KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: departing. FBI Director Chris Wray announces he’ll resign next month, clearing a path for President-elect Donald Trump's pick, Kash Patel, to lead the FBI.
KASH PATEL:
We look forward to a very smooth transition at the FBI, and I'll be ready to go on day one.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
It’s time for a fresh start at the FBI.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
I have concerns just because of his agenda that he has expressed in the past.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will the Senate confirm this Trump loyalist who has published an “enemies list?” Plus: pardon power. As President Biden prepares to exit the stage, his decision to pardon his son is sparking backlash from Democrats and former White House aides
ANITA DUNN:
I do not agree with the way it was done. I don’t agree with the timing. And I don’t agree, frankly, with the attack on our judicial system.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My guests this morning: Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. And, new hope. After the fall of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, there’s renewed optimism in the search for American journalist Austin Tice who went missing in Syria over a decade ago.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We believe he’s alive. We think we can get him back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to Austin’s mother Debra Tice. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Ryan Nobles, Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The all out push is intensifying to get President-elect Trump's cabinet picks confirmed, from high stakes meetings on Capitol Hill to public outings with Mr. Trump himself. On Saturday, the president-elect appeared in a suite at the Army-Navy football game with his choice to be defense secretary, former Fox News host and veteran Pete Hegseth and his pick to be national intelligence director, former Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. Hegseth has been accused of sexual assault, which he denies, and has been challenged to explain past statements about women in combat. After meeting for a second time with Iowa Senator Joni Ernst, the first female combat veteran to serve in the Senate, Hegseth praised female troops.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PETE HEGSETH:
I also want an opportunity here to clarify comments that have been misconstrued, that I somehow don't support women in the military. Some of our greatest warriors, our best warriors out there, are women who serve, raise their right hand to defend this country and love our nation.
REPORTER:
Mr. Hegseth, do you believe that gay people should be allowed to serve in the military?
PETE HEGSETH:
Yes.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now it comes as some Republican senators say they are facing blowback after raising questions about President-elect Trump's picks.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REPORTER:
Do you feel like there's a pressure campaign against people who even throw out concerns?
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
I do, and I think that that's a two-edged sword.
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI:
Everybody toe the line. Everybody line up. We got you here, and if you want to survive, you better be good. Don't get on Santa's naughty list here, because we will primary you. I mean, we are seeing that play out in real time right now with the nominees. And my friend Joni Ernst, who is probably one of the more conservative principled Republican leaders in the, in the Senate right now, is being hung out to dry for not being good enough.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Also this week, President Biden issued a flurry of pardons and commutations for nonviolent offenders, commuting the sentences of almost 1,500 people and pardoning 39 others, the biggest single day act of clemency. It comes two weeks after the president pardoned his son Hunter Biden. In a stunning twist, former senior White House aide Anita Dunn criticized the timing and justification of the Hunter Biden pardon.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ANITA DUNN:
I absolutely agree with the president’s decision here. I do not agree with the way it was done. I don’t agree with the timing. And I don’t agree, frankly, with the attack on our judicial system.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Also making waves this week - FBI Director Christopher Wray told bureau employees he'll step aside before Mr. Trump takes office, with nearly three years left in his ten-year term, bowing to the reality that the president-elect had publicly declared his desire to replace him.
[BEGIN TAPE]
CHRISTOPHER WRAY:
In my view, this is the best way to avoid dragging the bureau deeper into the fray while reinforcing the values and principles that are so important in how we do our work.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Kash Patel, a former federal prosecutor who President-elect Trump has picked to replace him, has called for the agency's headquarters to be dismantled.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KASH PATEL:
The FBI’s footprint has gotten so fricken big–and the biggest problem that the FBI has had has come out of its intel shops. I’d break that component out of it. I’d shut down the FBI Hoover building on Day One and reopen it the next day as a museum of the deep state.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Patel names roughly 60 people in his book as being part of the, quote, deep state. I asked President-elect Trump about that list in our one-on-one interview last week.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you want Kash Patel to launch investigations into people on that list?
PRES. ELECT TRUMP:
No. I mean, he's going to do what he thinks is right. And I will --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think that's right?
PRES. ELECT TRUMP:
-- and I will tell you --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think that’s right, sir?
PRES. ELECT TRUMP:
If they think that somebody was dishonest or crooked or a corrupt politician, I think he probably has an obligation to do it, but --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you going to direct him to do it?
PRES. ELECT TRUMP:
No. Not at all. Not at all.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. Senator Graham, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN.LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:Thank you so much for being here. I want to start overseas in Syria. I know that you have been quite focused on the conflict there, the fact that President Bashar Al Assad has been overturned by rebels, creating a power vacuum there. I know you've expressed some concerns that there could be a resurgence of ISIS in Syria. I want to ask you, President elect Trump has said the U.S. should, quote, “not get involved in Syria.” Is that the right approach, senator?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:Well, I'm - leave it up to the Syrians to form their new government, what kind of country they want to be to a point, but we do have an interest in preventing ISIS from coming back on the battlefield. For five years, they reigned terror in America, all over Europe, slaughtering people. ISIS fighters are killing machines. They want to purify Islam. They want to take down the King of Jordan, the king of Saudi Arabia. They want to replace the UAE with a theocracy. You don't want these people in charge of the Mideast. They want to drive us out of the Mideast and they want to destroy our friends in Israel. There are 50,000 ISIS fighters under the control of Kurdish allies of the United States in northeastern Syria. It is in our national security interest they do not break out of jail and re-establish the caliphate. It is in our national security interest that we help the Kurds who destroyed the caliphate on our behalf. We lost about four soldiers, God bless them, in destroying the caliphate. I do not want ISIS to break out of jail. Turkey is putting pressure on the Kurds in northeastern Syria. We need a demilitarized zone. Turkey has legitimate concerns about some of these Kurdish elements. But if Kurds – if Turkey attacks the Kurds and these ISIS fighters break out of jail, it's a nightmare for us. It's a nightmare for Syria. It's a nightmare for the world. That cannot happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Graham, I know you're going to continue to track that situation closely, and whoever becomes the next defense secretary will inherit the crisis in Syria as well as a range of other crises on the world stage. You said last week that some of the allegations against Pete Hegseth, President-elect Trump's pick to become the next Defense Secretary, were “very disturbing.” Senator, let me ask you, at this point in time, are you prepared to vote yes on Pete Hegseth and do you think he has enough support to get confirmed?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, I'm in a good place with Pete, unless something I don't know about comes out. These allegations are disturbing, but they're anonymous. I asked him point blank, “were you drunk in a bar and got up and said, ‘let's kill all the Muslims?’” He said no. There's one allegation of a police report about sexual assault, that person has the right to come forward to the committee, but about mismanagement of money, about, having a drinking problem and saying inappropriate things. All of these are anonymous allegations. He's given me his side of the story. It makes sense to me. I believe him. Unless somebody is willing to come forward, I think he's going to get through. Remember, Kavanaugh. Five people accused Justice Kavanaugh of misconduct. Three were outright lies. The other two, I think, were not credible. So we're not going to let that happen to Pete. You're not going to destroy his nomination based on anonymous sources. People have to come forward and make credible allegations, and we'll see if they do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Pete Hegseth did sign a non-disclosure agreement with this person who came forward to accuse him of sexual misconduct. Do you want to see that? Should that type of information be released?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, he said -- Yeah, he told me he would release her from that agreement. Yeah, I mean, just think about what we're talking about. I'd want to know if anybody nominated for a high-level job in Washington legitimately assaulted somebody. I've known Pete for years. I met him in Afghanistan. I've heard nothing but good things about his service over there. He's a friend. The Pete Hegseth I know, this is not a problem I've been aware of. However, if people have an allegation to make, come forward and make it like they did in Kavanaugh. We’ll decide whether or not it's credible. Right now, he's being tried by anonymous sources. That will not stand.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, how do you respond to your Republican colleagues? You heard Lisa Murkowski there at the top, Thom Tillis say that basically it feels like there is a pressure campaign against them to get on board with President-elect Trump's pick.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, well, that's true of everything we do up here. You have a right to petition your government. I get pressured all the time to do this or do that. I'm pretty consistent. I vote for almost every nominee. I think I voted against one or two presidential Cabinet picks since I've been up here, because I believe every president deserves the right to pick their Cabinet. The people have to be qualified, they have to have good character. Those things are all part of the process. But my predisposition is to support presidential nominations, just not for Republicans, but for Democrats. So at the end of the day, yeah, people will push you to do things up here. It's up to you to resist. I feel very comfortable in the way I do my job. You can have your say with me and I will listen. But I'm going to do what I think is best for the country, and that's have a process that works.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the FBI, senator. President-elect Trump has picked Kash Patel to lead the FBI. Of course, Christopher Wray did announce he's resigning three years before his term ends. Here's what you said on this program the last time Donald Trump was choosing an FBI director. Look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
He has a duty and obligation to pick somebody beyond reproach, outside the political lane. I think he'll do that. I hope he'll do that. I would encourage the president to pick somebody we can all rally around, including those who work in the FBI.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, is Kash Patel beyond reproach and someone that everyone can rally around?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM
Well, I think you were talking about what he should do the last time. Look, look, look what's happened since the last time. The FBI, in the eyes of conservatives, has become sort of a very biased organization. The Hunter laptop was real. Right before the election of 2020, the intelligence community, including the FBI, suppressed that story. Crossfire Hurricane, run by the FBI, was a joke, was a political effort to take Trump down using false information generated by somebody connected to Russia. The Steele dossier was a lie. People used it to get warrants based on faulty information. So, the FBI we talked about then has changed. So what do I want in an FBI director now? Somebody that can clean it up. Get back to the job of fighting crime. Don't have your thumb on the political scale. Make sure it's not used as a political weapon against people that you have a beef with. We don't want to go back to the days of J. Edgar Hoover. What we want to do is have an FBI that's going to call, call balls and strikes, and it's going to take somebody to clean out the place.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you know, I guess what I'm asking about is bipartisan support. Christopher Wray was confirmed by a vote of 92 to five. Are you concerned about President-elect Trump putting forward someone who might not have that type of bipartisan support?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I can't stress to you enough that when I was a young, young person, I wanted to be an FBI agent. I'd watch it every Sunday. It was a great show. I admire the FBI, but it's way off track. Comey was a disaster. They used the Steele dossier to get warrants against American citizens. That was fabricated. They accused President Trump of being a Russian agent when there was no credible evidence to suggest otherwise. They have come after people in the pro-life community. They have suppressed information that would have been relevant to 2020. The laptop was real. They said it was false. 50 intel people signed a letter saying that the laptop was Russian disinformation. None of us trust these people anymore.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, a little bit of a lightning round because we have two more questions to get to. President-elect Trump told me –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Okay.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– he thinks the members of the January 6th Committee should go to jail. Do you agree with that statement?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. That was very clear and concise. Let's move on. Then I want to ask you about –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, you said lightning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, I appreciate that and I appreciate that. I want to ask you about Dreamers. Because the President-elect told me he wants to work with Democrats on a deal to protect Dreamers. Do you believe Dreamers will have a path to legal status by the end of President-elect Trump's second term?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Only if we clean up the border. I was on the Gang of Eight bill doing comprehensive immigration. I've been on every Dreamer bill there is. But what’s happened under President Biden, you've allowed 13 million people to come in here illegally. Until we deport people here illegally, why would you legalize an – if you legalize one person now there would be a run on the border. There will be no legalization. There will be no Dreamer bill until we lock our border down. And the number one job for the budget committee in the United States Senate is to pass a border security bill on day one. I want to cut taxes, but that comes later. To my friends in the House, we're playing Russian roulette with our national security. Terrorists are all over the place trying to get into the country, 250 people die a day of fentanyl poisoning. What we will do in the Senate is come up with a border bill supported by Stephen Miller and President Trump, to lock down the border, create agents to deport people, bed space so they don't have to be released, and finish the wall. That's what we're going to do. If we don't do that first, it's national security malpractice. Secure the border first. Any legalization has to come after you secure your border.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we got it all in. Senator Graham, thank you very much. I really appreciate your --
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you. Merry Christmas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Merry Christmas to you. Thanks for doing the lightning round with me. Appreciate it very much. And when we come back, Senator Bernie Sanders joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Great to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's great to have you here. Let's start off by talking about the decision of FBI Director Christopher Wray to announce his resignation three years before the end of his term. Do you think that that was the right decision, Senator?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I'm a little bit nervous about it. You know, when Trump talks about sending to jail people who were on that January 6th Committee, that sounds like being a tin-pot dictator. So I would hope that we have an FBI and a Justice Department that protects the civil liberties of the American people and does its best to protect American democracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we know the White House is considering potential pre-emptive pardons of those who've clashed with President-elect Trump. In light of what the president-elect said to me that, yes, he does think that members of the January 6th Committee should go to jail, do you think that Mr. Biden should issue pre-emptive pardons for the entire January 6th Committee?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think he might want to consider that very seriously. Look, that is an outrageous statement. This is what authoritarianism is all about. It's what dictatorship is all about. You do not arrest elected officials who disagree with you, who undertake an investigation. So all of us – And I would tell you, Kristen, I think there are a lot of Republicans – you just heard Lindsey Graham make that statement – I think that idea of Trump is not going to go very far. It is so – quite outrageous.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It was notable to hear Senator Lindsey Graham say “No,” point blank, when I asked if they should go to jail. Let me ask you about President Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter. A former Biden senior advisor, Anita Dunn, said she agrees with the decision to pardon him. She disagrees with how it was carried out, the criticism of the Justice Department. And I want to remind you of what we heard from President Biden himself on this topic earlier this year. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DAVID MUIR:
Will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Yes.
DAVID MUIR:
And have you ruled out a pardon for your son?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Yes.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I said I'd abide by the jury decision. And I will do that. And I will not pardon him.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, was it the right decision for the country to pardon Hunter Biden?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think two things. When you have his opponents going after his family, as a father, as a parent, I think we can all understand Biden trying to protect his son and his family. On the other hand, I think the precedent being set is kind of a dangerous one. It's a very wide-open pardon which could under different circumstances lead to problems in terms of future presidents.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think he could his legacy with this pardon, Senator?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think his legacy is a strong legacy. I think President Biden on domestic policies has been perhaps the most progressive president in American history since FDR. And I think the economy today in many ways is in very strong shape. But I do believe as President Trump comes into office, we have got to understand, Kristen – and this is something I feel very strongly about. And it's not talked about enough. We are moving rapidly into an oligarchic form of society. Never before in American history have so few billionaires, so few people, had so much wealth and so much power. Never before has there been so much concentration of ownership, sector after sector, power of Wall Street. And never before in American history – and we better talk about this – have the people on top had so much political power. We can't go around the world saying, "Oh, well, you know, in Russia, Putin has an oligarchy." Well, we got our oligarchy here, too. And in this last election, in both parties, billionaires spent huge amounts of money to elect their candidates. Now here in the state of Vermont, we believe, we have town meetings, one person, one vote. That's democracy, not billionaires buying elections. Those are the issues we got to focus on. We got to rebuild the middle class. Sixty percent of our people living paycheck to paycheck. We're the only major country on Earth not to guarantee health care to all people. Many seniors are struggling, high rates of childhood poverty. So, I look forward to working with President Trump when he has ideas that are going to help the working class. We will vigorously oppose him if he wants to attack democracy or women's rights to control their own bodies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I want to ask you about one of the issues that you cited that you care deeply about. You obviously chair the Senate Health Committee. I want to get your reaction to the horrific shooting of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Your colleague, Senator Elizabeth Warren, said this.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Violence is never the answer. This guy gets a trial who’s allegedly killed the CEO of UnitedHealth. But you can only push people so far and then they start to take matters into their own hands.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Warren quickly clarified. She said, “Violence is never the answer. Period. I should have been much clearer that there is never a justification for murder.” My big-picture question for you though, Senator: Is this the right time in the wake of this horrific murder to be talking about health care policy?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, Elizabeth – I – Elizabeth Warren obviously understands killing and murder and shooting somebody in the back is totally unacceptable. But what I think has happened in the last few months is that what you have seen rising up is people's anger at a health insurance industry which denies people the health care that they desperately need while they make billions and billions of dollars in profit. So, killing anybody, shooting somebody in the back who was the father of two, is outrageous. And it’s unacceptable. Nobody, nobody should applaud it. I know Senator Warren did not. But I think what we need to ask ourselves when we talk about health care, is why we are the only major country on Earth not to guarantee health care to all people, why we have a life expectancy which is significantly lower than in other countries, why working-class people die five to 10 years shorter than the people on top. So, Kristen, I feel very strongly about this, and I think the time is long overdue for us to guarantee health care to every man, woman and child, especially at a time when we're spending twice as much per capita on health care as the people of every other nation. The goal of health care is not to make drug companies and insurance companies phenomenally rich, it is to guarantee quality care to all of our people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about another topic, obviously very important to working-class voters: the minimum wage. In my one-on-one interview with President-elect Trump, I asked him if he would consider raising the minimum wage. It’s been at $7.25 since 2009. He acknowledged it is too low, senator. He also said it’s quite complicated to raise the federal minimum wage, but do you think you can work with President-elect Trump and try to get a deal on raising the minimum wage?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I surely hope so. It is – I tried, I think, two years ago, to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. We got zero. Not one Republican supported it. We ended up with 42 votes. Look, a $7.25 per hour minimum wage is an absolute disgrace. We have millions of people in this country who are working for starvation wages that cannot afford housing, that cannot afford to adequately feed their kids. So yes, we have got to raise the minimum wage. I would suggest it to be 17 bucks an hour, but I hope that we can work in a bipartisan way to finally accomplish that goal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Senator, I have to ask you about this story that has captured the country's attention, these reports of reported drones flying over New Jersey, other parts of the East Coast. A Biden administration official said, quote, "There's been a slight overreaction to these reports." I wonder, what do you make of the Biden administration's reaction so far? Are you satisfied by the administration's reaction?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I honestly don't know anything more about that than what I read in the papers. Sorry, can't give you great insight on that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you concerned though?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Am I concerned? Yes, I guess. You know, I don't know. What can I tell you? Yes, I'm concerned.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, RFK Jr. is going to be on Capitol Hill this week. He's talked about food safety. I know that's something that you have said you're interested in.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Yep.
KRISTEN WELKER:
He's also a vaccine skeptic. Senator, where are you on RFK Jr. and his potential confirmation?
BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think I look forward to sitting down and talking with him. Obviously, vaccines, whether it's polio or Covid, have saved millions and millions of lives, and I strongly support vaccines. On the other hand, what I will tell you, and we had a hearing on this recently, is the food industry, through their processed foods, are helping to cause obesity in this country, cause diabetes in these countries. We have epidemics in our country in terms of diabetes and obesity, and I think we got to tell the food industry, “Stop making our kids overweight and causing all kinds of health problems.”
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you open to voting yes on RFK Jr., Senator?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
The process, you know – There is a process. I'm going to sit down. I'll talk to him. We're going to have a hearing on it, and it's premature to say how I will vote on him, or I think, how anybody should vote, unless you hear from the nominees.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. So not ruling it out. We'll continue to stay in touch with you about that and all of these other topics. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back the search in Syria for American journalist Austin Tice who has been missing in Syria since 2012. His mother Debra Tice joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. American journalist Austin Tice has been missing in Syria since 2012. His family has renewed hope he will be found now that Assad's dictatorship has been overthrown. Here's what President Biden said last Sunday.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
We are mindful that there are Americans in Syria, including those who reside there, as well as Austin Tice, who was taken captive more than 12 years ago. We remain committed to returning him to his family.
REPORTER:
What does the U.S. know about where Austin Tice might be and if he’s safe?
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
We believe he's alive. We think we can get him back, but we have no direct evidence for that yet. And Assad should be held accountable.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Debra Tice, Austin's mother. Welcome to Meet the Press, Mrs. Tice. Thank you for being here. We are so sorry for what you and your family have been going through for the past 12 years.
DEBRA TICE:
Well, thank you so much for having me here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's an honor to have you here. Let's start off by talking about this extraordinary moment. Rebels have overturned the Assad regime. I know some in your family feel like this is a turning point. How do you feel right now about your chances of finding Austin?
DEBRA TICE:
Well, when we first came into the city, we met with the State Department, we met with the White House. And, you know, it was Saturday night, when this happened, when they breached Damascus. And, for us, you know, this kind of chaos, for us it represented a huge opening, a huge opportunity. And, especially when people started going into the prisons, finding their families, you know, there was a man that had been held in silence for 34 years and he was reunited with his family, and so, you know, we just – we’re just really excited about being a reunited family.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you have information that suggests that he is alive?
DEBRA TICE:
Austin was born alive and he's been alive ever since then. So, I've never had any doubt about that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
NBC News's Richard Engel visited one of the prisons that you just referenced. He spoke to someone who was held in this prison, who said he was kept in the cell right across from Austin, and he saw him in 2012. We're looking at some of that video, right now, Mrs. Tice. It's just extraordinary to see some of the drawings on the walls. When you see this video, what goes through your mind?
DEBRA TICE:
Well, I think that Sahar had said that he was with Austin in 2022.
KRISTEN WELKER:
2022, excuse me. Yes, 2022.
DEBRA TICE:
Yeah. And we were able to verify that. He was. As far as – you know, of course, we have incredible respect for the people that are going into the cells in the prisons. That must be very challenging. But we do, we do have some feelings about what Richard saw. And we're just, we’re just so glad that he went in there. And we’re so glad that he filmed it. And it mattered. It mattered to us, hugely.
KRISTEN WELKER:
This is very significant. You're saying you have also confirmed that you believe Austin was there in 2022?
DEBRA TICE:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Syria obviously has this new rebel group that has taken over. Have you been in touch with any of the new leadership within Syria? They've told the U.S. government they're trying to find Austin.
DEBRA TICE:
Well, we haven't engaged with them, but we work very closely with Hostage Aid Worldwide. And they are on the ground. And so, we ask people, if they have any information, at all, that they reach out to Hostage Aid Worldwide because they are the ones that we've been working with. They have had a huge campaign in Syria and Lebanon about Austin, asking for information about Austin. And so, now they're on the ground. And they are ready. They know, they know what to do when they find him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
They are on the ground. The Biden administration has said it's doing everything it can to bring Austin home. And yet, based on what we've been told, there aren't U.S. officials in Damascus right now, actively searching for Austin. Do you think there should be? What do you make of that?
DEBRA TICE:
Well, the U.S. government has made the decision that they're not going into Damascus. So, my feeling is, if they don't want to be there, they shouldn't be there. And the people that are there are the people that are determined. And there are – you know, I mean, Richard Engel is there. Other journalists are there. Hostage Aid Worldwide is there. They are determined to be looking. They are going into the cells. They're going into some really deep and dark places. And, obviously, they are compelled to be there. And the U.S. is not, so–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should the U.S. government be there?
DEBRA TICE:
What do you think?
KRISTEN WELKER:
We'll take your silence as your answer, there. You know, there was this really remarkable moment, this week, where another American, Travis Timmerman was found wandering on the streets, the outskirts of Damascus. Many thought, for a moment, this could be your son, Austin. Of course, it was not. How did that moment unfold for you?
DEBRA TICE:
So, when I go to sleep, I silence my phone and I really go to sleep. My children don't do that. So, my oldest daughter came into my room, at 4:25, and said, "Mom. You know, we have this video. You need to look at it. We don't think it's Austin, but a lot of people think it's Austin. So, we want you to look and see if it's Austin." And, you know, I'm kind of waking up out of the fog. And, you know, I took a glance and I said, "No. That is not Austin." She said, "Yeah. I know. No, Mom, it's not Austin, but we had to wake you up. We had to ask you about it." And then, of course, we had so many people reaching out, "This is so great. What a wonderful day." And so, it's almost like having a rehearsal, you know. Of – of just an inkling of what it's going to really feel like, when it is Austin walking free.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did it feel like a moment of false hope? I know it was a fleeting moment before you looked at that photo. But, even in that split second, did it feel like you had false hope?
DEBRA TICE:
Well, the way that I've been feeling about the people that I see coming out, and even Travis, is, you know, that feeling where, as humans, we share joy, right? We share suffering, too, but we share joy. And so, just seeing these families reunited, think about Travis's family being reunited with him, you know? What incredible joy. And we can share that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you want people to know about Austin, as you sit here today? And can you explain to people how you have kept going, how you've been so strong for more than 12 years now?
DEBRA TICE:
Austin Tice, let's see. He has a very strong will, he always has. He has a huge joy of life. He's very much a fully alive person. He was in his first year of law school and he was compelled to go into the Marines. And he's just a man of honor. If he's, if he’s called to do something, he's going to do it, all the way. That's his personality. He was in D.C. at 9/11. And he experienced that. He saw the Pentagon burning. And he just took it on, as, you know, "I have an obligation to serve my country."
KRISTEN WELKER:
And so he continued to do so with his decision to go to Syria. We are going to pray for his safe return, as soon as possible–
DEBRA TICE:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
-- and that reunion that I know you hold in your head and your heart. Debra Tice, it is an honor to have you here. Thank you, so much.
DEBRA TICE:
It is –
KRISTEN WELKER:
We really appreciate it.
DEBRA TICE:
– so wonderful to be here with you, Kristine (sic). Thank you so much for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for coming here.
DEBRA TICE:
I really appreciate it. And I'll be back with Austin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we cannot wait for that moment. Thank you so much, Debra Tice. And, when we come back: Presidential pardons for family members, is it ever appropriate? Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. New polls this week show low approval for President Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter, a decision made earlier this month despite repeated promises he wouldn't grant it. A similar controversy surrounded President Bill Clinton in 2001 after a string of pardons, including one for a fugitive from justice, and another for his brother Roger, who faced drug charges. Days after those pardons, the late Senator Joe Lieberman joined this broadcast to share his thoughts on presidential clemency.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN:
The Constitution Article 2 gives the president an unlimited power of pardon and reprieve, but it seems to me that when you exercise this power the best thing to do is to do it according to procedures. And when there's not consultation with the pardon’s attorney at the Justice Department or with the prosecutors who prosecuted the case, then people are going to second guess the decision of the president.
TIM RUSSERT:
How about a legislation or sense of the Senate resolution which says, "These are the procedures that should be used in granting a presidential pardon?"
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN:
Well, you know, that's an interesting idea. I think the important question is: is there something more Congress can do to try to express through ourselves the will of the American people about a procedure for issuing pardons?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, with just 36 days until a change of power in Washington, are Republican senators facing increased pressure to back Trump's cabinet picks? The panel is next.
ANNOUNCER:
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KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Ryan Nobles; Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; Ashley Etienne, former Communications Director for Vice President Kamala Harris; and Peggy Noonan, columnist for the Wall Street Journal and author of the new book “A Certain Idea of America.” Peggy, we've got the new book right here. Congratulations. We're going to get to it. Let's start off, though, Ryan, I want to start by talking about these confirmation battles that we are seeing unfold on Capitol Hill, a flurry of meetings. Pete Hegseth had really been in the spotlight, obviously, with President-elect Trump at the Army-Navy game yesterday. Where does the battle go from here? Who is kind of going to be in focus this coming week?
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah, and I think the way to look at this is, and you can do it in the lens of the Pete Hegseth nomination, is that there's not going to be any more early exits, right? We saw Matt Gaetz exit the confirmation process pretty quickly because it was clear he didn't have the votes. All these other nominees, and all – there's a quite a handful of them that have controversial issues behind them. They're all going to get their due here. They're going to get the opportunity to go through the confirmation process, answer questions in an open hearing, and then we'll see if they have the votes. There's no doubt that the Hegseth nomination is in a much better position than it was two weeks ago, meaning that senators are open to letting him go through this process. But there's no guarantee that he's going to make it through the finish line at this point. Next week is going to be crucial, though, because that's when Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is going to be on Capitol Hill for the first time. He is a very controversial pick. Even within the Republican Party, there are a lot of issues that he has that could be stumbling blocks. For instance, the pro-life community is not happy that he would take over an agency like the Department of Health and Human Services. So the question is does RFK Jr.'s arrival shield Pete Hegseth to get through the holidays and into the next stage of the confirmation battle? Those are all the things we're going to be watching for on Capitol Hill.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Amna, what are you watching for? And of course this comes as Christopher Wray announced he's resigning three years –
AMNA NAWAZ:
Right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– short of when he was supposed to leave his post.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yeah, the interesting thing about the Wray decision was the – the argument for why Wray should have stayed, right, which was if you believe that this powerful organization that people have worked so hard to keep non-political, thus the ten-year terms, if you believe that it should remain that way, then you stay and you fight and you make the president fire you, right, if he's going to do that, rather than obeying in advance. And the implications of that, I think are, we'll see immediately at – at the Bureau, this clears the way for his – for Trump's nominee of Kash Patel, who has said he wants to basically completely reform the Bureau from the inside out. He has an enemies list that he's published in his book. You asked all those questions of Mr. Trump in the interview as well. The broader implications, though, are that if the FBI director is not one who's willing to stand up and fight for the safeguards, there's the question of who will.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, it's a great point. Peggy, pick up there. And – and within the context of some of what we've heard, which is that some Republicans feel like they are being pressured to get in line. And – and Senator Graham kind of said, "Well, that's what happens here."
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yeah. Yeah –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you make of this?
PEGGY NOONAN:
– yeah, he didn't fight on that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
No.
PEGGY NOONAN:
I believe it was Lisa Murkowski who said just the other day, I think, to No Labels, "Look, people are put – being put under real pressure. You better toe the line." It's a very funny thing that they – there was a time when you were afraid, if you were a Republican, of Donald Trump. You are now afraid of Donald Trump's operatives on the ground in various states who, as Lisa Murkowski said, will primary you, will push you around in any number of ways. So they're under real pressure. But in a funny way, the Democrats are going to be under pressure too. It'll be pressure in these sparky hearings that everybody watches, not to seem merely obstructionist or partisan, to be well read, know your brief, know who this person is, and pull them out. Let them reveal themselves.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ashley, what do you expect to see from Democrats? As Peggy says, they have a pretty fascinating role to play here.
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
No, I think – I think Peggy's absolutely right. I mean, the challenge for Democrats is going to be pick and choose your battles. You can't go after all of these guys. You know, I – I personally believe the – the one nominee that we're ignoring right now who's the biggest threat is Tulsi Gabbard. So that would be my advice to – to Democrats. Some of these folks you're going to have to let go, but those that I think pose the greatest threat to America, American democracy, our national security, those are going to be the ones they're going to have to lean in on, and Tulsi Gabbard's one of them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And she'll be back on the Hill this week, I'm told. Let's talk about Peggy's book a little bit. In one chapter you call this chapter, quote, "It appears he didn't take my advice." In two of your columns, in one of them you advised Joe Biden not to run in 2020. In another you encouraged Donald Trump to moderate his tone in 2016. What advice do you have for the incoming president, Peggy, now, do you think?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Well he made him – speaking of the hearings, President – President-elect Trump made himself look very good when his nominee, Mr. Gaetz, knew it wasn't going to work, dropped down and Trump accepted it. A certain give, a certain ability to move softly, it made him – made Trump look good a few weeks ago, and maybe he should keep it in mind for the future. For the coming future, for January, have a good inaugural. Have a good inauguration but also have an address that is not American carnage that is instead – Americans are tired of feeling like they're part of this sinking nation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
PEGGY NOONAN:
If Trump feels he's right on the issues, paint a rising nation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ashley, yeah, what's so fascinating, just to pick up on Peggy's point, when I talked to President-elect Trump I asked him, "What is the theme of your inaugural address gonna be?" And he said, "Unity." Do you think he can strike a tone of unity? He said he was going to do that during his convention address. Part of it did, but certainly, then, we veered into a bit of campaign rhetoric. What will you be watching for?
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
Well, I mean, I don't – I don’t think he can strike a – a tone of unity as much as I think he would – he would want to. The reality, though, is his first steps, is – you – you know, all we have to do is sort of refer back to what he says he's going to do on day one. He's going to deport millions of people. He's going to pardon those that initiated a deadly attack on – on the Capitol, the most egregious attack on American democracy. All of those things don't speak to unity and trying to unify the nation. So I – I think he's going to have a hard time doing this. I just don't think it's in his DNA. I think his DNA is to be an obstructionist. I think his DNA is carnage. I think that is how he won. He leaned into it in the last election and it proved to be a winner for him. So I think the one thing we know about Donald Trump is he's a creature of habit, and I think he's gonna lean on what he's always done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ryan, he did, Lindsey Graham did actually signal today there could be some pushback to some of what President-elect Trump has said. He was very clear, “no,” when I asked him should President-elect Trump, his administration, jail the January 6th committee members.
RYAN NOBLES:
Right. But that's not something that the U.S. Senate can stop him from doing, right?
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's true.
RYAN NOBLES:
If he enforces – same thing with the pardoning of the January 6th defendants. So we do have to look for these opportunities that the Senate has to be a co-equal branch of government and push back on maybe the most radical things that Donald Trump wants to do. I think the first showdown could potentially be this idea of a recess appointment. This is really in the control of the Congress, whether or not they allow a recess appointment to happen. It's not something he can just do unilaterally. I'm told that it remains a tool in the toolbox, that if Republicans feel that Democrats are the ones standing in the way of a nominee that could potentially have the votes. But ultimately, with 53 votes, Republicans are going to determine whether or not these nominees make it through the confirmation process. And if Trump doesn't have the votes and then pushes them to go the recess appointment route, which opens up a Pandora's box down the road, that could be the indication to us whether or not they're going to roll over –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
RYAN NOBLES:
– every single time he challenges them, or whether or not they're actually going to stand up to him when they think it's necessary.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Amna, give us a final thought on – on this, and on – is there any hope that something could get done in a bipartisan fashion like what Senator Sanders said, getting something on the minimum wage, for example?
AMNA NAWAZ:
There could be a path ahead for a few of those issues. I think Dreamers, for example –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
AMNA NAWAZ:
– there's always been bipartisan support and there's been indication from both parties I talk to. I think we're going to know a lot about how President Trump's next term will go within the first 24 hours, a lot of those day one actions. We'll see how far he's willing to go. In the past, he's really pushed the envelope and had to dial it back then based on the way the public has reacted or based on what the law has said, the courts have said. We'll learn a lot in those first days. Sources have already told us they expect tens of executive orders in the first week alone. Sources tell me those are already written and ready to go. I'm watching immigration very, very closely. We know that Trump is very, very susceptible to public perception. He told you that in the interview as well. That's where I'm watching most closely.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, great conversation. Thank you all for being here. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.