KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: Meet the Moment. Conversations with people who are having an impact in Washington and beyond.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
There are times where I feel like I'm all alone.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Still?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Still, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps opens up about his struggles with anxiety and depression.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Being able to talk about mental health, which is something that, you know, personally, I struggle with almost every single day. And depression and anxiety aren't just going to disappear.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Civil rights icon Ruby Bridges reflects on how she made history.
RUBY BRIDGES:
I mean, I was thrust into the middle of a situation that no six-year-old should be put in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And: game changers.
MEGAN RAPINOE:
I feel like we just came to the end of all the excuses of why nobody likes women's sports, and it turns out everybody watches women's sports.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sports icons Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe on how women's sports are breaking records.
SUE BIRD:
Don't you want to look like a genius? Like this is how you can look like – invest now, get on board now, help this grow now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus, fight for justice.
DAN SLEPIAN:
I didn't know if he was innocent. I didn't know if he was guilty.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Journalist Dan Slepian and JJ Velazquez share the twenty-year journey that changed both of their lives.
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
I am not an anomaly. There are hundreds of thousands of wrongfully convicted people on this earth, and they are suffering.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And keeping the faith. NBC's Savannah Guthrie shares her journey to get closer to God.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I'm just a regular human who has walked in faith and out of faith over years and years and these are some of the things that I've learned. And I didn't learn them because everything went well. I learned them mostly when things went wrong.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. For more than 77 years, Meet the Press has had a history of shining a light on people who influence our politics from outside of Washington, from Jackie Robinson to Robert Frost, Jane Fonda to Billy Graham, Carl Sagan and Gloria Steinem. This morning, we take a look back on our special series "Meet the Moment" and the conversations we’ve had this year with the voices outside of our politics shaping conversations that matter. Swimmer Michael Phelps, the most decorated Olympian of all time, joined Meet the Press for a candid conversation about his battle with anxiety and depression and his advocacy for other athletes. Ruby Bridges, who at just six years old became a civil rights icon simply for attending her school, which was newly desegregated in 1960, spoke with us about the unfolding debate on book banning, and whose stories can be told. JJ Velazquez, who was exonerated after spending 24 years in prison, wrongfully convicted for a murder he did not commit, joined veteran Dateline producer Dan Slepian for a conversation about their more than two-decade fight to free Velazquez. Olympic gold medalists Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird marked what may be the biggest year on record for women’s sports in America. And Today Show Co-anchor Savannah Guthrie sat down for a very special conversation about her relationship to her faith. But we begin with Michael Phelps. With 23 gold medals, he is undoubtedly one of the greatest competitors alive. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have his struggles. In retirement, he has been using his voice to speak out about facing depression and anxiety, and advocating for more mental health resources for athletes. I sat down with Phelps near his home in Arizona for a "Meet the Moment" conversation about how he's doing in his own mental health journey and what more needs to be done in the Olympic community.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have dedicated so much time to advocating for, to speaking out about mental health, your mental health, the importance of getting help if you are struggling. Before we dive into your advocacy, how are you doing right now, Michael?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I'm good. I mean, obviously I have my days, like everyone does. Right? We go through ups and downs, and that's just life. I feel like I have more tools now to prepare me through the bumps or the roller coasters, like I call them, that I go through in my life. And, yeah, I'm enjoying, right like, being retired again and being able to talk about mental health, which is something that, personally, I struggle with almost every single day. And depression and anxiety aren't just going to disappear, right? These are things that I have to adapt and I have adapted throughout my life, and they are a part of my life. They're always going to be a part of my life. So, it's finding the best way every single day to be the best version of me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You just said something really powerful, which is that you still struggle with depression –
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– and anxiety every day.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. I mean, there are times. I mean, there are ten-day spells where every day's a struggle. But for me, it's: What can I control in that moment? Throughout my career I looked at myself as a swimmer and an athlete. Now, I can look in a mirror and see a person, somebody that has feelings and emotions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do think it's striking to hear you say you saw yourself as a swimmer, as an Olympian, not necessarily as a person. When did you first realize you were really struggling with depression?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I would say probably 2004. 2004 was my first taste of post-Olympic depression. Coming off such a high when it's basically you get to like the edge of the cliff, and you're like, "Cool. Now what? Oh, I guess I've got to wait four more years to have the chance to do it again." Right? And for those who don't have a successful Olympics, those four years can be like an absolute eternity. So, for me, 2004 is my first, 2008 was my second taste of post-Olympic depression. Because coming off of that high after doing something, like, you set out to do your whole entire life. My goal was to do something no one else had ever done before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you know it was depression, or did you just think, "I'm feeling a little off"?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I think at that point, you know like – I'll say, as a male athlete, I could tell something was off. But I think I saw it as a sign of weakness and if I shared anything about it then it would give my competitors an edge. And I'm not trying to do that, right? I don't want to give my competitors an edge. I'm trying to be better than anybody, period, has ever been. So, for me, I looked at it as weakness. So, for me, I had to learn that vulnerability is a good thing. And it was scary at first, but I learned that vulnerability just means change. And for me, it was a great change.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But I do want to go back to that moment in 2014 when you got a DUI. You've spoken about this quite extensively. You say you were effectively locked in a room for four days.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah, three or four days.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You had suicidal thoughts. Your family did rally around you. How did you find the strength to get help in that moment?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. I mean, I think in that moment, for me, there was a lot of shame. And I just didn’t want – really I had the thought of it was me that was putting my family through all of this stress and all of this. And I was just like, "Okay, maybe it's better if I just leave." And at the time, I was prescribed Ambien from our doctors on our team trips. And I was happy I only had three pills left. And I took them all that night, and I woke up the next morning, and I didn't eat anything or drink anything for two or three days. And after those two or three days, I didn't really want to talk to anybody. I didn't want to see anybody. It was kind of just to the point where I knew I needed help, right? Like, the thoughts that I was having were too much, and they were overwhelming, and they were scary. So, for me, at that point, I just checked myself into a treatment center.
KRISTEN WELKER:
For 45 days.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
45 days.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What happened in those 45 days that made you stronger?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. I basically got ripped apart. And I say that and like – imagine like a motherboard of a computer, where you just take everything apart, and you just kind of rebuild and talk about it, whether it's my childhood, things that I'm having difficulty times with, good things, and kind of just piecing it all back together.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you emerged stronger, not just emotionally but as a competitor as well.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. Look like, I'm lucky to be here. I'm lucky to have everything I have. So, I'm going to go down swinging no matter what. I just had a conversation with – I might get choked up here. I just had a conversation with a buddy of mine the other day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Take your time. It's okay.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
So, for me this is all fresh. So, a friend of mine, he's my mental health buddy and he knows who I'm talking about. I'll just say it. Okay, so Jay Glazer and I are – we’re mental health buddies. We both struggle. And when we're both having our bad days, we go through similar ups and downs and we do similar things when we're down, if that makes sense. And we both had this conversation the other day, because when it happens, for me I reach out to him. When it happens for him, he reached out to me. And I have a couple friendships like that, where we've kind of really been able to form a bond. And to what we were saying before is I literally sent a text to him and I was like, "I'm never [expletive] quitting, ever in my life. That's not who I am."
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you say, "I'm not a quitter," you mean you're not quitting –
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Anything. I won't quit anything. I will never give up at anything that – there are so many goals of mine that I have and want to accomplish. And no matter how hard it gets, I'm never giving up. There's a reason why I was able to win 23 Olympic gold medals, right? So, I'm determined. I'm stubborn. I’m, yeah, a laundry list of things. I just don't give up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your advice, Michael, to someone who is watching this, who's struggling, who feels alone, who doesn't feel like they have the strength or community to help them?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I would say one, reach out to a loved one that you can trust. You know I would say again also – one reach out to somebody you can trust. Two I would say you're not alone, without question. There are times, even though I have a Rolodex of people I can reach out to, there are times where I feel like I'm all alone.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Still?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Still, yeah. I mean, it's those days. But I still know that I'm like, "All right, pick up the phone. Who can I call? Just go through and make a phone call."
KRISTEN WELKER:
The U.S. Olympic Committee has said that it has made advances, particularly in the wake of your speaking out, other athletes speaking out. How do you assess the changes that the U.S. Olympic Committee has made? Has the committee gone far enough? What do you want to see happen that hasn't happened?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
There needs to be more. Flat out. The ABC organizations have done some steps in the right direction to get help and care that us as athletes need. But they're not doing everything they can. And that upsets me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you want to see them do specifically?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I want to see them put the athletes first. That's it. Nothing else to say.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that means providing better mental health care?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
It's everything. The athletes need to be first.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you didn't feel that way when you were an Olympian?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I walked into training rooms at the USOC and couldn't get care. This is six months before the 2008 Olympic Games.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You were denied care?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I was denied anything. I couldn't get access. No physical trainer would help me. So, if that's happening with me, it's happening with others too. So, if we're supposed to be these athletes that are representing our country, then put the athletes first.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If one of the representatives of the Olympic Committee were sitting here instead of me, what would you say to them?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Nothing that can be recorded. There's a lot – there’s just a lot of emotions there. There's so much passion for me. And I want what's right, period. That's all. And I won't stop until everything is done that I think needs to be done.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
At just 6 years old, Ruby Bridges became a civil rights icon simply for attending her school, which was newly desegregated in 1960. Bridges and her mother had to be escorted by federal marshals under the loud jeers of segregationists who protested her pursuit of a basic education. Over the past 25 years, Bridges has been visiting schools around the country and replying to the letters of students who have sought her advice. Some of that correspondence is collected in a book, “Dear Ruby: Hear Our Hearts”. I sat down with Ruby Bridges for a "Meet the Moment" conversation. She describes the painful experience she had as a little girl – at one point using a racial slur, words she heard at the time, as she speaks in deeply personal terms.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to start off by talking about this beautiful book that you have written in which you answer the letters that children have written to you. What do you hope people will take from your book?
RUBY BRIDGES:
You know, it took me back to being six years old and thinking about what I was going through. And I think we as adults, we underestimate the minds of our little ones. Because I know that I was having these really grown-up, adult thoughts. I mean, I was thrust into the middle of a situation that no six-year-old should be put in. And I was really thinking about all those things. And so when I started to read some of these letters, I thought, "Wow, things really haven't changed all that much." We are still underestimating our kids. They are still concerned about grown-up issues. And I heard their hearts.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Take me back to what that was like for you when you were six years old. You were being escorted by U.S. Marshals into a school that was newly desegregated. You had to sit in a classroom all by yourself. What was that walk to school like for you?
RUBY BRIDGES:
My parents never explained to me what I was about to venture into. The only they said is, "Ruby, you're going to go to a new school today, and you better behave." And living in New Orleans and being accustomed to Mardi Gras, I mean, you know we see that during Mardi Gras. Huge crowds screaming and yelling. So, I often say what protected me was the innocence of a child. I thought that day I was venturing into a Mardi Gras parade. So I wasn't afraid. It took a while before I really found out that the crowds were out there for me. And that happened when I finally had an opportunity to meet another child.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Tell me about that.
RUBY BRIDGES:
Well, kids were being hidden from me. There were some white parents who tried to send their kids to school with me. But they were never protected by federal marshals like I was. So they had to cross that picket line, and they were being attacked. So even if they were not racist, it would probably be very hard for them to send their child. But they did, a few of them. And the principal was part of the opposition, so she would take them and hide them. So they would never see me and I wouldn’t see them. But once I got into the classroom and met these other kids, a little boy said, "I can't play with you. My mom said not to because you're a [EXPLETIVE]." And the minute he said that, everything sort of came into focus for me. That it wasn't Mardi Gras. That the crowd out there was out there because of me and the color of my skin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
After you realized what these crowds were saying to you, how did you feel going to school every day walking past them? What was that like for you?
RUBY BRIDGES:
I would not really focus on them. I would block them out. And mainly because I loved school. I never missed a day. And that was because of my teacher. I had an amazing teacher who came from Boston to teach me. She was white.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Barbara Henry.
RUBY BRIDGES:
Barbara Henry. I mean, there were days when if you opened the window, because we didn't have air conditioning, you could hear them screaming and shouting and chanting. And she would go to the window and close the window and say, "Oh, today we're going to have music." You know, it was little things that she did that made me love school. I knew that if I just got past the crowd that it was a short walk, and into the building, I was going to have a great day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What goes through your mind when you hear these debates unfold all in schools across the country about what should be taught, what should be read, what shouldn't be, access to books? What do you think about?
RUBY BRIDGES:
Well, I think that's ridiculous. I mean, most of my books have been banned. And the excuse that I've heard them give is that my story actually makes, especially white kids, feel bad about themselves. But I believe that it's just an excuse not to share the truth, to cover up history. But I believe that history is sacred. That none of us should have the right to change or alter history in any way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you afraid that not just your history but the history of civil rights –
RUBY BRIDGES:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– is being threatened in this country?
RUBY BRIDGES:
Yes. Those things are what we live with today. The history, all the subject matter that they want to ban, it's happening in the world. We cannot live in a bubble, put blinders on like it's not happening. And if we think that we are actually fooling our kids by banning books, oh my god, where are we really? Because kids have computers. They have so much information at their fingertips. My – I have to go to my grandbaby to say, "Tell me what's happened. Open my phone. Do this. Whatever.” All of us. So we're not – we’re not hiding anything from our young people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If you could talk to the six-year-old Ruby Bridges, what would you say to her on that first day of school?
RUBY BRIDGES:
I would just say, "Ruby, it's okay. Don't worry. It's all going to be fine. It's going to work out.”
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, the fight for justice for the wrongfully convicted. JJ Velazquez spent more than 20 years behind bars for a crime he did not commit.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
I am not an anomaly. There are hundreds of thousands of wrongfully convicted people on this earth, and they are suffering just like I suffered. And they're not being heard.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And now a closer look at our justice system. Veteran Dateline producer Dan Slepian first met Jon-Adrian Velazquez, or JJ, in 2002, when he was already serving time for a 1998 murder he did not commit. From his cell in Sing Sing, JJ aided Slepian in his investigations until he was granted clemency and released in 2021 after more than two decades in prison. "The Sing Sing files: One Journalist, Six Innocent Men, and a 20 Year Fight for Justice," tells the deeply personal story of their relationship, their fight to overturn wrongful convictions and to reform the legal system. In September, Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg announced that his office would vacate Velazquez's murder conviction. I sat down with Slepian and Velazquez for a "Meet the Moment" conversation right before that announcement.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DAN SLEPIAN:
I didn't know if he was innocent. I didn't know if he was guilty. And I said to him what I say to everybody who says that they're innocent to me. I said to him, "Look, I don't know if you're guilty or you're innocent. I am not your friend. I am not your advocate. All I care about is the truth. And if I find evidence of your guilt, it's coming out."
KRISTEN WELKER:
JJ, what was it like from your perspective when you first met Dan and you heard those words?
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
Initially, you know, it’s always painful when you're telling the truth to someone and they're not trying to hear you, right? But it's also expected because of the circumstances that I was under. I'm being accused for taking a police officer's – or a former police officer's life, which is one of the most heinous crimes someone can be charged with. And so, as a young journalist, which Dan was when we first met 22 years ago, you know, I can't expect him to just not know me from anywhere, not have any credible sources, and just expect what I'm saying is the truth, right? So, the reality was, in that moment as he was saying that, the only thing that I could come up with in my mind was like, "How do I get this guy to really believe that I'm not playing with this, that I'm serious, I'm innocent, and I need help?" And so, I challenged him to prove me guilty. And that's what caught him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's not just that you're a singular case. You started covering the wrongful conviction of, again, someone who you were in jail with, David Lemus, who was also wrongfully convicted. And you were in disbelief that there could be two people in such close proximity.
DAN SLEPIAN:
I thought it was a one-in-a-million case. When I came to my own moral certainty that David Lemus was probably innocent, I visited him at the prison he was at on Thanksgiving Day, on the anniversary for the murder for which he was wrongfully convicted. But I walk into the lobby that day, and I see a woman holding the hands of two little boys. And she stops me and says, "Are you Dan?" I hate to tell this part of the story, bro. I can – I –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Because you can see those two little boys?
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
Yeah. I wasn't there, and I can see them.
DAN SLEPIAN:
JJ's older son was on Maria's right side, Jon Junior. And Jacob, the littler one, was on her left side. He came up to her waist, you know? And I didn't know who these people were. And Maria says, "My son, JJ, he's innocent. Can you help us?" And I didn't believe her. But it was the little boy, Jacob, who looked up at me with these eyes, these huge, beautiful saucer eyes. And my daughter – my wife wasn't even pregnant yet. I was about to be a father. I mean, I've known JJ longer than I've known my daughter, who's in college. And I looked at that boy's eyes, and I thought – my immediate thought was, "I don't care if his father's innocent or guilty. This little kid should not be in a prison on Thanksgiving morning." That was the beginning for me. And what happened from there were letters from JJ and a relationship that ensued that today, 22 years later, I would put myself in front of a train for him. I would take a bullet for him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I know it's emotional.
DAN SLEPIAN:
He's among the closest people in my life.
KRISTEN WELKER:
JJ, and I want to talk about your relationship, but I want to talk about those little boys, because from that moment on, you were in – you were behind bars –
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– for another 20 years. What was taken from them in that time, and how hard was it for you to be away from them?
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
I would say it starts with the fact that – what they took from both of us. They took the right to be a father from me. And they took the right to have a father present from them. Our lives were lived in pictures, not in real time. The only real time we had was on visits, where you can barely do anything. And for the first 10 years of my children's life, as a father, I'm scarred because they spent five days in school and one day in prison and only had one day to build their social lives. And that's just not the life for a child. They deserved better.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Through all of that pain, JJ, you never gave up.
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You continued to give every piece of evidence you could to Dan for his investigations. You continued to ask for retrial after retrial. You were never granted freedom, at that moment. How did you keep going?
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
Hope. Purpose. During the early part of my incarceration, I read this book by Viktor Frankl, and it’s called Man's Search for Meaning. It's a very thin book, but it's so powerful. It was about Viktor Frankl himself, who was at the concentration camps. And he was studying the people around him. And what he found was that the people who survived the Holocaust survived because they were tied to a sense of purpose. And so that led me to believe that I had to find the sense of purpose while I was in prison. And it took a while for me to figure it out. But when my mother approached me on a visit one day, and she was just like, "I can see you slipping. I see that you're changing. Don't let this place change you. You need to grow where you're planted. They can lock up your body, but they can't lock up your mind."
KRISTEN WELKER:
In 2021, you did learn that Governor Cuomo granted you clemency. This is not a full pardon. So, in the eyes of New York, you are still a convicted criminal. But what was that moment like when the gates opened and you walked outside a free man?
JJ VELAZQUEZ:
When that gate opened, my purpose was right in front of me because my family was waiting for me right there. My children. My mother. That was my hope. That was my purpose. I think that as hard as it is for me to swallow what I'm about to say, I've realized that as much as I've been through, there was a need for me to go through that, to be in the position that I am right now, to have this conversation with you, and to be able to touch the world. Because I am not an anomaly. There are hundreds of thousands of wrongfully convicted people on this earth, and they are suffering just like I suffered. And they're not being heard.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, with millions of fans and billions of dollars, women’s sports are breaking records. Our conversation with sports icons Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe is next.
[BEGIN TAPE]
MEGAN RAPINOE:
I feel like we just came to the end of all the excuses of why nobody likes women's sports, and it turns out everybody watches women's sports
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. 2024 has marked what might be the biggest year on record for women’s sports in America. From the WNBA finals breaking records for viewership, to American women winning more than half of the country’s gold medals at the Olympics in Paris. If American women were their own country, they would have placed third in overall medal count. Two trailblazing athletes – Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird – say the talent and the fans have always been there, but now the rest of the country is finally catching up to what they’ve always known: everyone watches women’s sports. I sat down with Rapinoe and Bird for a “Meet the Moment” conversation.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, let's talk about where we are in women's sports. The women's NCAA basketball tournament had more viewers than men's this year. Women made up 50% of Team USA for the first time in Olympic history. Megan, when you think about those numbers, what does that say about where we are as a country?
MEGAN RAPINOE:
Well, you always say this, but everybody's catching up, right? Everybody, everybody knows now what we've known for a long time. Like, when Sue played in the Final Four, her stadium was sold out. And, like, that was already happening then. The U.S. Women's National Team had been winning gold medals for a long time. U.S. women in the Olympics have dominated for a very long time. And now you're seeing the investment match the quality and the ability of the players. You're seeing the investment match the appetite that the fans have and the demand from the fans. The demand from the fans has been there the whole time. Just things haven't been available, whether that's on streaming, or whether that's on TV, or whatever it may be. And I think this moment is like – I feel like we just came to the end of all the excuses of why nobody likes women's sports, and it turns out everybody watches women's sports. Everybody likes it. Everybody's into it. Turns out, oh, we're really good at sports. We're really entertaining. We're actually really amazing off the court. We, we care about our teammates. We care about our community. We care about politics. We care about making the world a better place. And it's an incredibly desirable product for people to watch, for players to play in, for sponsors to sponsor, for people to put on TV. So, it’s like, we always just feel like we've been knowing this is ready. And I feel like everyone else is now ready for that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I think about other stars like Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, these women who are now, like the two of you –
MEGAN RAPINOE:
Superstars.
SUE BIRD:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– in the spotlight and superstars –
MEGAN RAPINOE:
Yeah. Yeah, superstars.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– and just at the top of their game. I wonder what you would say to them, what you have said to them, about how to both be focused on your sport and your craft, but also manage all of that pressure, which is a lot.
SUE BIRD:
Yeah. It’s, it's really fun, rewarding, and also interesting to watch these younger athletes step into their professional careers. Obviously, Caitlin and Angel are two great examples. What I see immediately -- and I think some of this has to do with NIL in college, right? Like, so much earlier, these athletes are thinking about themselves as businesses, as brands. And that’s – it's amazing because they're carrying that with them to the WNBA. And so, everything's just bigger. They just seem so much more self-aware in that way, in a business sense, than I ever was at that age, I would say that you ever were, because –
MEGAN RAPINOE:
Yeah.
SUE BIRD:
– that just wasn't our worlds, right? But now they're in that world. And so, my only advice is usually just to make sure they keep basketball the main thing. Because at the end of the day, that is your vehicle. It's your vehicle to -- Angel Reese has a podcast. It's her vehicle to be a podcaster, right? Whatever Caitlin ends up doing, it's the vehicle to get you to that point. So you always want to make sure that part doesn’t fall off.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and of course sports is a business, as well. Last year, Deloitte forecasted that 2024 would be the first year that revenue for women's elite sports would surpass a billion dollars. But where do you put it in the arc of what you are hoping to accomplish? Does more need to be done? And what more needs to be done?
SUE BIRD:
Megan and I talk about this all the time, is a lot of times we're not looked at based on our potential, right? Whether it's a young athlete, somebody who has already accomplished a lot, it's never like, "Ooh, let me invest in this and see what happens in five to ten years because I see something." It's always, "Okay, what have you done, and do I – do you deserve to be paid now based on what you did do?" But never looking to the future. I would challenge corporate sponsorships, so companies, businesses, TV networks, to start looking at us based on our potential. What they think is going to happen, not, "Well, let's wait and see in a couple years to see if this is real."
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your message if you could speak to lawmakers, to people who have the ability to change things not just in sports, but across all industries? What is the message to them?
MEGAN RAPINOE:
I think in so many ways - I would love for people to just believe in it, and that would be reflected in the policies that they craft up. But that’s obviously not the case, and it’s been entrenched. So like, people don't really think about it, but public investment in men's teams is in, at this point, likely the hundreds of billions. We're talking stadiums, practice facilities, investment around, like, building, you know, the kind of like restaurants and the scene around the stadiums. Like, a lot of that is done with public money. Show me the area where billions of dollars have invested – been invested into women's sports, women, young girls, education, any of that. So, like, I think from a holistic perspective, there's so much we need to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You've both been so celebrated. And then recently, your number was retired by the Seattle Reign. And you have a street named after you in Seattle. Sue, what are those moments like?
SUE BIRD:
So, those are powerful. They're powerful. They're meaningful. I think where I've landed with it is, you know, you play the game, maybe you set some records, you win some championships. And, yes, the memories always stay. But there's always another athlete that comes and, you know, breaks one of your records or, you know, maybe wins more gold medals. And then you start to realize, "Okay, so, what's this other impact that I've had?" And I think when you're, you’re honored in a way of a jersey retirement, in the case for me with the street being named after me, those last forever. And that really, I think, is an indicator of your legacy. And more than that, it's a “see it, be it” moment for a young girl out there, right? We've actually changed the world in that way, because I didn't have athletes that had jerseys retired or streets named after them to be like, "I want to try to do that one day." And now there's a younger generation that can see us and see what we've achieved, and try to do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You use that word legacy, which is so powerful. Megan, what do you think your legacy is and will be?
MEGAN RAPINOE:
Oh, that's a question I think for other people to answer, but I think part of the legacy is, you know, growing our individual teams, growing the sport, to think about where the sport is now for a Trinity Rodman versus where it was for me when I was growing -- is massively different. And there's, and there’s a million people that are involved in that. But to have our little fingerprints on it in some way, I think, when I think about legacy I think of, you know, seeing more, like, openly gay people in the stands, and families, and, like, seeing Black Lives Matter flags in the stands, and, like, seeing groundbreaking CBAs, and seeing equal pay, like, seeing the team continue to win, which has always been the legacy, which is the legacy that I picked up from other people. Now these players get to just take it to a whole new level and, you know, blow us out of the water. And I feel like that's exciting for us and, like, meaningful for us of, like, we built something that was sturdy to stand on, and now they're flying.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, NBC’s Savannah Guthrie opens up about her faith journey.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
The number one thing I say is, "Bring those doubts to God. Bring your whole self to God." He's not afraid of our questions.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:And next, poetry from one of the greats, Robert Frost. Our “Meet the Press” minute is next.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ROBERT FROST:
We all write poetry because poetry has been written for 10, 20, 30 or 40 thousand years and it's in us, rhythm and meter.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. We introduced “Meet the Moment” just last year, but this broadcast has been a forum for cultural icons for more than 77 years. On Christmas Day in 1955, the only poet ever to receive four Pulitzer Prize awards, Robert Frost, joined “Meet the Press.” Asked which of his poems best captured the spirit of America, Frost shared these memorable lines.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ROBERT FROST:
The land was ours before we were the land’s. She was our land more than a hundred years Before we were her people. She was ours. In Massachusetts, in Virginia, but we were England’s, still colonials, possessing what we still were unpossessed by, possessed by what we now no more possessed. Something we were withholding made us weak until we found out that it was ourselves we were withholding from our land of living, and forthwith found salvation in surrender. Such as we were we gave ourselves outright, the deed of gift was many deeds of war, to the land vaguely realizing westward. But still unstoried, artless, unenhanced, such as she was, such as she would become. And it all lies in that first line, ‘The land was ours before we were the land's.
[END TAPE]
ANNOUNCER:
To learn more about the books featured on Meet the Press, go to NBCNews.com/books. You’ll also find new releases on history, biography, and more. NBC News receives a commission for sales made through our website.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. You know her as the co-anchor of the Today Show. But now Savannah Guthrie is showing the world a new side of herself – her relationship to her faith. While she doesn't consider herself a theologian, Savannah says like so many Americans, she has had a spiritual journey throughout her life. From Sunday school to choir practice, she always saw God as the sixth member of her family. In her book, "Mostly What God Does," Savannah explores her relationship with God and how it has impacted the biggest moments of her life. I sat down for a very special “Meet the Moment” conversation with my NBC News colleague to discuss what she's learned while reflecting on her deeply held beliefs.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why did you want to write this book now?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
You know, no one is more surprised than me that I wrote a book about anything, let alone about faith and about God. It's definitely the most personal and vulnerable thing I've ever done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, as someone who's known you for a long time, I have to say, one of the most beautiful parts of reading this book is that I hear your voice in every word. Really. I felt like I was sitting with you every time –
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
For better or worse.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– I read this book. And I think the world gets to hear your voice every morning on TV. But how did you find your written voice, your literary voice?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I love to hear you say that, because we are dear friends. And I've had many of my friends say, "This is so funny, reading this is like sitting and having coffee with you."
KRISTEN WELKER:
It really is.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Or more likely wine in my case. But, you know, I just wrote my own thoughts. It’s really – I – I tried to make it very simple, very plain, very down-to-earth, very accessible. It's not a religious tome. I'm the first to put the disclaimer on, saying, "I'm not a biblical scholar. I'm not a theologian." And I'm not offering myself up as some great example of piety or religious learning. I'm just a regular human who has walked in faith and out of faith over years and years and these are some of the things that I've learned. And I didn't learn them because everything went well. I learned them mostly when things went wrong, mostly when there were disasters, and disasters often of my own making. And the – the thrust of the book is very simple. It's simple, but it's not easy. It's called “Mostly What God Does.” And the rest of the sentence is, mostly what God does is love you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you say, you are a person of faith, you grew up with God as the sixth member of your household you say, what do you say to people who feel like they've lost their faith? How do they find it again?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I understand. And I think God understands. We live in a broken world. This is not the world that God intended. And there are hard questions. And I try to talk about those things. Where is God in a world that looks to be full of injustice, and despair, and suffering? Whether it's what we do in our business by looking at the news everyday or whether it's lives lived where disappointments mount, and heartbreak comes, and struggle seems – seems constant. I ask those questions. What are we supposed to believe about God? How are we supposed to find Him? I don't answer all the existential questions of the universe that are unanswerable. Spoiler alert. If I did, the book would probably be longer and I'd charge more. But I don't think it is a mistake and I don't think it is a lack of faith to grapple with those doubts. And the number one thing I say is, "Bring those doubts to God. Bring your whole self to God." He's not afraid of our questions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You do write very candidly about one of the most painful times in your life, which is losing your father at the age of 16. You say, "I remember some of my friends asking if I could still believe in God, if his sudden death at the age of 49 had made me doubt my beliefs. ‘No,’ I said, ‘This is when I need God the most.’" But, Savannah, I think a lot of people still wonder, how were you able to keep your faith and find such a strong relationship with it all these years later despite such a devastating loss at such a young age?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Well, you know, when I said that to my friends, I was 16 years old. And that was my first reaction, "No, I can't give up God. I can't lose my dad and God, not at the same time." But the rest of my life is a story of any kind of relationship where there's been a breach of trust. And when we have things that come to us that are hard, when we have suffering, it is a breach of trust. I write about this. I don't think that God is the author of evil, suffering, and death. This is not the world that He intended. But the fact of the matter is, and this is what's so difficult, this is the crucible of faith, for whatever reason, reasons we cannot possibly understand right now, He does permit it. This world is still going on in a broken way that is full of heartbreak. And it is very understandable to ask where is God in those moments. And that is what my life has been about, asking those questions. And I think that what I've learned is, it is a relationship. I believe, and this is my leap of faith, that we will one day have a better world on Earth as it is in Heaven, the one intended. But until that day, we are asked to believe, and just draw close to God, and believe that He will draw close to us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're very candid about the moments in your life when you did not feel close to God, when you could not access your faith. You are doing the hard work. You started that very early with Vale by taking her to church. I love your mom sent the hymns to you –
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Oh, my gosh.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– to listen to on your CD.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
People keep asking me, "Do your kids go to church?" I'm like, "Yes, I drag them to church in the grand tradition of all of us who were dragged by our ears on Sunday morning. Yes, I do."
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you do the work yourself.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
You have to do the work. But, you're right, it's very candid. I write about taking not months, not days, not a few weeks, but years in which, yes, I believed in a distant kind of way, but it's not like I waking up every morning doing Bible study, or had some pious practices, or was even living a life that I would want to hold up to some religious scrutiny. No. I was a regular person. And there were times in my life where I was disappointed with the way things had turned out that I probably did blame God. And I just kind of checked out. And what I learned is that it doesn't matter how much we think of God. It does not matter what we think of God. It doesn't change how He thinks about us. It does not matter. It does not change how He treats us. So this is the big, I think, for me, the big ah-ha, the big message of the book is mostly what God does is love you. And His love has nothing to do with our thoughts of Him. It has nothing to do with our actions, good or bad. It has nothing to do with who we are. It has everything to do with who He is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you say that having children made you understand God's love for you?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How? How did that revelation happen, Savannah?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I mean, you know this, being a mom –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, I do.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
– is a revelation in every single way. But spiritually it really was too. There was a moment when I realized when my daughter was born, of course, this love that was unimaginable to me before, and unlike any other I had experienced. Because it's the closest I think we'll ever come to understanding how God relates to us. Because a mother or father's love for their child is unconditional. Again, it doesn't matter how they act. On their worst day, your love is not any different for your daughter. On their worst day, no matter what she does, no matter if she's a snarly teen at 13 and says, "I hate you, mommy," you will love her the same. There is not one thing you could do or say for or against that she could do that would make you change your mind about her. When you realize that that's how God feels about us, it's stunning. It's stunningly intimate and tender. It's almost too good to believe.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Savannah's children's book - "Mostly What God Does Is Love You" will be out in February. That's all for today, thank you much for watching. Happy new year. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.