KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: law and order.
NY ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES:
Today we proved that no one is above the law.
KRISTEN WELKER:
A judge orders Donald Trump to pay over $350 million after finding him liable for fraud.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
A fine of $355 million for doing a perfect job.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And now a date is set for his first criminal trial in the New York hush money case.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I’m going to have to sit here for months on a trial. I think it’s ridiculous. It’s unfair.
KRISTEN WELKER:
While the district attorney prosecuting Trump in Georgia takes the stand as a judge decides whether to remove her from the case.
DISTRICT ATTORNEY FANI WILLIS:
You're confused. You think I'm on trial. These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How will the GOP frontrunner’s legal liabilities impact the 2024 election? Plus: Russian threat. The White House says Ukraine is running out of ammunition and urging Republicans in Congress to act.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
History is watching.
KRISTEN WELKER:
While Putin's top critic dies in prison.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Putin is responsible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the House Intel chair faces backlash for warning of another threat: a new space-based weapon that could target U.S. satellites. I’ll talk exclusively to Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio. And: political motives.
SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY:
Even a trusted FBI informant has alleged a bribe to the Biden family.
KRISTEN WELKER:
An FBI informant at the center of the GOP efforts to impeach President Biden has been charged with lying.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
It’s been an outrageous effort from the beginning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will impeachment efforts fade? I’ll speak with Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. And in our Meet the Moment conversation: Patti Davis, the daughter of Ronald Reagan.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you think your father would say about our current state of politics?
PATTI DAVIS:
I think he would be really scared for our democracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Mara Liasson, National Political Correspondent for NPR, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. We are one week out from the South Carolina Republican primary, but this week the frontrunner former President Trump was on defense: his legal battles growing, Biden impeachment efforts suffering a setback and mounting concerns about how he would confront Vladimir Putin if he is re-elected. On Friday, the former president faced a stunning legal and financial defeat. A judge in New York ordered him to pay a massive $355 million penalty, an amount which could rise to more than $450 million with interest. The ruling also bars Trump from personally running a business in New York for three years.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The judges and prosecutors that were dealing with me are essentially all the same. Different wrappings, tone, manner but always the same.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The blow to Trump's business comes after the special counsel investigating Hunter Biden charged a former informant at the center of the impeachment case against President Biden with lying to the FBI. Leading House Republicans had repeatedly pointed to intelligence from that informant as central to their case for impeaching the president:
[START TAPE]
SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY:
Even a trusted FBI informant has alleged a bribe to the Biden family.
REP. JAMES COMER:
He’s one of our most trusted, highest-paid, most credible FBI informants.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
That to me is really the heart of this matter. The most corroborating evidence we have is the 1023 form from this highly credible confidential human source.
PETER ALEXANDER:
An FBI informant at the center of the impeachment inquiry into you has been indicted for allegedly lying. Your reaction to that, and should the inquiry be dropped?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
He is lying, and it should be dropped. And it's just been a – it's been an outrageous effort from the beginning.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
All of that comes against mounting tensions with Russia. Ukrainian troops were forced to withdraw from a key town on the eastern front, the highest-profile retreat by Ukrainian forces in months. This week the Senate passed a foreign aid package for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan, but so far that appears to have no path in the House.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
It’s about time they step up, don’t you think? Instead of going on a two-week vacation. Two weeks, they’re walking away. Two weeks. The idea we need anything more to get the Ukraine aid – I mean, I mean, this is in light of the former president's statement saying, “Russia, if they haven't been paid the dues to us, go get them.” Come on.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Friday, Russian authorities announced that opposition leader Alexei Navalny, Putin's fiercest critic, had died at a penal colony in Siberia, where he was being held. Ukrainian President Zelenskyy pleaded for more help:
[START TAPE]
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
After the murder of Alexei Navalny, it's absurd to perceive Putin as a supposedly legitimate head of a Russian state, and he is a thug who maintains power through corruption and violence.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
House Intelligence Chairman Republican Mike Turner caused a stir on Capitol Hill this week after he issued an extraordinary statement calling on the White House to declassify information about an unnamed, quote, “serious national security threat.” The new intelligence, now public, indicates that Russia is moving closer to developing an antisatellite weapon for use in space that would have the ability to destroy U.S. satellites. Late Saturday, I spoke with Chairman Turner from Munich, where he has been meeting with European allies.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is House Intelligence Chairman, Republican Mike Turner. Chairman Turner, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Thank you, Kristen. Appreciate it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we appreciate having you from Munich. As you know, you created a bit of a firestorm in Washington this week when you sounded the alarm about the national security threat related to a Russian anti-satellite weapon. The New York Times is now reporting that the concern is whether Russia might put a real nuclear weapon in space. Based on the intelligence you have seen, how serious is the threat?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, the – the threat is very serious. Everyone who's looked at it used the same language that I have, that it is a very serious threat. And I'm very – I’m very glad that the administration is beginning to take action. We met with Jake Sullivan, and he began to lay out a plan that hopefully would begin to address this. I understand that Secretary Blinken here at Munich met with leaders from China and India, according to how the New York Times is reporting. That certainly would be an important big step to try to avert this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden has said this is not a nuclear threat, though. Do you agree with that assessment? How should people be viewing this?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, I can't – I can’t confirm or deny this. What I have called for is for the administration to declassify this. And my concern is that this is kind of like the Chinese spy balloon, and the – the administration is kind of hiding perhaps some inaction. The – but as this becomes more and more public and the administration grapples with – with what we're dealing with, I think they are going to be taking it seriously. I think they will be taking action. And that, obviously, is the goal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, look, some of your colleagues expressed concerns that you were causing a panic with this warning. Others worried that you were jeopardizing intelligence. Was the way that you sounded this alarm about this threat responsible, Chairman Turner?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Yeah, so the – our rules under the committee, and really the purpose for our committee, is that when we receive intelligence that the House of Representatives should – should view, that we have the ability to share it. But the rules provide that we're supposed to first do this in consultation with the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which we did. And including our statement, which we sent to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and received no – no objections whatsoever. Our committee voted 23 to 1 to vote this out of the committee and send it to the members of Congress, believing that they needed to know this information. And also, the statement that we issued to the members was signed both by me and my – my ranking member. So this was not just an action by myself. But I am glad, after meeting with Jake Sullivan, that the administration is taking this seriously, and we'll now be able to see action from the administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, well let's talk about Ukraine specifically. A key city has now fallen to Russian forces. President Zelenskyy in his remarks there in Munich called for more U.S. aid, calling it “vital.” But many House Republicans have argued the U.S. can't send – keep sending billions of dollars without a clear strategy. You've spoken to Zelenskyy. Is the Republican Party in danger of basically surrendering Ukraine to Vladimir Putin?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, the – the Speaker has made a commitment to secure the funding for – for Ukraine. When we met with Zelenskyy today, we did meet in the backdrop of – of Ukraine troops having conceded land to Russia as a result of shortage of stockpiles of weapons. Zelenskyy described the math that he's facing of dwindling stockpiles at the same time Russia is turning to both Iran and North Korea for weapon systems. Zelenskyy, of course, did not blame his current situation, nor what occurred today, on the delay that's occurring, although he did indicate that he's certainly worried that the delay could cause a gap in weapons getting to the Ukraine. Those in attendance of the U.S. delegation certainly pledged their support. And I do think that there is an opportunity when we get back to Washington to move this important aid package forward because it is so critical. You know, Vladimir Putin is a murderous thug. And what he is doing and the atrocities and the war crimes in Ukraine need to be responded to. I was speaking to the mayor of Kyiv today. And he was saying this is the front line of the – of the authoritarian regimes in democracy. And it is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, as you know, President Zelenskyy has been asking for this aid since October, for five months now. Has Speaker Johnson given you any assurances that he is going to bring Ukraine aid to the floor?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, President Johnson has made a number of public statements committing to finding a pathway for the aid for Ukraine. I believe him. I think that we will. And this does need to get done. This is absolutely critical for U.S. support for Ukraine and to oppose Russian aggression.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But as you know, a lot of Republicans oppose this, Chairman Turner. Do you believe Donald Trump's opposition to sending more funding to Ukraine is the reason why it doesn't have more support among Republicans?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, certainly people are very disappointed that the negotiations on the border deal in the Senate broke down and did not result in a plan. Now, the House of Representatives passed H.R.2, which would've resulted in closing the border, the Remain in Mexico policy of the prior administration, and would've allowed for moving forward with aid for Ukraine, Taiwan –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Chairman –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
– and Israel. All important funding.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Chairman, Republicans asked for the border deal. A lot of Republicans said that the Senate deal was the best deal that they'd seen in decades. But sticking on this question, do you place some of the responsibility on Donald Trump for the reason that more Republicans don't support sending more aid to Ukraine, which you have now just said is critical?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
It is critical. And I think there's certainly a sufficient support in both the House of Representatives and the Senate in order to get that aid package done. I think members who are in opposition, you know, have had their own path to get there, their own concerns. But I do know that if you look at this issue of the – the effects of allowing Russia to continue in its aggression, the fact that it would jeopardize other areas of Europe. This is very, very important for the United States to stand strong and stand with Ukraine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's talk about Russian aggression. Former President Trump recently said he would “encourage” Russia to invade NATO countries who he says haven't paid their bills. You have endorsed him. Are you comfortable with him saying that, Chairman?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, this is what I know. When Donald Trump was president he actually increased funding to NATO itself. He continues to push countries to – to fully fund, to meet the 2% commitment that each of them have. And I know that his – his work is important to get increase funding to Ukraine – excuse me, increase funding to – to NATO. You're already seeing NATO countries begin to spend more as a result of Donald Trump's words, and I think that's kind of important.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
He's motivating them to do so, but I think he is very, very strong in his support for NATO.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Mr. Chairman, the words that he said this week, he said, “I would encourage them,” Russia, “to do whatever the heck they wanted. You’ve got to pay. You’ve got to pay your bills.” Are you comfortable with that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
This is what I know. Donald Trump's political rallies don't really translate into Donald Trump's actual policies. If you look at his policies, if you look at his record, he actually increased funding for NATO, increased the European Reassurance Initiative, and in fact for Ukraine, he was the first president to give lethal weapons to Ukraine. So I think his record is strong, and I think that's what's important.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As we're having this interview, former President Trump has not yet spoken out on the death of Putin opposition leader Alexei Navalny. President Biden said Russia is responsible for his death. You met with Navalny's widow in Munich. What did she tell you, Mr. Chairman?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
You know, in a dramatic moment here, she took the stage at the Munich Security Conference, just as the world was learning that Navalny had – had passed. She expressed her surprise that – and her really disbelief – that her husband was dead. She later then met with the U.S. delegation. We prayed with her. We shared her sorrow. And certainly, she points the finger directly at – at Vladimir Putin, who had previously poisoned Navalny with military nerve agent, and then of course imprisoned him. And now Navalny is dead. This is certainly very troubling. It's part of the murderousness that we see, both in Ukraine and here, as the record of Vladimir Putin. And it certainly shows how dangerous he is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I guess the big question now is what happens next. President Biden has said he's considering his response. What do you think the consequences should be?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I think that as a result of Navalny's death, that – that we should even be that more strong in funding Ukraine and passing this in the House and Senate, and dedicated, in Navalny's off – in his legacy, sending a message to Putin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you about another headline this week. A former FBI informant has been charged with lying about Joe and Hunter Biden seeking millions of dollars in bribes from a Ukrainian company, allegations that are really central to the Republicans' effort to impeach the president. Now, you voted to support this impeachment inquiry. Do you think it's responsible to continue this inquiry given these charges against this FBI informant?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Absolutely. I mean, this – this inquiry, and it is an inquiry, is based upon actual bank records, documents, transactions of money, large sums of money. And doing an inquiry as to, you know, how these funds got to the Biden family from international sources – China, Russia, Ukraine – that is certainly an issue that – that Congress needs to take up. And I think the investigation will continue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Jordan said just a few weeks ago that “the most corroborating evidence” comes from this informant's allegations, and they are at the “heart” of the impeachment case. Even before that, Senator Lindsey Graham said to me there's no “smoking gun." So can you justify continuing with this impeachment inquiry?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I think you have to continue it until it reaches its natural conclusion. But I'm not surprised at all that a business associate and associate of the – the Biden family might be untruthful. But we'll just have to continue to see what the bank records, the transactions tell, how that story unfolds. And I believe that Chairman Comer's doing a great job in this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be clear, he was an FBI informant. Not necessarily an associate. I do want to turn to Trump's legal battles. On Friday, a judge ordered him to pay more than $350 million in his civil fraud case and has barred him from running a business in New York for three years. Do you trust someone who isn't allowed to run his own business to run the country, Mr. Chairman?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Actually, I don't trust this court decision. You know, being a practicing lawyer in commercial transactions, I think the whole premise of the case, which all legal analysts have said is unusual, is not really justifiable. We'll have to see ultimately how the appeals run in this case. But I think if this case stands, it's going to be a threat to really just all businesses, including those who are currently operating in New York.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But as you know, Mr. Chairman, this is not the only time that Mr. Trump has been fined for his business practices. In 2019, he was ordered to pay $2 million amid revelations that his charity misused funds. He was ordered to pay fines in 2018 related to his now-defunct university. Does that undercut his trustworthiness as a leader?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
You know, all of those issues were taken into consideration as the – as the country elected him to president last time. And his record as president is what we really need to look at. Our country was stronger. Our economy was stronger. And – and I think our border certainly being secured is probably the most important issue that Americans are going to look at. The 8 million people who have gone across the border during the Biden administration is absolutely an invasion. This is something that President Trump had addressed. And the fact that President Biden reversed by executive orders that – those issues that had been put in place to protect our country are going to be important to voters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Chairman, as you know, the border migration has been an issue for decades under Republican, Democratic presidents because there hasn't been comprehensive immigration reform. But let me ask you about something else because the House is on recess for two weeks. You only have a handful of days to avert a government shutdown. Do you think a government shutdown is inevitable, given that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, I'm absolutely opposed to a government shutdown. And I do think that Speaker Johnson is diligently working with the leadership in the House and the Senate to put together a package that hopefully can pass the House and the Senate. And I think he's certainly going to work diligently to ensure that we don't have a government shutdown. But I am adamantly opposed to a government shutdown. I do believe that it is detrimental, not only to our – our country, but also our government.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we will have to see what happens. Chairman Mike Turner, thank you so much for joining us from Munich.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Kristen, thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Thanks, Kristen.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. NBC News has learned that Special Counsel Robert Hur, who investigated President Biden's handling of classified documents, will testify next month, March 12th, before the House Judiciary Committee. Hur found the evidence was not strong enough to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Republicans on the committee wrote to Attorney General Merrick Garland asking that he provide the full transcript of Hur's interview with President Biden. Joining me now is Democratic senator Amy Klobuchar. Senator Kobuchar, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Thank you. It's great to be back on. Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it is great to have you, Senator. Let's start right there. We do expect the Special Counsel Robert Hur to appear before the House Judiciary Committee. Will the Senate Judiciary Committee call Hur to testify? Should it?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Well, that is up to Senator Durbin. But I will say that Hur is conducting his own investigation, and he has concluded very clearly that there was no criminal liability here for the president. And that was his focus, right? And that got decided. And I think there are many other things that we need to do on the Judiciary Committee, including passing some legislation when it comes to tech, including many other issues related to fentanyl and the like that we're focused on. But again, that will be Senator Durbin's call.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you this. The report described President Biden as a quote, "Elderly man with a poor memory." Do you think the White House should allow the release of the full transcript without claiming executive privilege for the sake of transparency, Senator?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
You know, that is going to be, again, up to the president and his lawyers. But I've got to comment on this just from my own personal experience. I was on Air Force One with the president, going from Minnesota to Wisconsin for – going from Washington D.C. to Wisconsin for an infrastructure project. And I was with the president for over an hour and talked about so many things, domestic, international. He was focused. His recall was good. It was the same experience that my colleagues had who met with him for hours, Democrats and Republicans, about the Mideast only a few weeks ago. And so I think that we've got to evaluate what's happening right now by, one, what he has done, which is bring us out of this pandemic, first time that we're finally seeing negotiation on prescription drug prices, and focus on what matters to the American people and compare what he is doing to what we've got as the alternative on the Republican side, which is Donald Trump–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–who is nothing but standing up week by week for chaos.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Senator, you take me to my next point, which is on 2024. As you know, concerns have been growing from quite some time within your party about President Biden's ability to win a second term. The latest person to express this, Ezra Klein of The New York Times, who said this week, quote, "He is not up for this. He is not the campaigner he was even five years ago. The way he moves, the energy in his voice. The Democrats denying decline are only fooling themselves." Senator, what is your reaction to that stark assessment?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
My reaction is, as someone who ran against Joe Biden, as someone who has spent significant amount of time with Joe Biden, that he is up for this job. And again, I just keep looking at the facts. Our country, the GDP, our unemployment rate, the fact that we're now at the place where we can tackle the challenges before us, which is things like housing and child care. And then I look – you can’t – you've got to look at the alternative here as well. Joe Biden has been standing up for women's health care. Joe Biden's not the one that has called for a national abortion ban. Joe Biden is standing up for women's health care and believes that women should make their own decisions about their health care and not politicians. That is a stark difference. I look at the facts, the actual numbers, when you look across the country. The fact that in New York Congressman Suozzi won that race, swinging it by 16 points, because he stood up for what Joe Biden is standing up for: infrastructure, finally doing something at the border on a bipartisan basis and giving the president the emergency powers that he needs, standing up against election deniers. You look at what happened in Kentucky with Governor Beshear, the abortion measure that was on the ballot in Ohio, the supreme court race in Wisconsin. Time and time again the American people have stood with the policies and the work of Joe Biden–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–because they do not want to go back to the chaos and madness of Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me just follow up with you a little bit here because you cite those figures on the economy and yet the vast majority of Americans say they are not feeling it, when it comes to the economy. They give President Biden low marks on the economy. It's not resonating with voters. Why do you think – you obviously ran against President Biden in 2020. He promised that, essentially, he would build a bridge to the next generation. Do you think it's time to pass the torch?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Again, I'm a believer in President Biden because I believe he is a good moral person that has the backs of the people of this country. And just the examples I cited as time and time again people have sided with that over election deniers and the like. So, I am proud to be supporting Joe Biden for president. As far as the challenges, the challenges are real. And that is why, not just President Biden but many of us in the Senate, have been leading the way on bringing down costs. You've got to not just talk the talk–
KRISTEN WELKER:
But voters don't–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–to take–
KRISTEN WELKER:
–feel it, Senator–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–on the pharmaceutical–
KRISTEN WELKER:
–voters say–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–companies. You actually have–
KRISTEN WELKER:
They – they don't–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– to pass –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– feel it. Why?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– the bill, which we have done. Pardon? I didn't hear the question.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Voters say they don't feel it. They're not feeling the impacts, the numbers, the figures that you're talking about. They don't feel it in their pocketbooks when they go to the grocery store to buy groceries. Why is that? And do you think he has time to reverse this, the low marks he's getting on that critical point of the economy?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Okay. Well, there are many challenges in front of us, and people are going to have to decide if they want to go back to that chaos or look at someone that actually has the proof points of working on bringing costs down. And if you want to talk about numbers and polls and how people are feeling, let me give you some numbers. Thirty-five – $35 a month. That's how much insulin is going to be for our seniors and actually for others as wel,l as the prices are rolling out. Number two, 3.4 million. That's how many veterans are going to be helped by taking on toxic burn pits. 40,000. There's a number. That's how many infrastructure projects, including the bridge from Minnesota to Wisconsin, that are getting funded and completed right now as we speak. So there is a case to make, and there's also a case to make. He is not running, as the president has said, against the almighty. He is running against Donald Trump. And time and time again, the voters have made clear where they stand on Donald Trump. Independents, modern Republicans –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– they want to support someone who believes in democracy and has led the world against tyrants like Vladimir Putin, as opposed to Donald Trump –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, well –
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– who literally a week ago said that Donald – that Vladimir Putin should be able to do whatever the hell he wants. Those are exact words, where he said “they”, as in Russia and Putin, should be able to do whatever the hell they want.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
And what happens now? One of his leading opponents dies–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let – let’s –
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–Vladimir Putin's opponent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let’s – we're going to talk about –
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
That's what we're –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– all of that –
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– dealing with. He was killed.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We’re – we're going to talk about all of that.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Okay.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about Ukraine aid. The vice president spoke with my colleague Andrea Mitchell at the Munich Security Conference about the need to pass Ukraine aid. Let's listen. I'm going to get your reaction on the other side.
[START TAPE]
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Do you think that Ukraine can survive a year, this year, on the battlefield without American aid?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Ukraine needs our support, and we must give it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
It has been five months since the president made his first ask. Does he need to get Republicans to the White House and fight to get this over the finish line because clearly right now it is stalled in the House. I understand that's not the White House. But does he need to get them back from their vacation and try to get a deal here?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
The president has been doing that. I was heartened by Congressman Turner's words in your interview just about the fact that there are Republicans that want to move forward on this.And let me – Ukraine has been an absolute incredible force. President Zelenskyy. They have taken back half the territory from Russia that they got in the invasion. They have just shot down a war ship. They have opened up trade again on the Black Sea. They have done this, despite the fact that, right now, rounds of ammunition, Russia, 10,000 a day, Ukraine, 2,000 a day. So, our job right now, if you talk about avenging the death of the hero Navalny, if you talk about anything for our democracy – and actually for our economic partners across the world – it is to get this security package over the line. And so extreme Republicans are stopping it right now. The president's standing up for it. The Senate is standing up. Twenty-two Republicans–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator–
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– in the U.S. Senate voted for it, including the lead Republicans on Armed Services–
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Senator –
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– and Foreign Relations. It's time for them to get the job done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden put the blame squarely at the feet of Vladimir Putin for the death of Alexei Navalny. He says he's considering next steps. What should the consequences be? What do you want to see the president do here?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
The best thing we can do is to make sure we have the backs of the Ukrainian people. That is the best thing–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sanctions?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
– because when you look at what this funding is for, it is for making sure our own troops, in places like Poland, are funded so they can be a deterrent for any additional Russian invasions because who stops Vladimir Putin if he marches right into Kyiv, marches right into Ukraine, from going further. I've stood on that border. I have been in Poland. I have been with President Zelenskyy in Ukraine. And this is an international crisis. So the consequences–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
–are what has happened so far with Ukraine killing or injuring over 300,000 Russian troops. But the consequences are – will mean nothing unless we stand with our allies and stand with Ukraine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you so much for joining us this Sunday. We really appreciate it.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Donald Trump ordered to pay over $350 million in his civil fraud case and now a trial date set for his first criminal trial in the New York hush money case. What will the impact be on the 2024 race? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Thanks to all of you for being here. Mara, let me start with you. We're one week out minus a day from the South Carolina primary. Of course, we learned on Friday that Trump got slapped with this $350 plus million fine for this civil fraud suit in New York. How does this all impact where we are in the 2024 race? Because so far his legal battles have only emboldened him.
MARA LIASSON:
Right. I don't think it affects the primary at all. It's actually been a benefit for him. But when we get to the general, things might be different. First of all, we're going to have – maybe – juries, actually juries of his peers potentially reaching verdicts, unlike just judges. We also know from polling that Independent swing voters and some Trump supporters say they will not vote for him if he's convicted. Now, we don't know if he's going to be convicted. We don't even know if these trials are going to happen before Election Day. And to me that's the biggest question, especially on the January 6th trial, which is the most important. You can even argue it's the only important one. We don't know if that's going to happen before –
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is one –
MARA LIASSON:
– the election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is one of the biggest X factors. There's no doubt about that. Sara, Nikki Haley has tried to make this part of her focus in these closing days in her home state of South Carolina. But she's still trailing Trump by double digits, 30 points in some polls.
SARA FAGEN:
Yes, I agree with Mara. I don't think this is an issue that helps in the primary. And then the question is, you know, does it help in the general? And I think there's some evidence that suggests that even though people say it'll affect their vote, there's so few undecided voters, even at this very early day, that, you know, a trial that happens before may not have much impact on the actual outcome of the election.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I do think this. I think it makes it harder for him to persuade voters, right? We know –
KRISTEN WELKER:
General election voters?
CORNELL BELCHER:
General election voters. We know that 46% –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Moderates.
CORNELL BELCHER:
– 47%, right, he has a ceiling. He needs to grow that, in order to – we forget, he lost the election, right? He lost the election. And he needs to grow his base of support. How does he grow his base of support with all this hanging over? I think it makes it more difficult. But, also, that Turner interview was really good, by the way, with Chairman Turner. But that is actually, I think, the larger problem. Because you have Republicans in battleground Congressional districts who are going to have to answer the same sort of tough questions that you laid before Chairman Turner. I think it makes it harder for them as well.
SARA FAGEN:
I mean, unfortunately we live in a time in politics where so many things get sensationalized. Impeachment is now just something that happens to the other party when somebody takes over power. And I think so much of this gets dismissed. I mean, this election will come down to 3%-5% of the electorate, and perhaps there's a Supreme Court ruling on January 6th that is impactful, but perhaps not.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, when we talk about the Trump trials, one that was in focus this week was down in Georgia where district attorney Fani Willis took the stand to defend herself against accusations she was having a relationship with one of her top prosecutors, Nathan Wade. The Trump team is trying to get her dismissed. Let's take a little bit of that and discuss it on the other side.
[START TAPE]
FANI WILLIS:
Well, let's be clear, because you lied. And let me tell which one you lied in, right here. I think you lied right here.
MALE VOICE:
Your Honor, I'm –
FANI WILLIS:
No, no, no. This is the truth, Judge. And –
FANI WILLIS:
It is a lie. It is a lie.
(OVERTALK)
JUDGE:
Let's just stand down. Thank you. We're going to take five minutes.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mara, what was the impact of this moment, this testimony?
MARA LIASSON:
Look, the impact could have gone either way. Some people felt that she was being treated unfairly. Other people thought this undermines her case. The big question is: Will Fani Willis be removed from this case, which to me is kind of a corroborating case to January 6th. It's another case about Donald Trump trying to change the outcome of the election, throw out millions of people's votes. He asked the Secretary of State to find him the 11,000 votes he needed. This doesn't help Fani Willis's case. But I think this case could still continue even if she was removed.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I think this is why so many people dislike politics, right? And it is. We all heard the, "find me some more votes." And the problem is, look, I get it. We got to cover it because it's sex, lies, and affairs. And it sells. And there was great stuff for social media that came out of there. But it does not undermine – whether she's on the case or not, the fundamental case against him is fairly strong.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sara?
SARA FAGEN:
So, at one point I thought this was the most problematic case for President Trump and his election prospects. I think because of this it now just gets wrapped up on this whole broad politicization of taking Trump to court. My own view is the New York case should never have been brought. And when you look at it, it was an attorney general bringing the case. It wasn't the insurance company. It wasn't the bank. And it was all politics. And this I think now gets swept up in that. And it's just now politics. And so very few people are going to decide based on these cases.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that's the one going to trial next month –
SARA FAGEN:
Well –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– remarkably.
SARA FAGEN:
Yeah, that's going to trial. I think the bigger problem for Georgia is the timing. And so, to Cornell's point, one of these cases actually has to get decided before the election if it is to have an impact.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
SARA FAGEN:
And this just delays it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, a policy issue that has been in the spotlight this week, abortion, Mara. Because revelations, the New York Times first reported, NBC News has confirmed that Trump is considering backing a 16-week federal ban. He likes, I'm told, a nice round number. What do you make of this? What's the implication?
MARA LIASSON:
Well, there's two aspects to this. Democrats are going to say, "He is for a national ban. He doesn't want states to decide. Every blue state that's codified Roe, that's going to go in the garbage can." So that's one impact of it. But the second thing that I think is incredibly interesting is that Donald Trump is acting like a normal politician. He usually doesn't do that. But he's moving, trying, if this story is true, to move the center on abortion for the general election to get more where the majority of voters are. And you know what? There is a consensus on abortion in this country. It used to be called Roe. Sixteen weeks is a little earlier than Roe, but people want abortion to either be mostly legal with some exceptions or mostly illegal with some exemptions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sara, we have about a minute left. So what do you make of what Mara's saying?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I think it's very politically smart for Trump. Because Republicans have been on their heels since the Supreme Court overturned Roe. And it's been a debate about Republicans banning abortion. This is going to move the debate to Democrats being for abortion up to nine months. And so, in that respect, it's prudent politically. He should be for 15 weeks, not 16 weeks. Why take that heat from your right flank?
CORNELL BELCHER:
I know we're out of time. But no, it just brings abortions front and center. The 15-point gender gap in 2020 could be a 15-point gender gap right now, with them pushing this abortion issue. It's a losing issue for them. I'm glad they're pushing –
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is going to be one –
CORNELL BELCHER:
– that forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– of the biggest issues of this race. There's no doubt about that. Thank you for a great conversation. When we come back, as world leaders gather to discuss global security, we'll reflect back on the warning from an American senator worried about the dangers of authoritarianism. Our Meet The Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The Munich Security Conference wrapped up today after a week marked by warnings on the Russia threat and the death of Putin critic Alexei Navalny. Seven years ago, freedom of the press was top of mind with then-President Trump's repeated attacks on what he called the "enemy of the people." Senator John McCain joined this broadcast from Munich with his reaction.
[START TAPE]
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN:
I hate the press. I hate you, especially. But the fact is we need you. We need a free press. We must have. It's vital. If you want to preserve -- I'm very serious now -- if you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and many times adversarial press. And without it, I'm afraid that we would lose so much of our individual liberties over time. That's how dictators get started.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Patti Davis, the daughter of Ronald Reagan, on what her father would say about our current political climate. Meet the Moment is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. With presidential family members often in the spotlight these days, Patti Davis, the daughter of Ronald and Nancy Reagan, is reintroducing Americans to her family: one they've had in their living rooms for decades. In a deeply personal book, "Dear Mom and Dad," written as a letter to her parents, Davis reflects on her father, who she writes "parented America" and her mother, who she had a more difficult relationship with, hoping her book can be what she calls a, quote, "comfort for others as they come to terms with parents and families who have left them searching for answers." As our politics often feels broken, Davis joined us for a “Meet the Moment” conversation to talk about her father's legacy and her own.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
I wonder if you could reflect on today's politics. You write this beautiful account of Tip O'Neill visiting your father, his hospital bed, and how different our politics feel today – the inability to reach across the aisle, and frankly, to form those types of bonds where you can debate vigorously in Washington, but be there for each other on a very personal level. What do you think your father would say about our current state of politics?
PATTI DAVIS:
I think he would be so – I think he'd be appalled, really, you know? And yeah, they used to have martinis together, two, you know, old Irish guys, like, sharing a drink after. You know, it was like two lawyers battling it out in court, and then going and having a drink together, you know? It was just more civilized. And he didn't understand lack of civility. He didn't understand attacking another person. I mean, he could be, you know, pretty pointed in what he would say about someone else. But he didn't understand cruelty. And that's what we're dealing with now. And I think he wouldn't understand that. I think he would be really scared for our democracy. I don’t know who – I think he would address people more than any candidates, you know? I think he would address the American people at what has divided us. And, I mean, in my own opinion and, I don't know, I think this probably is how he would think, is our divisions really started because we're all so scared. There is so much fear around whether we're going to get shot in a mass shooting, or our children are or, you know, if you walk into a store is there going to be – or a church, wherever, you know? We're scared. And fear morphs into anger. It just does. It's not sustainable. We don't want to be afraid. We don't mind so much being angry. And, you know, there are people on the public stage and on the political front who understand very well that synergy between fear and anger and who are masterful at exploiting it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The other big issue that has been in the forefront right now is the issue of age. Your father when he was elected, at the time, was the oldest person elected president –
PATTI DAVIS:
Sixty-nine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– at 69.
PATTI DAVIS:
I know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, obviously, the president is in his eighties, former President Trump, the frontrunner, is in his late seventies. Do you think there should be cognitive tests for people running for the highest office in the land?
PATTI DAVIS:
Probably. Yeah. I mean, in just what we know about what age can do. It doesn't always do that, but it would probably be a good idea. Yeah, no, my father was 77 when he left office after two terms. It seems so young now, doesn't it?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. Did it seem at the time old to you? We talked about your dad as being at the time the oldest president.
PATTI DAVIS:
I don't think –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But did you –
PATTI DAVIS:
– it did –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– see him that way?
PATTI DAVIS:
– because, you know, it was '87 I believe when he stood in front of the Berlin Wall and said, you know, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." So, that was not someone who was, you know, fractured in age. I mean, yes, I probably thought he was old because he was my father, and we think that about our parents. But, you know, not in the way that we're talking about now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So much of the Republican party, to this day, still speaks about, wrestles with, debates your father's legacy, tries to emulate. What do you think your father's message would be if he were sitting here today, to the country, to our current politicians?
PATTI DAVIS:
I think he would want people to look at one another as human beings. You know, that's why he and Gorbachev were able to do what they did, which was world-changing at the time, because they looked at each other as human beings. And that's what's missing now. You know, these were two people who were put on the stage of history in a moment in time to, in my opinion, do what God intended them to do. They might not have, you know? But they were both two people who, I think, had the same agenda of looking at each other as a human being. Gorbachev came to my father's service in Washington, D.C. I got to meet him. He was a very shy, sort of vulnerable person. I mean, I only met him briefly but, you know, that's the impression that I got from him when I met him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You think we've lost that ability to look at each other as human beings?
PATTI DAVIS:
Yeah, I do. I do. For the most part, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just finally, Patti, when people read your book – I read it as a daughter, as a mom, and took so much from it from it –
PATTI DAVIS:
Oh, thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– from both places. What do you hope people take from your book, from sharing, opening up about this deeply personal part of your life and your heart?
PATTI DAVIS:
I hope they look at their own families and go, "Okay, how can I look at this differently? How can I take a step back?" – in the same way that you take a step back from a painting to really see the whole picture. "How can I step back from my family and my life and look at it differently, you know, and look at it through more mature eyes and through a more complete vision?" And then, if you can do that with your family, you can do that with other people, right? People are more complicated than they appear to be.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
A lot to reflect on there. You can see my full interview with Patti Davis at meetthepress.com. That is all for today, thanks for watching. Enjoy your long weekend. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.