KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: foreign relations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can Ukraine survive without U.S. military support?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
We will have low chance -- low chance to survive without support of the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My exclusive interview with Ukranian President Volodymyr Zelenskkyy as President Trump seeks to negotiate an end to the war in Ukraine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think President Trump is negotiating in good faith?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I hope so. I hope so.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: cancel culture.
ELON MUSK:
We do need to delete entire agencies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Elon Musk says he plans to wipe out entire government agencies in his efforts to curb government spending, while also admitting he might make some mistakes along the way.
ELON MUSK:
We are moving fast, so we will make mistakes, but we’ll also fix the mistakes very quickly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And: live from New York.
DARRELL HAMMOND [AS VICE PRES. AL GORE]:
The lock box.
DARRELL HAMMOND [AS PRES. BILL CLINTON]:
Hey Monica.
DARRELL HAMMOND [AS DONALD TRUMP]:
You’re fired.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Our Meet the Moment conversation with Saturday Night Live’s master impressionist Darrell Hammond as the show gets ready to celebrate 50 years of laughs. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Senior National Political Reporter Sahil Kapur, Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Republican strategist Matt Gorman and former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. President Trump's foreign policy is facing its most urgent test of his new term, as efforts ramp up to negotiate an end to Russia's war in Ukraine, which is about to enter its fourth year. World leaders gathered at the Munich Security Conference this weekend where tensions mounted over mixed messaging from the president and his top officials.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GABE GUTIERREZ:
You've suggested several things that Ukraine should give up: the idea of NATO membership, territory that was seized back in 2014 by Russia. What should Russia give up?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Russia has gotten themselves into something that I think they wish they didn’t.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
NATO allies were reportedly blindsided by news of President Trump's call with Vladimir Putin and frustrated that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth appeared to make concessions to Russia.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEC. PETE HEGSETH:
The United States does not believe that NATO membership for Ukraine is a realistic outcome of a negotiated settlement.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hegseth, after a backlash then saying everything is on the table. European leaders worry President Trump is giving leverage to Putin even before peace talks begin and signaling a desire to retreat from Europe. These comments by Vice President Vance at the Munich Security Conference setting off alarm bells.
[BEGIN TAPE]
VICE PRES. JD VANCE:
The threat that I worry the most about vis a vis Europe is not Russia, it is not China, it is not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within, the retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
I sat down exclusively in Munich with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, who delivered a stark warning about what will happen if the U.S. stops military aid.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Thank you so much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here. It is an honor to have you. Ukraine is approaching the third anniversary of Russia's invasion into your country. Let me ask you about something that President Trump said this week. He did not say yes when he was asked if he sees Ukraine as an equal member in the peace process. He did say later that Ukraine would have a seat at the table. Have you been given any assurances that Ukraine will have an equal seat at the negotiating table?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
So I will never accept any decisions between the United States and Russia about Ukraine. Never. And our people, never. And our adults, and children, and everybody, it can't be so. The war in Ukraine is against us, and it is our human losses. And we are thankful for all the support, unity between USA – in USA around Ukraine support, bipartisan unity, bipartisan support, we're thankful for all of this. But there is no any leader in the world who can really make a deal with Putin without us about us. Of course, the United States can have a lot of decisions, economical partnership, and et cetera. We're not happy with it, but they can have with Russians. But not about this war without us. And that's why I think that what we need, very closely to work and quicker. I think we lose time now quicker to work on the plan, common plan. So we’re ready because United States is our – the biggest strategic partner. We are ready not only to share our plan. We're ready to put common plan with President Trump. And of course we need support from EU. It's important. They are also big donators during this war. And we will be the members of future European Union. That's why we need the support of Europe. And this common plan, we have to discuss with Russians, and we will. And at the table, it's very important to hear America, Europe, Ukraine and Russia. Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can you accept any peace deal that is cut without Ukraine?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And do you feel like you have a seat at the table right now?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I not only count on it, I'm sure that we have to be there. Otherwise, it's not acceptable. But if there is a decision without us and Putin will go out from all our land, we will be in NATO, and Putin will be in the prison, so President Trump can’t do it without us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about your phone call with President Trump earlier this week. It came on the heels of his call with President Putin. Does Mr. Trump's direct communication with Vladimir Putin before speaking to you unnerve you?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
No, no. We spoke about it, by the way, with President Trump. And I said that I know that we had already phone calls, yes, both of us, and it's okay that he phoned him. Of course I wanted very much that Ukraine is in priority for Trump, not Russia. And I hope that we are more important, more important. Yes, we are not so big as Russia. But I think strategically Ukraine is more important for the United States because we are really partners, allies, and we share common values, and we are really from democratic worlds.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you feel like you have President Trump's full support? Do you feel like he's valuing Ukraine as much as you say he may be Russia?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Well, I became more, more, more pragmatic from the very beginning of this war and less sensitive to such things. And I believe and trust only in real steps. And I trust President Trump because he's the president of the United States, because your people, your people voted for him, and I respect their choice, and I will work the President Trump with trust, which I have to the United States. But of course I want to have real meeting, productive, without just words, with concrete steps, and to hear us, to hear President Trump, to make common plan, and to share it with allies, then with Russians, and stop this war. I think we need it urgently.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is it true that you told President Trump during that phone call that Putin is only pretending to want peace because he is afraid of Mr. Trump?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Yes. Yes, I said that he is a liar. And he said, "I think my feeling is that he's ready for these negotiations." And I said to him, "No, he's a liar. He doesn't want any peace." But I think he's really a little bit scared about the President Trump. And I think the president has this chance, and he's strong. And I think that really he can push Putin to peace negotiations. Yes, I think so. I think he can, but don't trust him. Don't trust Putin. Don't trust just words about ceasefire. I said because I have very practical things, practical meeting with Putin in 2019, and we made a decision with all our signatures. Then we made a decision about ceasefire and exchange of prisoners. Yes. And he – I don't know how to [SPEAKS UKRAINIAN]. He destroyed all these decisions and et cetera. So we don't trust him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think President Trump is negotiating in good faith?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I hope so. I hope so. Yes, I count on it. I count on it very much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Based on what you're saying about President Putin, do you think he's negotiating in good faith once talks begin?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Who?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Putin.
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Putin? That he really –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is he capable of negotiating in good faith? Is Putin capable of negotiating in good faith?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
No. No, and it's not about good faith. No, no, no, no. No. No. No, no. Yes, you just can't block his motivation to put him in such strong circumstances when he can't begin the new invasion, re-invasion. But he wants. You'll see. Everybody will see. He will try to begin something new. By the way, I said it today. I'm not sure that only about Ukraine we are speaking. He is thinking not only about Ukraine. For example, now we have – and we shared it with intelligence of our partners – now we see how he's preparing to train 150,000 people mostly on the territory of Belarus, to show it for the world that it is just training, that usually he is doing the same. Usually. But it's not truth. From such point, he begin the occupation three years ago. Full-scale war he began from some symbolic trainings and et cetera. But really, really --
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
He conducted military training exercises, he said that these are exercises that are always ongoing on Belarus territories, that they are a allied state with Belarus and that they do regular business. But he started the invasion, and the missiles, and the first night flew from the Belarus, and the invasion came from Belarus. We know for sure that he is preparing that from the territory of Belarus this year. It can happen in summer, maybe in the beginning, maybe in the end of summer. I do not know when he prepares it. But it will happen. And at that moment, knowing that he did not succeed in occupying us, we do not know where he will go. There are risks that this can be Poland and Lithuania because we believe – we believe that Putin will wage war against NATO. That is why I told you that, "What is he waiting for?" For a weakening of NATO by, for instance, policy of the United States of America, for example, that the United States of America will think to take its military from Europe. Yes, Putin thinks of that. But I will believe that the United States will not take its forces, its contingents from Europe because that will severely weaken NATO and the European continent. Putin definitely counts on that. And the fact that we receive information that he will think of the invasion against former Soviet republics. And forgive me, but today these are NATO countries.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be very clear, you are saying you have actual intelligence that President Putin is planning to attack NATO countries?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
No. We have intelligence, we have documents that they are preparing trained mission of a big number of soldiers on the, on the territory of Belarus. And we just sharing that there is a high risk that he can do the same. Maybe not. God bless not. And maybe before it, President Trump and the allies will stop him. Yes, but anyway, I think that we have to prepare, yes, to prevent it, not to be, not to have such surprises that he will come back like it was three years ago with invasion to Ukraine. That is my point. And that's not my point of view. That is our intelligence understanding.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If you were sitting across from Vladimir Putin right now instead of me, what would you say to him?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I will speak -- no, it's not about emotions. It's about how to stop him. So for me, he is a killer, and he will never change. And that's why this is the dialogue with a terrorist. This is dialogue with a killer. I don't have such power, enough power to push him out. That's why I have to speak about it. So our allies can give me such power to push him out, but our allies decided to make a deal with Putin. But I – what can I say? I'm ready. Of course we don't want, you know, to lose our people. And if it can be so in diplomacy to stop this war, so, of course, we are ready. Of course we will be happy with a peace.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, more of my exclusive interview with President Zelenskyy.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you still think it's possible for Ukraine to win this war militarily?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said this week NATO membership is not a realistic outcome of Ukraine peace talks, a sentiment echoed by President Trump. Then, after a backlash, Hegseth said everything is on the table. In our interview, President Zelenskyy insisted his country must have a future in the military alliance for Ukraine's long-term survival.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump said, he does not think Ukrainian membership in NATO is, quote, practical. In your view, is NATO membership something that should be determined as a part of this deal?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Well, I want to be very clear with NATO for us and for everybody. It's the cheapest security guarantees, the cheapest for us, the cheapest for Europe, the cheapest for United States and the cheapest really for Russia. And if we are not in NATO, it means that we will build NATO in Ukraine. Otherwise, we will not recognize the security guarantees.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump said on Wednesday that restoring all of the territory seized by Russia since 2014 is unlikely. Are you willing to say here that you are prepared to formally cede some of the sovereign territory of Ukraine to Russia in order to stop the killing?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Judicially, we will not recognize everybody and standards, it's out of constitution to recognize our occupied territory like territory of Russia. We will never do it. It's not about – it's not about any negotiations. We will never speak about it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Even Crimea, you seem to acknowledge –
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
No, yeah, even Crimea, we will never recognize it, because in years, in years, all things, all things which are Ukrainian will be Ukrainian, but maybe, I don't know when. But yes, we have to return it diplomatically. Yes, we can. If we are in NATO, it's understandable why diplomatically, it's very understandable. And of course, not to lose people. It's a good way, diplomatic way, to find diplomatic way, how to get back our land. And that's it, but the people are most important for today. That's why diplomatic way is good, but, but where we will have security guarantees, where we will stand.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What security guarantees does Ukraine need specifically from the United States?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
The strong package of missiles like preventional stuff, that we will not use it before any invasion. We will not use it, but if they will do it, we will do it quickly. But it has to stand on our territory, not like it was before the full-scale invasion that White House put sanctions after invasion. No. And gave us weapons after invasion. No, they occupied a big territory. If we could had before, they couldn't occupy us. Yes, some territory, but not everything because we'd been without weapons. That's why strong package of missiles and big army. If we are not in NATO, as I said, comparable with Russians. Not sure the same number but comparable. Not to give them possibility to occupy. And psychologically it's very important because psychologically it's a strong signal that Putin will not go if he understands that opposite they stay the same, comparable, the same number army.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can Ukraine survive without U.S. military support?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Probably it will be very, very, very difficult. And, of course, in all the difficult situations, you have a chance, but we will have low chance, low chance to survive without support of the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Your concern being, without U.S. military support, Ukraine would be vulnerable to another attack by Russia in another few years. Is that your concern?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Yes. I think this, this can be. This is really what he wants. He wants pause, prepare, train, take off some sanctions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about this deal that has been discussed, President Trump has discussed it, about mining Ukraine's rare earth minerals. Just so everyone understands, those are minerals that are used to make things like cell phones, electric cars. That would be, President Trump says, to "pay back" some of what the United States has already given to Ukraine. What is the status of that deal, President Zelenskyy?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Look – that is – first and foremost, we wanted American business to come. These critical minerals, rare earth, they are closed for many partners. We are ready to open them for the business of the United States. That is what we have. That is where we can put money and make profits together. This is goodwill from us, so it's possible to make money. And I believe that, here, we cannot forget about the main idea that was in the very beginning, that let us protect all that. Help us defend this, and we will make money on this together. And here it's very important that in this document shall be a term to protect it. And that is the security guarantees. And if we are not given the security guarantees from the United States, I believe that the economic treaty will not work.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You had a message to Vice President Vance about the potential implications of pulling out of NATO. What was your message to the vice president?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
That, that will be destroying of NATO.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Because in 80 strong brigades in Europe, I'm just speaking about NATO in Europe, so about 30, 30, it's more than 30%, is United States. And even if I will look at the army of Russia, if they will see it that they, Russia, have 220 or 250 brigades, and Europe has 50. That is the answer. The risk that Russia will occupy Europe is 100%.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If the United States pulls out of NATO –
PRES. VOLODYMRY ZELENSKYY:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– Russia will occupy Europe.
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Yes. Not all the, not all the Europe. They will begin from those countries, as I said who are big our friends but small countries who've been in the USSR, in the Soviet Union. They will begin, and we will see what will be the answer. But Europe will not answer because they don't have – they will begin to defend itself. Each country defend itself. And at this moment, so Russia will get all the successes with all the territory they will want. I don't know they will want 30% of Europe, 50%, I don't know. Nobody knows. But they will have this possibility.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you still think it's possible for Ukraine to win this war militarily?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Of course, yes. But it's many, many losses. So we understand how many. I think it's too much. And I'm not sure that with such speed as our partners do this help, support, it will be difficult. It will be long. Longer than it can be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I know you're a dad of two and you have remarkable energy and have put so much heart into spreading the message for Ukraine. What is your message to Ukrainians who have lost hope that this war will ever end?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
No. No, no, no. We'll finish this war. And it doesn't matter will Putin want it or not. We will finish the war. And I'm sure together we are much more stronger than Putin. And I'm sure that we will finish the war. I know that peace, that's what we really need and we really want. And, you know, it's like in the life. When you want something very much, with friends and with God we will do it, I'm sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
U.S. and Russian officials will meet in Saudi Arabia in the coming days to start talks. Two U.S. officials say Ukraine was not invited but the intention is for the U.S. to host bilateral talks with Russia, then with Ukraine and then the hope is for talks together and a lasting peace. An aide close to President Zelenskyy tells NBC news this morning, quote, "It is dangerous to speak with enemies before you speak with allies. Ukraine's position remains unchanged: we need to have a joint position of Ukraine, the U.S. and Europe before any negotiations with Putin." And you can see my full interview with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy at MeetthePress.com. And when we come back, President Trump is making dramatic changes in foreign policy and reshaping the federal government. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Senior National Political Reporter Sahil Kapur, Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki, host of “Inside with Jen Psaki,” and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Thanks to all of you for being here. Amna, let me start with you, the interview with President Zelenskyy. He said that there can be no deal without Ukraine at the table, and yet talks are proceeding in Saudi Arabia between the U.S. and the Russians. They say Ukraine will be next, but what do you make of this moment?
AMNA NAWAZ:
I mean, it's interesting that they're speaking with the Russians first, I think, that the call was first to President Putin before it was to President Zelenskyy in any of this. If there is a plan, it's clear the Ukrainians don't yet know what it is. And I think what's missing from the plan is this bigger context here, which is to say that security guarantees from Europe alone have never been enough to deter Russia. We know that Vladimir Putin has expansionist aspirations that he's clearly articulated. And we know there's no way to separate the Russia and China threat. None of this has been taken into consideration or articulated by the U.S. in terms of a broader plan or approach here. What I take away from your interview, though, is this is a man who is desperate for help in this moment to save his nation. I spoke to him last year in April in Ukraine at the same moment USAID was on the line. He wasn't sure if he'd get that money. And he said back then he didn't know what a Trump presidency would bring, but that it could bring change. He's having to deal with that reality now. I will say if there's a Trump plan for peace, tactically I'm not sure how it makes sense to concede two of Russia's biggest points before you even begin to negotiate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and that's what European officials were saying, Jen. That basically they were taking bargaining chips off the table before these talks had really begun. They're trying to get this deal for rare earth minerals, the U.S. saying, "Give us 50% of your rare earth minerals." President Zelenskyy saying, "Not without security guarantees." He believes that is critical, quite frankly, to Ukraine's long-term survival.
JEN PSAKI:
Of course it is. I mean, and I – and I think what we've seen from your interview and just the last couple of weeks is what I would say is two dramatic shifts in the dynamics here. And one of them is just the way that U.S. leadership views their reasons to help Ukraine. And this has been true for Democratic and Republican presidents prior to Trump. The reasons to help countries like Ukraine in the past has been: a country like Russia does not have the right to illegally invade a sovereign country. And there are risks to what they could do to other countries in eastern Europe. That's the reason the United States has supported them in the past. Now it's, "What do we get from you?" It's a very transactional approach to this, the minerals proposal, right? The second piece I would say, and Amna referenced this, is just the changing leverage that Zelenskyy has. You could hear it in his voice during your interview and in some of his answers. He does not have the leverage that he had with the United States a couple of years ago. That part is – part of the reason is who’s in the Oval Office, but also part of the reason is U.S. support among the American public for a – for significant aid to Ukraine has also changed over the course of time. And you can hear he's trying to get to, yes, he needs this security support, but he – he doesn't have the leverage he had a couple of years ago.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And Matt, on top of this, there was the speech by Vice President JD Vance where he said, "The biggest threat is not from Russia. It's not from China. It's the threat from within Europe." Which really stunned a number of European allies who felt as though, "Wait a minute, is this a sign that the United States may be aiming to retreat from Europe itself?" And – and again, kind of leaning towards some of the more far-right groups in Europe.
MATT GORMAN:
I don't think it was that, but it was provocative by design. Look, Europe is its own worst enemy because it can't confront Russia or it can't confront China if it's not meeting its security demands, which it hasn't been, right? If you deindustrialize, you demilitarize, you expand your welfare state, you don't have enough money to provide for your own security. So they have been way too passive, and they cannot help Ukraine if they don't step up in a lot of respects. And look, presidents of both parties, to be fair, have told European countries they need to do more in NATO. Trump got more done than anybody else, but for the sake of their own security, in their own continent and Ukraine, they need to be able to do more. I think that's what you heard from Vance, and you're going to hear that more from the administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, Sahil, that's the concern, that will the United States even stay in NATO. You heard Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, this week laying out all of these things that are going to be unlikely, again, kind of taking some of the bargaining chips off of the table. His message, he walked it back the next day. Then it was walked back – the walk-back was walked back by President Trump. And one of the things that I think unnerved folks at the Munich Security Conference was the mixed messaging. They – they weren't exactly sure where the U.S. stood on all of these issues.
SAHIL KAPUR:
Yeah, that's right, Kristen. We're seeing a growing divide within the Republican Party between the traditional security hawks who favor robust American involvement to preserve the post-war order that includes NATO, that includes traditional European allies on one hand. And I would put Senator Roger Wicker, the chair of the Armed Services Committee, in that category. He had some choice criticisms for the secretary of defense. But in the other category it's President Trump. It's Vice President Vance. We've seen this movement for years now. And the second category, this America first wing, which wants to pull back from the world, is winning the argument within the Republican Party. I spoke to Vice President Vance just a little over a – a year ago about this, and he explicitly said that Ukraine is going to need to cede land in order for this war to end. And he was then chosen as VP. I understand the alarm among Republicans. Nobody should be surprised at where this is going.
JEN PSAKI:
It's been their position for years.
SAHIL KAPUR:
It has been their position for years. Now, one other thing that Vice President Vance, back when he was senator, told me is that Article V, he still believes that the U.S. should honor Article V commitments. Zelenskyy, in your interview, said the United States is the only bulwark for Article V. And he – and Zelenskyy predicted if Ukraine falls, then Lithuania and Poland are next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And Amna, all of this is taking place against the backdrop of President Trump, Elon Musk really just stripping government spending. Agencies, gutting some of them. Elon Musk in the Oval Office this week fielding questions, saying that we're moving so quickly there are going to be some mistakes made. It's notable that some of the layoffs resulted in accidental firings of nuclear safety workers that the administration is now trying to unfire. That came after we saw that attack at Chernobyl. What do you make of the speed and breadth with – with which they are moving?
AMNA NAWAZ:
I mean, there's the big picture here, which is that there's a private citizen who is an unelected billionaire who is operating with unprecedented power and influence within the government right now. Just put that over here in this bucket for a moment. You look at what DOGE has been doing, and I think this example of the nuclear staff raises the exact question. If the agency making these cuts itself isn't aware of what it's cutting in the moment, then how can the American people understand what's happening at all? The question is: is this – no one – no one will disagree that there's fraud and waste in the government. I spoke to the former head of the Government Accountability Office who said, "Absolutely." The way you get there is not mass firing the inspectors general. The way you get there is not using a machete rather than a scalpel. So these "mistakes," as they call them, could have real consequences.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Sahil, President Trump says, "This is what I campaigned on. I'm following through with it." The counterpoint to that is: did he campaign on cuts that go this deep, and there are jitters about Medicaid and about Social Security, even though Trump has said Social Security's off the table for cuts.
SAHIL KAPUR:
Yeah, exactly. That's the problem that President Trump and Elon Musk are running into, that there are already early rumblings of Republican angst about the way they're proceeding with this for the specific reason that some of these cuts hit home for Republican allies of Donald Trump. The NIH indirect cuts, we've seen several senators come out and say, "This is going to hurt institutions in my state," including Senator Katie Britt of Alabama. The university, which happens to be her state's largest employer. She's unhappy about that. USAID, which Republicans generally have strongly supported cutting, has the Food for Peace program which benefits a lot of their farmers in rural America. So suddenly we're seeing a coalition of Republicans in rural states like North Dakota, like Kansas saying, "Save the Food for Peace program. Our farmers sell money to the government, then it helps combat starvation around the world." We're also seeing discontent about the federal workforce cuts from senators like Bill Cassidy in Louisiana, Lisa Murkowski in Alaska. The broader – the big picture issue that Trump is about to run into is that red states are disproportionately more dependent on the federal government. In other words, they take more from the U.S. Treasury than they pay-in in contrast to boost states, so you can't take a meat axe to the federal government without drawing some blood in Trump country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jen, I see you nodding along.
JEN PSAKI:
This, I think, is such a key part. It is, "I am for cuts, but not if they impact me." And you mentioned some of the specific examples – Senator Britt, Senator Budd in North Carolina, who've complained about the NIH cuts. But they have been fine overall with cutting the NIH, just not the universities that are in their states. But I think there's going to be the next layer of this, which is when people recognize if this money that has been held up, and – and this is what the judge ruled this week, that they haven't given it all back. And people in communities like farmers are like, "I need these subsidies. I know I voted for Trump, but this isn't what I voted for. Wait, my kids rely on this early childhood education center. Wait, Medicaid helps me get health care." These are things that impact communities across the country, and you're going to start to feel the impacts of that in the coming weeks, I think.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What about that tension, Matt, between what President Trump campaigned on versus who's actually being impacted?
MATT GORMAN:
Look, I think you'll see isolated incidents of Republican consternation on this, and I think they might adjust, even Elon said that in the Oval Office part. But look, I think Republicans feel very confident, by and large, fighting on this. I think they believe, rightly so, that government jobs are not lifetime contracts. Everyone in the private sector outside of government understands what layoffs are. They understand what buyouts are. And everyone's been affected by it or know someone who has. So the idea that this is foreign to people – it might be unfortunate, but it's a fact of life. And I think if Democrats want to be the party defending, by Republican standards, bureaucrats and foreign aid, we'll have that fight. I'll have it every day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jen, we have about 30 seconds left. Very quickly, some Democrats are saying this is a constitutional crisis because of the deep cuts, because of the tensions we're seeing within the Justice Department, for example, after it – it called for the case against Mayor Eric Adams of New York to be dismissed. What do you make of that term? Does it go too far?
JEN PSAKI:
Well, specifically – I'm not a lawyer, but specifically because the Trump administration appears to be ignoring the court order to get the money flowing again, that is the potential for the constitutional crisis. But my view is that is not the phrase that Democrats should be screaming from the rooftops every day. It may be we're on that road. But you need to be talking about how this is impacting your communities. The farmers Sahil referenced, the people who rely on Medicaid, the veterans, early childhood education kids who are reliant on that. That is what we should be talking about, what Democrats should be talking about out there because that is how you connect what is happening in Washington with communities in the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys. Fantastic conversation. Thanks so much for being here. When we come back, what is the best way to cut the federal workforce? Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Thousands of federal workers have been fired and many more have taken buyouts as President Trump and Elon Musk ramp up their dismantling of the federal government. While their approach is unprecedented in scale, the debate over government spending is as old as Washington itself. But in a 2012 interview with Meet the Press, President Barack Obama made the case that cutting costs isn't always the right answer.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
You are not only going to cut your way to prosperity. One of the – one of the fallacies, I think that has been promoted is this notion that deficit reduction is only a matter of cutting programs that are really important to seniors, students and so forth. That has to be part of the mix. But what I ran on and what the American people elected me to do was to put forward a balanced approach, to make sure that there's shared sacrifice, that everybody is doing a little bit more. And it is very difficult for me to say to a senior citizen or a student or a mom with a disabled kid, "You are going to have to do with less, but we're not going to ask millionaires or billionaires to do more."
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Saturday Night Live celebrates 50 years. Our Meet the Moment conversation with Darrell Hammond is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The iconic "Saturday Night Live" celebrates its 50th anniversary tonight. In its five decades, SNL has spanned ten presidencies - offering up the definitive impressions of American Presidents and becoming a campaign stop for candidates.
[BEGIN TAPE]
CHEVY CHASE [AS GERALD FORD]:
The final Christmas Tree ornament on the tree. No problem.
PHIL HARTMAN [AS RONALD REAGAN]:
I’m the president, only I need to understand. Is that clear?
DANA CARVEY [AS GEORGE H.W. BUSH]:
Na Ga Da, I'm talking three, four, percent tops. No more than five. That's it. So read my lips, no huge new taxes.
DARRELL HAMMOND [AS BILL CLINTON]:
And whatever you dig up, I promise you, I will lie about it. I will do this. I will do this. I will do them both together.
CHRIS PARNELL [AS JIM LEHRER]:
I will instead ask each candidate to sum up in a single word the best argument for his candidacy. Governor Bush.
WILL FERRELL [AS GEORGE W. BUSH]:
Strategery.
TINA FEY [AS SARAH PALIN]:
And I can see Russia from my house!
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Such great memories there. Only 167 people have landed the dream job as cast member inside Studio 8 - H. Among them, Darrell Hammond, who has done more than 100 impressions on SNL, including President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore and President Donald Trump. Hammond has performed for four presidents and is now the show's Announcer. And Darrell Hammond joins me now for a live "Meet the Moment” conversation. Darrell Hammond, welcome to Meet the Press.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Hi there, Kristen. It's great to be here with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is so great to have you. Well, congratulations because NBC is celebrating 50 years of SNL. You were on 14 seasons of those years. Talk about why you think this show has been so beloved for half a century.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Because it's so well done. That's why. I mean I, you know, I was backstage at that Radio City Music Hall concert the other night moving 35 bands in and out of that place and timing it all down to the second. It's so well done, you know? All the best comics in the world, all the best singers in the world, all the best dancers in the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
It's just so well done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's the precision, you're absolutely right, in all of the characters. You've played so many of them, Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Donald Trump. Do you have a favorite? What's your favorite political impersonation?
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Well, you know, we sort of likened President Clinton to Daffy Duck in that, you know, Warner Brothers eventually, you could use Daffy Duck for any – any kind of comedy, any kind of sketch, dramatic readings. He was that versatile. And after we'd done Clinton a number of times, you know, we did him in a musical once. We did a slapstick thing with him one time. It would have to be him. There's no one more colorful that I can think of.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, okay, so on that note, just to remind folks, you actually played his clone at the 1997 Radio & Television Correspondents' Association Dinner. We have this great picture of the two of you standing together. If you can, give us your best President Bill Clinton impersonation this morning.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Well, do you want to do one with me or no?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sure. Let's do it. You go first.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Okay. Okay. This is how we, this is how we do it on SNL. We do the thumb and the lip, right?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Even though he never did those things. And then we do the staircase, it's called. The staircase is like, "I love your shoes. I love your shoes."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, let me try it.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
"I love your shoes."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Oh, that's so good. Alright, well, here: "I love your shoes." I think you're much better at it. Alright, let me – here is one of my favorite clips of you. You are playing Tim Russert, the Moderator of this program, actually interviewing the real Senator John McCain. I want to play a clip for our viewers, get your reaction on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DARRELL HAMMOND:
What if President Bush does not run?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN:
I don't see any reason –
DARRELL HAMMOND:
What if he forgets to run?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN:
Alright, Tim. Alright, Tim.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
The president forgets to run for reelection. And the Republicans are without a candidate. Does John McCain then step in to fill that void?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN:
I would call the president and remind him to run.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
So you're running.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
How did you prepare for that? Did you watch a bunch of Meet the Press episodes to prepare?
DARRELL HAMMOND:
It was written by Jim Downey who's won us all those Emmys, is a legendary, fabled writer. In Downey and Gore – I’m sorry, with both Russert and Gore, Downey came to me in my dressing room before the show and literally gave me line readings. He put his head down, had him looking like that. He – "hang my head." He literally gave me line readings. I copied what I saw him do in my dressing room both in the Gore/Bush debates and with Russert. I mean, that's one of those things. You're assisted by people who win Emmys, writers, hair and makeup, wardrobe, lighting, everything. I mean, there's a whole big team involved in putting that product out there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. You put your whole body, heart and soul into it. And I think that's what made each of those characters so special, Darrell. You know, we live in such divided times right now. What role do you think SNL plays in our politics, in our culture, right now?
DARRELL HAMMOND:
It's interesting that when you tell a political joke and the audience laughs, you can conclude they basically understand your premise, and they basically agree with you. So that's what's being put out there every week. They're taking a look at both sides. Here is what you're looking at these days. Up to you to make a choice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Finally, Darrell, as we approach tonight's special, what are you looking forward to most? What do you hope people who watch take away from the special tonight?
DARRELL HAMMOND:
They just – they saw the greatest show in history. I mean, I don't know how to put it any other way. It's the most successful show in history. What you're going to see tonight is every star you ever heard of. You're going to see cast members past and present from SNL. You're going to see figures from the sports world. The biggest, the brightest, the best, are going to be there doing their thing tonight. And I hope everyone loves it. I'm sure it's going to be great.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Alright, well, I'm going to work on my Bill Clinton impersonation. But thank you so much for joining us. We will be watching. We'll be laughing. And here's to 50 more. Thank you so much, Darrell Hammond. Such a pleasure to have you.
DARRELL HAMMOND:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you can see Saturday Night Live’s 50th Anniversary Special tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern only on NBC. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We will be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.