question. What does America's presence look like in Kabul on September 1st?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, I'll tell you in a sec, but let me just start with this, because it's important. Every American is grieving the loss of our men and women in uniform in that heinous terrorist attack against our forces who were evacuating innocent men, women and children from Kabul. I have to tell you that we at the State Department feel it especially powerfully, because so many of those lost were Marines. And you know this, and I think a lot of Americans know this too. If you go into any American embassy in the world, the first person you're going to see is a Marine standing guard, standing sentry. We can't do what we do, our diplomats can't do what they do, without the Marines. And that was true, of course, in Kabul in evacuating, so far, 110,000 people. And it's true in every mission around the world. So we're feeling this especially hard. It's like a punch to the, to the gut, and I just wanted to share that with people, because it's something that I'm feeling across this building and across my community here at the -- at the State Department.
CHUCK TODD:
And I want to get more into the retaliation that's coming as well. Given what you just said, so can we have a diplomatic presence on September 1st, and can you have our diplomatic presence protected by Marines on September 1st in Kabul?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, two things Chuck. First, in terms of having an on-the-ground diplomatic presence on September 1st, that's not likely to happen. But what is going to happen is that our commitment to continue to help people leave Afghanistan who want to leave and who are not out by September 1st, that endures. There's no deadline on that effort. And we have ways, we have mechanisms to help facilitate the ongoing departure of people from Afghanistan if they choose to leave.
CHUCK TODD:
What are those ways and mechanisms? Is it more negotiating with the Taliban?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, look, I'm not going to get into the detail, but let me say this. First, you may have seen that just yesterday a very senior Taliban official went on television and radio across the country and repeatedly assured people in Afghanistan that they would have the freedom to travel after August 31st. He even specifically said, "Those who worked for the Americans and those who want to leave for whatever reason will have that freedom." Now of course, we don't take the Taliban at their word, we take them by their deed. And that's what we're going to be looking to. We have more than 100 countries, 114 countries who signed onto a statement we initiated making clear the international community expects the Taliban to make good on a commitment to let people continue to leave the country after August 31st. That freedom of travel is essential to the international community's expectations of the Taliban going forward. And working with other countries very closely, we're going to make sure that we put in place the means to do that. An airport that functions, other ways of leaving the country, all of that is what we're working on in the days ahead.
CHUCK TODD:
There's a report that says the Turks have agreed to essentially be in charge of security of that airport after August 31st. Is that your understanding?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, there are a number of countries in the region that we're working very closely with that are focused on how to make sure the airport can stay open or reopen after we leave to ensure the flights can come in, flights can go out, there's the necessary security. We've done a lot of technical work on exactly what would be required to keep the airport going. We've shared that with those countries, and we'll have a plan for the way forward.
CHUCK TODD:
We know that the list of Americans who may want to get out is in the hundreds. Do you have a good --
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
-- number of Afghan allies that would like to get out, that would like to be -- to get these special immigrant visas? Do you have a good handle on what that number is?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, we already know this. First, roughly 110,000 people overall have been evacuated. The very significant majority of those people are Afghans. And of those Afghans who've been evacuated, there are thousands upon thousands who are special immigrant visa program members. That is the people who worked side by side directly for our diplomats, directly for our troops over the years. These numbers though are very, very fluid. And we're working very hard to do a full accounting, to get a full tabulation. We'll be able to break down who was able to leave by these different categories. Part of the challenge with the special immigrant visa program participants is that in this --in these 14 days, many of them have not had complete or full documentation. All of that has to be verified, but we'll have a full accounting in the days ahead.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask about this idea that we’re -- some of these lists of people that you're trying to get out of the country you've had to give to the Taliban. And I know you guys have some -- that you think some of this has been a bit overreported or exaggerated. But given the Haqqani network's ties to the Taliban, how can you be sure any list you share of Afghans who helped Americans won't be used for horrendous reasons by the Haqqani network or others?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, it's simply not the case. The idea that we've done anything to put at further risk those that we're trying to help leave the country is simply wrong. And the idea that we shared lists of Americans or others with the Taliban is simply wrong --
CHUCK TODD:
What was shared?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
In specific -- so, in specific instances when you're trying to get a bus or a group of people through, and you need to show a manifest to do that, because particularly in cases where people don't have the necessary credentials on them or documents on them, then you would -- you'll share names on a list of people on the bus so they can be assured that those are people that we're looking to bring in. And by definition, that's exactly what's happened. We've gotten 5,500 American citizens out of Afghanistan. And to the extent that in an individual case with a particular group or a bus to verify that the people on the bus or in that group were people who were supposed to come out, American citizens, especially again, if they lacked the right document with them, that's what we would do. But the idea that we put anyone in any further jeopardy is simply wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
What -- what has been promised to the Taliban for this cooperation? Is it money? Is it -- is it money that we have frozen right now that they perhaps might be able to use for governing?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Nothing has been promised to the Taliban. To the contrary, we have made very clear, and not just us, country upon country around the world have made clear that there are very significant expectations of the Taliban going forward if they're going to have any kind of relationship with the rest of the world. Starting with freedom of travel, but then going on to making sure that they're sustaining the basic rights of their people, including women and girls, making sure that they're making good on commitments they've repeatedly made on counterterrorism and having some inclusivity in governance.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask about the strike on ISIS-K. This was done very quickly. We have resources on the ground. How much harder is it going to be to strike more members of this terrorist group after August 31st?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Let me say this, Chuck. We have the capacity around the world, including in Afghanistan, to take -- to find and to take strikes against terrorists who want to do us harm. And as you know, in country after country, including places like Yemen, like Somalia, large parts of Syria, Libya, places where we don't have boots on the ground on any kind of ongoing basis, we have the capacity to go after people who are trying to do us harm. We'll retain that capacity in Afghanistan.
CHUCK TODD:
What is the mission against ISIS-K? What is the defined mission? Is it everybody who's involved, and that's who we're hunting down, or are you going to try to essentially get rid of this terrorist network in perpetuity?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
If we see anyone who poses a threat to our citizens in the first instance here, and especially if it turns into any kind of outwardly directed threat, which so far is not the case -- ISIS-K is focused on Afghanistan itself -- we will take action. We are, first of all, going to be extremely vigilant about any emergence or re-emergence of a threat that's directed from Afghanistan toward the United States, toward any of our allies and partners. And we're going to make sure that we have the capacity to deal with it.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to close -- you talked about how personal this has been, this tragic terrorist attack. It's not been easy for the parents. And you may have to speak to some of these parents face to face. Steve Nikoui, who is the father of Marine Lance Corporal Kareem Nikoui, one of the soldiers who died in the attack, here's what he said. He said, "They sent my son over there as a paper pusher, and then had the Taliban outside providing security. I blame my own military leaders. Biden turned his back on him. That's it." Obviously, he's grieving, and he's very upset. What are you going to say to these parents that believe it's the American government in some way that let their son down?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, there are no words that I can say that, I think, anyone can say to assuage the grief that a parent is feeling at the loss of their child. Nothing. And if I were in his shoes, probably I'd feel exactly the same way. All I can do is take responsibility for my own actions and do everything possible to continue to bring people out of Afghanistan who want to leave between now and the 31st, and every single day thereafter. That's my -- my responsibility. But I -- as a -- as a parent myself, I feel deeply what he expressed. And all I can say is, I'm deeply, deeply sorry.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Secretary, I know these aren't easy times. Thank you for coming on and sharing the administration's perspective with us.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Thanks, Chuck. Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the retired General H.R. McMaster. He was President Trump's second national security advisor. General McMaster, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
H.R. McMASTER:
Thanks, Chuck. Good to be with you. Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
Good morning. Look, we're coming to the end of our presence in Afghanistan. And when you look back at 20 years, you've worn a few hats when it comes to dealing with either helping to create policy in Afghanistan or enact it. What's been your biggest mistake or biggest miscalculation over 20 years?
H.R. McMASTER:
Well, I think we all share a responsibility for it's not a 20-year war, it's a one-year war fought 20 times over. And what -- the basis for the problems that we've encountered in Afghanistan is certainly the enemies that we've been fighting there, as you can see today. Enemies have a say in the future course of events. And there are consequences when you surrender to a terrorist organization. But it hasn't been a 20-year war. It's been a one-year war fought 20 times over with ineffective strategies based on flawed assumptions, flawed assumptions about the nature of the enemy, flawed assumptions about what was necessary to achieve a sustainable outcome there. And, of course, what's sad about it is this war ended in self-defeat, Chuck. I mean, we had a sustainable effort in place several years ago that, if we had sustained it, we could've prevented what's happening now. But instead what we did, Chuck, is actually, we surrendered to a jihadist organization and assumed that there would be no consequences for that. And we're seeing the consequences today.
CHUCK TODD:
Was the core mistake taking our eye off of Afghanistan and invading Iraq? Did that -- did that distract the Pentagon? Did that distract our diplomats? Did that distract us from the mission, especially considering the reasons we went into Iraq turned out not to be true?
H.R. McMASTER:
Hey, Chuck, there were -- there were a series of mistakes, right? The first was assuming that it might be easy, right, just to depose the Taliban and then something good happens. And so the short term approach we took to what was a long term problem actually lengthened the war and made it more costly. And then when we did reinforce the effort there in 2009, President Obama announced a reinforced security effort and announced the withdrawal of troops on a timeline at the same time, and then said to the Taliban, "We want to negotiate an agreement with you. And here's our schedule for departure." How does that work in war, Chuck? War is a contest of wills. And then I think what we had during the Trump administration was, initially, the first time, we had a sound, sustainable, reasoned approach to Afghanistan in August 2017. And then the president abandoned it. And he doubled down on the same flaws of the Obama administration. I mean, Chuck, how does it make sense to tell them we're leaving, and then say, "We want to negotiate a settlement"? And what that resulted in is concession after concession to the Taliban. And we got nothing for it. And as soon as you set a date, "We're out by May 1st" under the Trump administration, and the numbers of troops we're going to have there, what can you do except essentially effect a surrender? And then to hear this language today, you know, that we're pretending that we can partner with the Taliban for security around the Kabul airport, or we can partner with the Taliban for security against Al Qaeda, when those two organizations are completely intertwined? What I would like to see is our government stop pretending. And a really good way to honor our servicemen and women who gave their lives on a modern-day frontier between barbarism and civilization is to end our self-delusion and confront the reality that this endless war, this forever war, has not ended as -- you know, because we left.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there any way though of, do you think -- it sounds like you believe the Taliban could have been defeated, and it sounds like a lot of other people don't believe that was the case.
H.R. McMASTER:
Well, I do believe it. I think it happened. I mean, the Taliban was unable to accomplish their objectives through the use of force with a relatively small level of troops there. I mean, pick a number -- 8,500, 10,000. But what was important about that number, and a very low cost in connection with casualties and the financial cost associated with it, is preventing what you're seeing happening now, which is the establishment of a terrorist state in Central and South Asia, a terrorist state that is already going to be, and already is, a magnet for jihadist terrorists who pose a threat to all civilized peoples. And also, I think what's really important to recognize about our sustained effort there is that who was doing the fighting against -- against the Taliban and other jihadist terrorist organizations like ISIS-K and like Al Qaeda? It was the Afghans. Our forces there were not directly involved in the fight any longer. They were enabling the Afghans to bear the brunt of the fight. But, Chuck, you know what we did? We delivered --
CHUCK TODD:
But General --
H.R. McMASTER:
-- psychological blow --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
H.R. McMASTER:
-- after psychological blow to the Afghan government and security forces on our way out.
CHUCK TODD:
But let me ask you this. I guess the -- I want to put up something that the Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction, John Sopko, told Voice of America last month. He said, he said this about sort of the American government in general: "We exaggerated, we over-exaggerated. Our generals did. Our ambassadors did. All of our officials did, to go to Congress and the American people about ‘We're just turning the corner.’ We turned the corner so much, we did 360 degrees. We're like a top." And I just heard you just now before I brought this quote up saying, you know, the Afghan security forces were taking the fight. And I want to take you at your word, but we look and we see what happened. And I think a lot of the American public says, "Oh yeah? Really?" Do you understand the skepticism?
H.R. McMASTER:
Well, I do understand the skepticism, but you just have to look at the reality, Chuck, okay? Hey, I agree. Afghanistan was not Denmark, Chuck, right? But it didn't need to be Denmark. Of course, there was corruption in the government. The security forces -- there was corruption in the security forces as well that were hollowing out these institutions as we were trying to build them. But they were on a path to slowly strengthening over time. And what is, I think, most lamentable about the policy under the Trump administration and what the Biden administration doubled down on and failed to reverse is that we actually strengthened the Taliban and weakened the Afghan government and security forces on our way out. Hey, if we were going to leave, Chuck, why didn't we just get the hell out? I mean, why didn't we do that? And so it was just impossible, I think, for the Afghan government to withstand the blows of not being included in the negotiations. And then forcing the Afghan government to release, you know, to release 5,000 of some of the most heinous people on earth who immediately went back to terrorizing the Afghan people. And then to, you know, set the timeline, say, "We're not going to support you," withdraw, you know, the vast majority of our support for them.
CHUCK TODD:
General McMaster, the former -- one of the former national security advisors of President Trump. You wrote a book about Vietnam. I have a feeling we're going to have books about Afghanistan being written for decades as we unpack what went wrong here. General McMaster, thanks for your time and your perspective.
H.R. McMASTER:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, the military, diplomatic and political fallout from this terrible week in Afghanistan. Panel is next. But as we go to break, we want to take a moment to honor those 13 very young American service members who lost their lives in that airport terror attack. Eleven Marines, one Navy medic, one Army sergeant. Many of them were infants at 9/11.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Pentagon Correspondent Courtney Kube Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, Matthew Continetti of The American Enterprise Institute and PBS NewsHour Chief Correspondent Amna Nawaz. All right, Courtney, we are less than 48 hours away. At this point, we are hoping we can get out without another major incident. At this point, is the withdrawal now almost mostly military?
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yes, it is largely. So, I mean, the, the numbers are changing. And I think we have to be really careful relying on the numbers of how many flights are coming and going and how, how full they are. Right now, many of the flights that are leaving, the military flights, are U.S. service members and equipment. Remember, there's a lot of big equipment there. And, while the military and the Pentagon have said they will prioritize lives in these last few days, the reality is they are taking some of that equipment out as they go. The Pentagon though, is going to be increasingly reticent and hesitant to talk about troop numbers on the ground. And that is because of this enduring and very real and scary security threat against the airport right now. It has not diminished. And in fact, it even accelerated over the weekend. We heard President Biden talk about it on Saturday. The military, who I'm speaking with, are very worried about this threat. They are particularly concerned right now about the idea of a vehicle that is packed with explosives driving to the airport or, in a worst case scenario, driving on the airport. Another thing they're really worried about, there are some indications that there might be some sort of rockets, maybe some modified RPGs, and they're very worried that ISIS will try to shoot down an airliner packed with --
CHUCK TODD:
Almost like --
COURTNEY KUBE:
-- evacuees and --
CHUCK TODD:
-- the last plane out?
COURTNEY KUBE:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play this Facebook video from a Marine Corps officer from Thursday. He wants accountability for military leaders. And, in many ways, he may speak for a lot of Americans. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
LT. COL. STUART SCHELLER:
I want to say this very strongly. I have been fighting for 17 years. I am willing to throw it all away to say to my senior leaders, "I demand accountability."
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Amna, he was relieved of his duty for doing that. That's to be expected here. But he's not alone in looking for some accountability here, I think whether it's 20 years of accountability or the last 20 days.
AMNA NAWAZ:
I think that's right. I mean, I know Courtney's been talking to her sources, who are expressing similar sentiment. There's a lot of looking back at history and judging history and the last 20 years and, as General McMaster said, the several wars that were fought in that time, and all of that will continue. In these last 48 hours, I think the focus on the evacuations, the focus on what we are immediately leaving behind is absolutely necessary. I mean, part of this is the U.S. is, as we've seen, handing over control to the same forces they've been fighting for 20 years. They have yet to form a government. People on the ground are terrified. The evacuation was chaotic. Tens of thousands of people feel they're being left behind and they don't have a path out. And that government, you know, this leap of faith that the U.S. government feels they're making by trusting the Taliban to make good on their word, the people on the ground are not making that same leap of faith. They do not trust them. They've seen nothing from the Taliban over the last 20 years that leads them to believe this government's going to be any different on the ground than it was 20 years ago. And so there's a lot of concern. There’s people saying there’s already schools being closed, girls being pulled out of school. There were vengeance killings as the Taliban made their way across the country. There's some money held up, right? The U.S. can say, "You don't have access to your Central Bank reserves." The IMF has withheld billions of dollars the Taliban need to actually govern and not just hold territory this time. But those are some carrots. There are not a lot of sticks if they don't live up to those promises.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, gentlemen, there’s going to be-- I’ve called it, "circular finger pointing" is just beginning --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
-- a little bit. White House to Pentagon, Pentagon to State --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Sure.
CHUCK TODD:
-- Pentagon a little bit to White House --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
There will be.
CHUCK TODD:
-- back and forth. Where does the accountability fall? Who, who’s in line?
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Well, it's on every one of those institutions and Joe Biden Is the president. So, you know, when you're the president and it happens on your watch, you're ultimately accountable. But I, I do think we ought to have a little perspective here. First of all, this was a 20-year war. And second, this is what withdrawal from a war that we did not win looks like. I mean, this is what it -- it's messy. It's awful. The people we have to deal with who are taking over are the people we were fighting. And we don't like it at all. And it's not a, it’s not a pretty thing to look at. It's a tragic thing for a lot of Afghans, for a lot of people certainly, for the 13 service members who lost their lives, and their families. But it doesn’t -- you know, it's never pretty. This would not have been pretty no matter --
CHUCK TODD:
Gene --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
-- what happened.
CHUCK TODD:
-- it just struck me. You used a phrase, and you didn't say, "We lost the war." You said, "This is what a war looks like --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
-- when you don't win." And I agree. I don't know we could say we lost. But we didn't win.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
But we certainly didn't win. We didn't win.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
Biden decided to leave. He decided to leave in the way he left. He left during the middle of the fighting season. The first thing that he might've done differently, Gene, is wait until the winter, when the Taliban go home. And that's when you could extract. The second thing he did is he changed the Trump agreement. The Trump agreement said May 1st. He moved it to September 11th. Then there was, there was public blow-back to that. So he goes, "August 31st." So he already changed the agreement. He could've said, "We're not, we’re going to wait until we get all of the SIVs out, until all of our Afghan partners are out." There are things he could've done differently. Biden wants to fight the larger debate: Was this war worth it? Should we have left? But I think the public right now is looking at his execution of the evacuation. And there, they're judging him harshly.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
But it was a version of the execution though. If you say, "Okay, we're going to wait until the winter," and, and by the way, now we're going to start taking out 50, 60, 70 thousand SIVs and we start flying them out of Bagram or flying them out of Kabul or whatever, that triggers, it seems to me very likely, the same kind of collapsed process that we saw.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
If you hde more troops there instead of the 600 in the airport, it might've gone a little bit more smoothly.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
But we have 2,500 troops there, 3,500 --
AMNA NAWAZ:
I will say you're absolutely right that he inherited this deal from the Trump administration. It was a bad deal. He changed it and changed the dates. There’s a lot of questions about troop levels. I don't think you could've seen the U.S. sending in more troops to have a different kind of evacuation experience. But there were absolutely groups, resettlement groups, refugee groups, veterans’ groups flagging the administration very early this year saying, "We need to start this now for it not to be chaotic."
CHUCK TODD:
Courtney, what, I assume there is -- is there fallout inside of that five rings there? Is there, like, “Is this on us?” Is there any of that self-reflection?
COURTNEY KUBE:
No. The past two weeks have been a Pentagon that I've never seen before. First off, the attack on Thursday -- that had an impact on members of the military and leadership, the Pentagon, like nothing I've ever seen. Obviously, any time there's an attack, service members are killed, yes. This was such a punch to the gut and it had such a dramatic impact on morale, unlike anything I've seen in almost 20 years there. And, and I think that's why we saw something like that Marine lieutenant colonel speaking out. People may not realize, he had 17 years in the military --
CHUCK TODD:
Courtney, this isn't, this isn’t somebody just on a whim on Twitter?
COURTNEY KUBE:
No. And also, he's putting his retirement in jeopardy, which is --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
You said 17 years, right? He’s almost at 20.
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yes, he's less than three years to retirement and putting into retirement. But this had -- I am hearing a lot of finger pointing at other places outside the Pentagon right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, Congress will be the next place where the finger pointing will be under oath. When we come back, Covid's growing fourth wave. Some new information about how you vote and where you live may end up saying a lot about whether you'll be infected. Anthony Fauci joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It is not news that we are experiencing a pandemic of the unvaccinated and that our political divide plays a pretty big role in who is being infected, but now we have a stark illustration of this issue. This is a list that we put together of 30 counties with the highest infection rates in the country, starting with the highest. As of yesterday afternoon, every county, with one exception, voted for President Trump. And most of these counties voted for him by 40 points or more. And when you look at where these counties are, you can see that this fourth wave of Covid has a distinctly Southern flavor, at least for now. Nationally, the seven day average of new cases is now nearly 154,000. That is the highest since late January. So, joining me now, is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet The Press.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you, Chuck. Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with the question of the third shot, booster shot, however you want to reference it. There’s -- on Friday, in the fog of Afghanistan, if you will, there was some confusion about five months versus eight months. Here's what the president said and then Jen Psaki right after.
(BEGIN TAPE)
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The question raised is should it be shorter than eight months. Should it be as little as five months. And that's being discussed. I spoke with Dr. Fauci this morning about that.
JEN PSAKI:
Let me be very clear. The president would rely on any guidance by the CDC and the FDA and its health and medical experts. That guidance continues to be eight months. That has not changed.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Now, the president was meeting with the prime minister of Israel. And we know there's a lot of research that's come out of Israel about this third shot and they have seen -- already have, sort of, turned around their morbidity rate with the third shot, they believe. What is happening here between five months and eight months?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, we're still planning on eight months. That was the calculation we made. This rollout will start on the week of September the 20th. But as we've said all along, Chuck, in the original statement, that's the plan that we have, but we are open to data as they come in. This will have to go through the FDA process and then the advisory committee on immunization practices that advises the CDC. So, right now, we're sticking with eight, but we're totally open to any variation in that based on the data.
CHUCK TODD:
Where did the eight months come from? Because it seemed like all the clinical data -- the trial data was based on six months, not eight. And the only way I got to eight was, well, the WHO asked for a two-month moratorium because they're worried about the global vaccine supply. Where did we get eight months?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah. Well, certainly it was nothing to do with the WHO's moratorium on boosters. That wasn't even in the consideration. As the data accumulated with our own cohorts, Chuck, from the CDC, as we were looking at it, it was only in mid to late July that it became very, very clear that we were starting to see a diminution of waning of protection against infection and the slightest hint, if any, of waning of protection for hospitalization and death. So, it was at that point that we decided we're going to plan to go at the feasible time in September, the week of September the 20th, to start rolling it out. And that's where we got with the eight. As I said, we're sticking with that for now. We're not changing it, but we are very open to new data as it comes in. We're going to be very flexible about it.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Peter Hotez told me the other day that he thought that one of the things we didn't do very well, when he says we, the collective we of messaging, on the vaccines, was he said, you know, this was probably always going to be a three-dose vaccine, that many of our vaccines are three-dose vaccines, but this one is a little different because the second dose we decided to do so quickly. Is he -- do you concur with that opinion?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Oh, I think that Peter Hotez is right on the money. We were dealing, Chuck, with a total emergency situation. If we had the grace to be able to do this in a very slow, measured manner, the Phase 2 study would have given various intervals of dosing. It is entirely conceivable that when all is said and done the standard regime will be a three-dose shot for the mRNA and a two-dose shot for J&J. But if you go back when we were doing this, we were really fighting against time. We were having to save lives and we needed to do it very quickly. So, I don't think there was anything errant or wrong in the way we started it with two doses, but at least now we're being very open and flexible that we may need that third dose. In fact, I'm certain we're going to need that third dose, looking at the data that we're seeing.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about, sort of, where we are in this fourth wave. School has been essentially open now in some of the country for almost as long as a month. Cases among children have doubled basically since the start of August to 20 days in. Over a 19-day period, we saw cases in children double. With basically the rest of the country starting school essentially this coming week, where do you see this wave going? And are we headed for basically more increases in cases as school and this virus circulates?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, that's possible, Chuck, but I believe we can avoid it. I mean, you can avoid it by protecting the children. We want to get them back in the classroom. I mean, we've been through that now for a while, the deleterious effects of keeping kids physically out of the class regarding psychological, mental, and social development. But we want to do it safely. And there is a safe way to do that. You surround the children with people who are eligible to be vaccinated and who get vaccinated. Teachers, school personnel, the students from 12 and older who are eligible to be vaccinated right now, get them vaccinated. And then abide by the CDC recommendations of having masks in the school and do other things to mitigate. And that could be ventilation, that could be testing, that could be a number of things. We understand the risk, but we want to safely get the children back in school. And I believe it can be done, but as you know, there's a lot of issues there. When you try to get mandating of masks, there's pushback from certain authorities, which I feel is really unfortunate because it's going to really endanger the health of the children when we do that.
CHUCK TODD:
You made a comment earlier this week that you thought we could have some return to normalcy by spring of '22. In the winter of '20, you thought maybe we could get there by the spring of '21 or maybe by the end of the summer of '21. Look, we know all of this has been dependent on folks getting vaccinated. But are we past the point of defeating this pandemic? Are we now -- is it now an endemic and we're going to have to just all learn to live with it?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, in some respects, yes, but mostly no. And let me tell you why I say no, Chuck, because we have within our power the wherewithal to really suppress this outbreak, at least in the United States. We want to do it globally and we're playing an important role in that, but with regard to the United States, we still have about 80 million people who are eligible to be vaccinated who are not vaccinated. You showed that in the chart in the beginning of this segment when you showed the infection and the vaccination rates in certain parts of the country. If we really got the overwhelming majority of those 80 million people vaccinated, you would see a dramatic turnaround in the dynamics of the outbreak. So, it really is up to us. We have the power to do it, we just need to do it.
CHUCK TODD:
So, what you're saying is right now we're a victim of our own polarization.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
I believe so, Chuck. I've been saying that and you and I have discussed this on your show multiple times. I mean, to me, it just is astounding. We're dealing with a public health crisis and there's still divisiveness about things like mandating and masks and things like that. Let's crush this outbreak and put that divisiveness and those differences aside.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, this seems like it shouldn't be that hard to rally people to this message, but it has been very difficult. Dr. Fauci, as always, sir, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise and perspective with us. I much appreciate it. When we come back --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you, Chuck. Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- we're going to have an update of extremely dangerous Hurricane Ida as it heads towards the Louisiana coast.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We're now going to get an update right now on Hurricane Ida from our friend, Today Show co-host Al Roker. He's already in New Orleans, which is in the track of this storm. And Al, this looks like a monster storm that's coming. What can you tell us?
AL ROKER:
All right. Sorry. I guess we lost communications, Chuck. Right now, we are looking at imminent landfall of this storm. Winds of 150 miles per hour are our right now forecast, but we expect landfall in the next couple of hours. They will be at 155 miles per hour. Storm surges upwards of 15 to 16 feet, 20 inches of rain or more with this system. The eyewall, 15 miles wide with 150-mile-per hour winds. It's basically a 15-mile wide F3 tornado. That's what's coming into this area. And so as this system comes in, people have hunkered down. They are doing their best, but I'm telling you, Chuck, the difference between a category one storm and a category four as far as the wind destruction, over 330 times more powerful. So we are waiting for this to make landfall. And once it makes landfall, it's going to slowly make its way inland, up through the Mississippi River Valley, Ohio River Valley, and then into the Mid-Atlantic and northeast later on this week -- a powerful storm that is going to wreak real havoc. Chuck?
CHUCK TODD:
That's for sure. Al Roker, get out of that unsafe weather there. Thank you, Al. And to think this is all happening on the anniversary of Katrina. When we come back, the political battle over masks and vaccine mandates.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. In the -- underneath all the Afghanistan news, we've had a lot of Covid fallout. And obviously, when it comes to Covid politics, I think Florida is ground zero for these battles here. And this is a case where Ron DeSantis, who has been sort of the face of Florida's response for obvious reasons and then some, is the tide turning against him? Here's Politico: Florida Starts Turning on DeSantis. About 16,000 people are hospitalized, child infection rates have shot up. School districts, even in Republican strongholds, have rebelled against DeSantis’s anti-mask mandate. And cruise lines are resisting DeSantis's vaccine passport ban. Even his recent poll numbers are slipping. And I've got to put this up, Matthew, which is, fellow Republicans in Florida are not necessarily coming to DeSantis's defense. Here's a story in The Miami Herald about both Rubio and Scott, who both might want to run for president. Rubio's saying, "I think the masking debate is a waste of time because only a vaccine surge is going to turn back a hospitalization surge." And then Rick Scott, "I don't believe the government should be mandating things. I believe the private sector has the right to make their own decisions." What do you make of them backing away from DeSantis?
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
There's definitely some 2024 politics involved there, Chuck. All three, Scott, Rubio, and DeSantis, are rumored to want to run for president. Now I'll say this: one lesson I had to draw is how quickly the politics of coronavirus can change, right? I mean, DeSantis, remember at the outbreak of the pandemic, was in a similar bad political situation. He then recovered, right? And he seemed to be able to do no wrong. And now it's changed again. And the number I'm looking at is independents. They're turning against him. And that's worrisome for a governor who has to run for reelection before he can think about running for president. But, of course, independents are also turning against President Biden on this issue. So you have to ask: How do you address this political problem?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, this is the thing. We have to get rid of Covid. The public is upset and frustrated and they're going to take it out on everybody.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Exactly. They're upset and frustrated. But Covid is the reality. The Delta variant is the reality. It is a game changer. It's changed the game for DeSantis. It is arguably changing the game for Biden. It's changed the game for everybody because it's so easily transmissible. And here we are, everybody going back to school. You know, people wanting desperately, thinking we were going to go into the fall and have a normal fall, and we're not. We simply -- this is not normal. And it's not going to be normal for a while.
CHUCK TODD:
I had somebody tell me, Amna, that, you know, at some point, if you're not telling the blunt truth, you're going to get penalized for this in the long run.
AMNA NAWAZ:
I mean, you can't politicize something that people are seeing show up in their schools and show up in their neighborhoods. And we have had this public health conversation in a political cage match, rather than just addressing the pandemic as a country, as a whole. So DeSantis dodged the bullet in the first wave really because it was the Alpha variant. Delta variant is different. Twice as likely to be hospitalized. People are seeing this show up. When your kids are sick, when your parents are in the hospital, politics go out the window. So the longer this goes on, the longer the pandemic does roll on. I think the politics are going to start to wane because it's no longer about freedom of speech, my right to wear a mask or not wear a mask. It's about, "How do I get my life back to normal?"
CHUCK TODD:
You know, the vaccine mandates could help things along. One of the big tests is going to be in the military.
COURTNEY KUBE:
That's right. We’re expecting -- we're going to get some of the more -- the details specifically about how the services are going to roll out this mandatory vaccine. I think one of the big things that everyone is watching for is -- I mean look -- right now, many members of the military are vaccinated. The numbers among active duty are pretty good. They're in, like, 70% or so. But the National Guard, it's not the same. The numbers are much lower in there. When it becomes mandatory, there will be an option for religious exemption, if someone wants to do that. And then if a servicemember says that they don't want to get the vaccine, they'll be counseled, their chain of command, they'll talk to medical professionals. They're going to try to work with them. But at the end of the day, this is a lawful order that they are getting. They will have to get the vaccine as they are told to. And we will see -- in the coming months -- we will see cases of people who do not want to get it.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
There's a whole bunch of other vaccines they have to have, right?
COURTNEY KUBE:
Seventeen of them.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
So this is not like a new thing --
COURTNEY KUBE:
No.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
-- for the military.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there a better way to communicate to the unvaccinated, Matthew?
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
Probably not. That's why mandates are so important. And when I look at some of the behavior of Republican governors, Republicans are supposed to be for the private sector, right? So if companies and employers start mandating vaccines, I think Republicans should say, "You know what? Get your jab. That's the only way we get out of this pandemic --"
CHUCK TODD:
By the way --
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
-- is getting vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
-- I've noticed that Republican governors, some are wanting to go back to their private sector roots, and some are wanting to appease the “own the lib” wing.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
It's the example of the many divides within the Republican party and conservative movement right now.
CHUCK TODD:
That for sure.
COURTNEY KUBE:
At the heart of this, the only way you really address it is get at the misinformation and disinformation that is pervasive about vaccines right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I think this is our first major impact of our broken information ecosystem. Anyway, that's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. If you are in the path of Hurricane Ida, please take all the steps to make sure you and your family are safe. Hunker down. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.