KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: Russian reset. President Trump refuses to blame Russia for the war in Ukraine, seemingly embracing Moscow's views as he negotiates a deal to end the war.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
You've been there for three years. You should have ended it three years – you should have never started it. You could have made a deal.
KRISTEN WEKER:
While Republicans put the blame on Putin.
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
This man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How is President Trump changing America's relationship to allies and adversaries? Plus: deep cuts.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I wanted to find somebody smarter than him. I searched all over. I just couldn’t do it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
With thousands of federal workers fired and billions of dollars in funding frozen, how far is President Trump willing to go in allowing Elon Musk to reshape the government?
ELON MUSK:
This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And: Pentagon purge. President Trump fires the country's top uniformed officer. What will it mean for the military? My guests this morning: Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey and Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma. Plus, Steve Kornacki breaks down Mr. Trump's first month in office. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Melanie Zanona, Jonathan Martin of Politico, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. As the president marks his first month in office, there is growing fallout over the mass firings across the federal government. On Friday night, President Trump removing a number of senior military officers, including four-star General CQ Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And overnight, federal employees received an email asking them to summarize their work for the past week, Elon Musk adding, "Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation." It comes as his operatives are now working inside at least 18 departments and agencies. Musk punctuating the moment by brandishing a chainsaw at a conservative conference in Washington.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ELON MUSK:
This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Chainsaw.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
But we've escorted the radical left bureaucrats out of the building and locked the doors behind them. We've gotten rid of thousands.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Back in their districts, Republican lawmakers have been forced to defend the cuts to voters at town halls from Georgia to Oregon, Wisconsin and beyond.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GEORGIA RESIDENT:
I understand trying to do more with less. That's reasonable. What's not reasonable is taking this chainsaw approach, which they obviously admit when they fire these people then decide, "Oh, we fired the wrong people. We've got to bring them back in." Why is this thing jammed down the pipe so rushed and sloppily?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Even one of President Trump's allies, Fox News host Jesse Watters, urging the president to rethink the firings after learning a friend, a veteran, would be cut at the Pentagon.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JESSE WATTERS:
We just need to be a little bit less callous with the way, Harold, we talk about DOGE-ing people, okay? I want that to sink in.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now President Trump this week also upending decades of U.S. foreign policy towards Russia, suggesting Ukraine is to blame for being invaded by Russia three years ago.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Today I heard, "Oh, well, we weren't invited." Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it three years – You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Russian troops currently occupy about 20% of Ukraine's territory in the East and South. President Trump also falsely calling Ukrainian president Zelenskyy a dictator.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
A dictator without elections. Zelenskyy better move fast, or he's not going to have a country left.
REPORTER:
You've called President Zelenskyy of Ukraine a dictator. Do you think that President Putin of Russia is also a dictator?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I think that President Putin and President Zelenskyy are going to have to get together, because you know what? We want to stop killing millions of people.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The New York Post unleashing on Mr. Trump, showing Russian President Putin on its cover with the headline, "This is a dictator." We are now getting our first snapshot of how Americans are reacting to President Trump's first month in office. I'm joined now by NBC's Steve Kornacki. Steve, break down these numbers for us.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Yeah, Kristen, you aren't kidding. Just in the last couple days, five new polls out measuring that reaction from the public. You see them right here in the headlines. Polarizing a month into the second Trump presidency. You see his approval rating in four of these five polls is under 50%. In four of these five polls, his disapproval number is higher than his approval number. So by just about any historical standard, this is a low political position for a president to be in a month into his presidency, though it does - it is worth noting that the one exception to that would be Trump himself in his first term. This, in a way, nothing new for Trump. What you're looking at here, the average of our NBC polls, the first Trump presidency, 2017-2021. If you averaged all those together, Trump in his first term was underwater approval rating, 44-53. His absolute best marks still never got that approval number over the disapproval number. You see as low as it got. And average everything that's out there right now together, and you can see. How does where his current standing stack up? Kind of in that same range. So maybe another way of looking at this, another way this was asked, Quinnipiac asked folks out there, "There's a lot going on. Are you surprised by any of it?" And about a quarter of voters say Trump is exceeding their expectations in his first month here. About a quarter say he is failing to meet their expectations. Most, though, say for all of the swirl of activity here, this is pretty much what they expected. Let's look at some specific issues here, some actions, proposals from Trump here. Again, from all of these different polls, what's the most unpopular? What's setting off alarm bells here? You could see that call to end birthright citizenship. Only 39% support there. Firing federal workers. This question asked about potentially firing hundreds of thousands. 51% opposition. Look at this. This is the single least popular thing Trump has done in this second term: pardoning January 6 offenders, including violent offenders. More than 80% opposed. On the flip side, he's done some things, proposed some things that are popular: that executive order to expand oil and gas production, the executive order recognizing two sexes. And also when you look at immigration, there's all sorts of different ways to ask about it, but the CBS poll here had asked the general Trump administration program to deport immigrants who are here illegally. You see broad support there when it's asked at the broad level like that. Look at the personalities now, the public faces of this administration, not just the president. The vice president, and of course you were just talking about Elon Musk. What you're measuring here is just basic popularity. Do you have a favorable, unfavorable view of these people? Again that Trump number looks just like his approval rating does. You could see Vance, it's about evenly split. With Musk, it is now 50% unfavorable. And then when you ask folks just about that job that Musk has taken inside the government here, trying to find - trying to make cuts here, again you could see 49% disapproval, only a third approving. We say a lot of similarities politically to Trump's first term in the polls. Here's a difference. Remember, Trump's political strength in his first term was the economy. Again, averaging all our polls from the first Trump presidency together, nearly 50% across those four years were saying they approved of how Trump handled the economy. We know how politically potent that issue is. He campaigned on it last year. But attitudes towards the economy have not improved so far. And now it's nearly 50% who disapprove of how Trump's handling the economy. Now this is early, obviously, in his presidency. But we know the potency of the economy politically, and this may - these numbers right here may loom right now, Kristen, as the biggest single immediate political challenge for Donald Trump and for the Republican Party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just a fascinating look at what Americans think right now as we prepare to enter the second month of the Trump administration. Steve Kornacki, thanks so much.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Hey, thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:And joining me now is Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma. Senator Mullin, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Thanks for having me on, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. Let's start with the effort to end the war in Ukraine, that war now about to stretch into its fourth year, incredibly hard to believe. Senator Mullin, do you acknowledge that Vladimir Putin is responsible for starting the war in Ukraine?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
You know, I think what President Trump was meaning – not think, I know what he was meaning – is we gave Zelenskyy multiple warnings that there needed to be a negotiations before the war even started. And President Trump is absolutely correct. If he was in office, this war would have never, ever taken place. What we're trying to do and what President Trump is trying to do is end the killing. It's been going on for three years. The Biden administration turned a blind eye to it, and President Trump is the president that can end the war. There, fact – fact and simple.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I guess, but I didn't hear an answer to the question of, "Did Vladimir Putin start the war?" You yourself said when Russia invaded Ukraine three years ago, quote, "I strongly condemn the unjustified and unprovoked attack on Ukraine." So just to be clear, Senator, do you still believe this was an unjustified and unprovoked attack on Ukraine by Russia?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
You know, what – what we believe is this war should have never taken place. And what we're trying to do here is put President Trump in a good position to negotiate the end of the war. It's the same way that – that Reagan worked with Gorbachev by trying to end the Cold War. Trump is the president that's going to be able to end the killings that should have never taken place and would have never taken place if he would have been in office instead of Joe Biden. The reason why is because President Trump leads peace through strength. What Biden led through is appeasement. And that doesn't work on the world stage. And I do believe 100% that we don't want to attack – back the president or this administration into a corner on saying things that might damage the ability for President Trump to negotiate the – an end to this war. And President Trump is a dealmaker. He will end this war.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and of course there's no way to go back in history and know what may or may not have happened under a different president. But let me ask you this. I want to play some –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Well, I – I don’t – I don’t know if you can – no, I don't know if you can say that –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– of your Senate Republican – Senator –
SEN.MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– because if you look at the – well, if you look at the history of this, just look at the history –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– Crimea was invaded underneath Obama. No, he did not invade any of Ukraine when Biden – when Trump was in office. He invaded –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– Ukraine when Biden went into office. So I think there is a history to say that there's a pretty good –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– 99.9% chance it wouldn't have happened if Trump would have been in office or if Biden would have simply used the same peace through strength –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– foreign policy that Trump had.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Senator, I think the question is, "Can President Trump be critical and tough on Putin right now?" Let me play you some of what your Senate Republican colleagues had to say this week. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. ROGER WICKER:
Putin is a war criminal and should be in jail for the rest of his life if not executed.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
He's a gangster with a Blackhawk. I don’t – he makes Jeffrey Dahmer look like Mother Theresa.
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
This man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, is it important for the president of the United States, who speaks for all of the country, to be honest and critical of Vladimir Putin?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
I think the president's been very critical of Putin. And I'm not sitting here defending Putin. Putin's not a good guy. At the same time, that's up to the Russian people. That's not up to us to make that decision. What President Trump is trying to do is end the war. And he's trying to end the war from a – from a peace – place of strength. You don't end a way from a place of weakness, which is why Biden could never end the war. Trump is going to be able to end the war. He’s gonna – he said he was going to do it when he was on the campaign trail, and he's kept his promises, and he's going to continue to deliver on those promises.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me zoom out and ask you big picture. Do you think the United States should stay in NATO, Senator?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
You know, if it's in our interest, I absolutely do. But right now, NATO has not always been playing in – in our best interest. And when it's not in Americans' best interest anymore, then we should relook at things. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, expecting different results. We see NATO, and we see U.N. sometimes weaponizing against the United States, and we're the biggest funder of it. And if it's not in the taxpayers' best interest, if it's not in Americans' foreign policy best interest, then we need to look at a – look at a different approach.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The United States has historically determined that it is in the United States' best security interest.
SENATOR MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Historically.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy himself has said he believes that Russian troops are amassing potentially in Belarus, could be potentially eyeing the possibility of going into other NATO nations. Can European members and NATO count on the United States and President Trump to help defend them if they are attacked by Russia, Senator?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Well, I – I don’t – first of all, I don't believe for a second that Russia is going to advance a war in any other country right now. It'd be extremely dangerous, and he will call President Trump's hand. President Trump does not just simply say idle words. He delivers it. We saw what happened in Syria. Keep in mind, in Syria, he told Russia to stay out of it in 2017. They went ahead and helped Assad, and they delivered chemical weapons on their own people. What did President Trump do? Within 30 minutes, he – they kicked Russia out of the airspace and completely destroyed their airfield that they were operating underneath. Russia and Putin fears President Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you about the breaking news that happened late Friday night, when President Trump fired Joint Chiefs of Staff CQ Brown, who President himself – President Trump himself picked five years ago to lead the Air Force. I want to play you some of what Democratic Congressman James Clyburn had to say in reaction. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
LAURA COATES:
Is that why you think the president has let him go? Because he's Black?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
That's what I think. When they say DEI, we know what it means. As I heard somebody say earlier today, they are substituting these acronyms for the N-word. So why would you apply the term "woke" to General Brown? What does that mean?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Mullin, what is your reaction to Congressman Clyburn? Do you think that CQ Brown was fired because he's Black?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Unfortunately, Congressman Clyburn, he constantly pulls the race card out. This has nothing to do with this. We're a civilian force, and the president gets to choose his closest advisors. And the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is his closest advisors. Obviously he said very positive things about General Brown, even when he was dismissing him. But the president has a right to pick people around him that he wants to – that he trusts. And at some point, he chose to go a different direction. This had zero, absolutely zero to do with race. Keep in mind, the reason why he was promoted the first time was because President Trump did that in his – in his last administration. So it's dangerous every time the left wants to pull out the race card. It's dangerous and reckless and ridiculous.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let's turn now to these steep government cuts that we're seeing. They're starting to be felt across the country. Here are some recent headlines in your home state of Oklahoma. Quote, "Federal layoffs felt across Indigenous communities in Oklahoma." "Oklahoma University president says the National Institutes of Health funding cut would severely impact university research." "Thousands of Oklahoma veterans and caregivers struggle amid cuts to VA." This comes as there have been town halls all across the country, including in Oklahoma, protesting these cuts. What is your message to the people of Oklahoma who say they are being hurt by these cuts by President Trump and Elon Musk?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Well, let's – let’s go back and talk about their protest. The chair of the DNC, Ken Martin, openly admitted on MSNBC just yesterday that they were manufacturing these protests. They were bussing in armies to manufacture these protests.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But what about the headlines in your state –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Now let's talk about the cuts. The American people –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hold on. Senator. What about the headlines in your state?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Well, I'll get to that. I'll get to that. Let’s – I will get to that. Let's talk about the NIH. The funding has been abused all across universities. We have Ivy League, from Harvard to – to – to Yale, that's using 68%, 69% of NIH funding for monies other than research, meaning overhead. You have the University of Oklahoma that 55% of the dollars that are going in to – for research are being used for overhead funding. That – those dollars should be around 15-25% tops to be used for overhead instead of NIH actual research and development. There has to be a reset. It has been abused. And what the president's saying is that that number can be anywhere from 15-25%, but it should be a max. If you start looking at –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– donors that donate to the university, they immediately put in 15-25% tops on their donation can be used for that. So if you want to start talking about actual cuts, what Oklahomans want is to make sure that we riddle –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– or we get rid of the waste and fraud inside the federal government. And that's –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Senator –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– exactly what the president's done. They've already identified billions, billions of dollars of waste and fraud for the taxpayers.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Senator, first of all, there hasn’t – they haven't provided proof of fraud. But talk to the people in Oklahoma who've lost their jobs, who say they are hurting, they don't know how they're going to pay their mortgage. They don't know how they're going to make ends meet. Talk to those people. What's your message to them? They say, "Enough of these cuts."
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Well, I – I’m not – I would tell you that the majority of the American people want to make sure that their taxpayers are being used correctly. I don't want anybody to lose their job. That's the last thing we want. But at the same time, anytime you're trying to secure this country, which a national security risk we have right now is our national debt, we have to make changes, and we have to make it quickly. Unfortunately, when we have bureaucrats and politicians that have wastefully spent the American taxpayer dollars, and we don't have to look any further than USAID to see the wasteful billions of dollars that were spent, cuts had to take place. And every business owner understands this. Every business owner understands that you have to get your house in order before you can advance. That's exactly what DOGE is doing. Think about this. Every successful –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– business owner out there and every successful business has hired consultants to come in and take an unbiased look and make changes because sometimes when you're so close to it, you can't see what the real changes need to take place. Elon Musk is the United States' consultant right now. He the – he is literally the – the – the best entrepreneur we've had in our lifetime, and he's doing it for free, and he's taking an unbiased look –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
– saying, "These programs make no sense. Let's save the taxpayer dollars and get our house in order."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very quickly before I let you go, the national debt is $36 trillion. DOGE is only dealing right now with the federal workers, which is only 8% of federal spending, a small fraction of the federal budget. So how do DOGE's layoffs actually deal with the debt problem?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
Take care of your pennies, and the dollars will take care of themselves. Every business owner knows that. Within only four short weeks, we've already identified over $55 billion of waste and fraud. We're only four weeks into a four-year administration. That is taking care of the pennies and going to get to the dollars. We will get our house back in order.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Senator, very quickly because I am almost out of time. President Trump again this week joked about running for a third term. Would you support changing the Constitution to allow Donald Trump to seek a third term in office?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
First of all, he joked. And so I think we need to take that as a joke, not being literal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Some of his allies say they are deadly serious, Senator. Would you support that?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN:
No. I'm not – I’m not changing the Constitution, first of all, unless – unless the American people chose to do that. I will say, just as what you said in the beginning: It was a joke, and people need to take it as a joke. The president is a very interesting guy that you can find extreme humor in when you sit down to visit with him. At the same time, he can be deadly serious. That's why I call him my friend.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Mullin, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Hope you'll come back again soon. Thank you. And when we come back, Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. Senator Booker, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
It's good to be here. Good to be here in person.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is great to have you here in person. Thank you so much. Let's start off big picture. We're one month into President Trump's second term. His approval rating stands at about 45%, 46%. More popular now than he was at this point in his first term. And as you well know, he was in striking distance in your blue state of New Jersey, about six points away from winning the state. Do you believe you have a responsibility to your constituents to try to find a way to work with President Trump?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, first of all, New Jersey is my main priority, do anything I can to help and support them. But what Donald Trump is doing right now, Republican or Democrat in New Jersey, is hurting our state. His last, first term he took away our state and local tax reduction, increased taxes basically on all of my state. And what you should be reminded of is that he didn't win the majority of the popular vote. He won the popular vote, but he didn't even get over 50%. And right now, he is historically the least popular president of my lifetime, except for in his first term. So he had a very narrow mandate which was to lower prices, which was to help people with the economy. And what we're seeing is inflation is up, the price of eggs is up, and New Jerseyans are still hurting.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will you work with him to lower prices? Is that an area where you--
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
This is--
KRISTEN WELKER:
--find some common ground?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, this is what a strong president does. They get elected especially without a mandate, without the popular vote. You come in and say, "I want to work with Democrats." What Reagan did, what Clinton did, "I want to work with the other side to accomplish big things." The way we do that is legislatively through the process. But he didn't do it the strong, president way. He started issuing these executive orders. None of them had to do with lowering prices. All of them had to do with petty personal stuff, attacks on people that attacked him, from pardoning the 9/11 – excuse me – the January 6th people who viciously beat police officers, all the way to renaming the Gulf of Mexico. This is not what people wanted him to do. And ultimately he's going to be paying for it. And that's why his approval rating is going down right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the firing of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, CQ Brown. You heard me play that sound from Congressman Clyburn. He said point blank he believes he was fired because of the color of his skin. Senator Mullin pushed back against that characterization forcefully. How do you see the firing of CQ Brown?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is someone who should give independent advice on the military and national security. It's something that on both sides of the aisle we've said that should be independent of politics. That's why their terms are set. But just like the FBI director, which again was a Republican-supported person, General Brown was supported overwhelmingly by Democrats and Republicans. Donald Trump has thrown that out the window and is sending a dangerous message to the military. "It's not about your independent expertise. It's not about your years of service. It's about your personal political loyalty to me." And that is a dangerous message to send to our military at a time when we really need independent credible advice being going to the president because we live in a difficult, complex world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do want to talk about the economy, as you're saying, one of the critical issues. The country is facing a $36 trillion debt as I was just discussing. The debt went up by about $7 trillion under President Trump during his first term, more than $4 trillion under President Biden. Should Democrats, Senator, have done more to address the debt when they were in power, when you had a chance to do that?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, I'm glad you said that. It's not just that it went up $7 trillion. In my lifetime, he is the greatest president for increasing the national debt. While people like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama closed the annual deficit, he, President Trump, created the biggest gulfs. He is a profligate spender. And he does it all to give tax cuts to the wealthiest. If you look at his biggest economic piece of legislation that he passed, it created a massive deficit in order to give tax cuts to the wealthiest of the wealthy in America and our corporations who are doing well and don't need that kind of tax cut. And now, I think the stunning thing to Americans, and you said it, that he's going after critical jobs from the FAA to our nuclear regulators. He's going after critical jobs to save pennies in order to give himself more room to give big tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans and the wealthiest corporations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let me move on now because I want to talk to you about some of the rhetoric that we're hearing in talking about President Trump's aggressive use of executive power. Some of your colleagues have been saying that America is, in a quote, "constitutional crisis." I want to play you some of that sound.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. ANGUS KING:
This is a constitutional crisis. It's the most serious assault on our Constitution in the history of this country.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, listen, I think this is the most serious constitutional crisis the country has faced, certainly since Watergate.
SEN. ANDY KIM
We are basically on the cusp of a constitutional crisis.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, as you know, Democrats just lost an election largely with the closing argument accusing Trump of being a threat to the democracy. Is that the most effective messaging right now?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I think the most effective messaging is talking about the crisis that's happening to Americans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So don’t – They shouldn't be talking about constitutional crisis?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
No, no. I'm saying we should talking about what's happening to Americans. I had one of the biggest hospital leaders in my state call me up and talk about the cancer research that's now in crisis, literally ruining years of research, literally having to take cancer treatments away from people, cutting-edge, breakthrough treatments. What's crazy is a crisis when you have planes falling from the sky and you're cutting FAA folks. It is a crisis when nuclear regulatories, who are keeping our safe, regulators, are being cut. I could go through this. I have farmers calling me up, who put out tens of thousands of dollars under the understanding and the deal that they would get certain resources from the federal government, now threatening to lose their farms. Everywhere in America, red states to blue states, we are seeing real crises. That Elon Musk who's a billionaire who never has to think about where his next meal is coming from, where his medical treatment and how that will be paid for. Americans are feeling a crisis right now. And they're feeling pain that to them was unimaginable in a president they put their trust in that would lower their prices and make their lives more easily, not do things that make us so much less safe. Look, all this talk about USAID. I have visited people on the frontline stopping infectious diseases from coming here. To have scientists in dangerous areas like Kampala suddenly not be able to get access to their cell phone, their emails, and be cut off by a president and Elon Musk who are in a ham-handed, incompetent way, cutting funding that makes no sense and ultimately won't make a difference on our deficit because the president wants to rack it up to give tax cuts to the wealthiest and create even bigger deficits in our country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about this broader divide though within the Democratic Party. You have some Democrats saying, "Let's sit back a little bit." You have other Democrats taking a more aggressive approach. We saw this divide in statements by House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries and Illinois Governor JB Pritzker. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
They control the House, the Senate and the presidency. It's their government. What leverage do we have?
GOV. JB PRITZKER:
My oath is to the constitution of our state and of our country. We don't have kings in America. And I don't intend to bend the knee to one.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Who has the right message, Senator?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I sit with 46 other Senate Democrats. And they are united in this fight working with state attorney generals, working with governors, and working with the greater American population to stop Donald Trump from violating the Constitution, violating separation of powers, violating civil service laws, and many of the other things we're doing. The reason why we are winning case after case in front of Republican judges and Democratic-appointed judges is because what Donald Trump is doing is illegal. It's a violation of our Constitution. And it has to be stopped. And I'm proud to see a movement growing that ultimately I believe is going to stop Donald Trump from doing these very destructive things that are hurting everyday Americans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very quickly, we're three weeks away from a potential government shutdown. Some of your fellow Democrats are saying they will support shutting down the government to protest President Trump's policies. Will you, very quickly?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I think it's outrageous that they control the House, the Senate, and the White House. They are already showing that they want to shut down the government. They're trying to shut down the Department of Education. They're trying to shut down USAID. They have the power. They won the election. They need to keep the government going. What I want to do –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you won't help keep it open?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
When governments shut down, people get hurt. The focus that I have every day is to defend and protect Americans. Their reckless, really truly incompetent way they're functioning government right now is hurting so many people. I'm going to do everything I can to stop them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Cory Booker, thank you so much.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So great to have you here. And when we come back, President Trump is praising Elon Musk and pushing him to be more aggressive with cuts to the federal government. But is it backfiring? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. Jonathan Martin, Politics Bureau Chief and Senior Political Columnist at Politico, NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Melanie Zanona, former Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson, and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. Thanks to all of you for being here. Jonathan, I have to start with you. We are one month into the Trump presidency. We have these new poll numbers. We have the pushback that we're seeing to the big cuts at these town halls –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– all across the country. What do you make of this first month?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, if the president had taken his mandate as cracking down on the border and trying to reduce the cost of goods, I think he'd be in a lot better shape right now. But like a lot of presidents who misread the results of the polls and their election, he's overreaching. And he's doing so in ways that are invariably going to prompt backlash. Look, the American people love the idea of paring back the federal government theoretically. But operationally, Kristen, it's a very different story. When you start talking about actual people and their actual jobs and their lives are at stake, you see the kind of clips that we've seen the last week at these town halls. People don't like it. They like the idea of it, not the actual application of it. That's an old axiom in American politics, and I think that's going to put Elon Musk on thin ice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. And, Mel, we should first of all say welcome to NBC.
JEH JOHNSON:
Here, here.
MELANIE ZANONA:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome to the panel. We're thrilled to have you. He is not waiting for Congress to give him the green light. He is slashing and burning these agencies with Elon Musk. There's been a little bit of speaking out on Capitol Hill but very little real pushback. What are you hearing from your sources on the hill?
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah. You're right. Republicans are certainly in the back seat here. They're letting Donald Trump and Elon Musk call the shots. But I will say that behind the scenes, we have started to see some cracks grow. I've been hearing from multiple Republicans, including in really safe, conservative seats, telling me privately behind the scenes they're very uncomfortable with the scope and speed of some of these cuts, particularly as they have hit home, impacted some of their own –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right.
MELANIE ZANONA:
– constituents. I think it was a lot easier when it was foreign aid on the chopping block for USAID, but now it's a different story. And I'm also hearing that they're frustrated that they have not received any guidance or communication from the White House or their own leadership about how they should be messaging on this. And they're the ones who are being confronted by angry constituents in these town halls, and they don't know what to say. They want to still be supportive of the DOGE mission, but they also want to stand up for their constituents. So this is creating some real headaches for Republicans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's a very difficult place to be. And, Jeh Johnson, let me turn to you on this because we've seen some stumbling blocks with the administration firing a whole bunch of people then saying, "Oh wait, we have to rehire –”
JEH JOHNSON:
Un-firing them. Right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– “some of those people that we fired." You've actually received some calls about the overnight firings this weekend. We should remind people, you ran not only the Department of Homeland Security, you were the General Counsel for the Department of Defense. What are you hearing?
JEH JOHNSON:
First of all, the chainsaw imagery is apt. The chainsaw is indiscriminate. If you were serious about going about reducing the size of government, you would do so in a methodical way. You'd work with OMB. You’d develop who's essential, who's not, which takes time. You'd work with Congress. You don't try to do it all in a month. So, that's number one. In terms of what's happening at the Pentagon right now, the people I speak to in the community are very, very upset because they believe that this is chilling being able to speak truth to power. And General Brown, 3,000 hours flight time in fighter jet, 130 hours combat mission. The CNO, Admiral Franchetti, was commander of the sixth fleet. She commanded two aircraft carrier groups. On paper, those two individuals who the president fired are far more qualified to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs than the one he wants to hire and put in that role. And this is sending a message to the entire community: "Shut up. Fall in line. Don't speak truth to power. Just wait out the time until you retire, or you could be fired with three hours' notice to get out of your government housing."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just stunning to hear that. And, Lanhee, of course this does come against the backdrop, as Mel and J. Mart were talking about, of these town halls where you're seeing passions bubble over. What do you make of this moment? Will it resonate to the White House, or no?
LANHEE CHEN:
Look, I think we have to question who some of these folks are in these town halls, right? Some of the reporting has said that these are activists who never liked Donald Trump, who were never in favor of Donald Trump. So, I mean, let's see how this all plays out. Every president wants to expand the scope of executive action, right? George W. Bush after 9/11 tried to expand the surveillance state. Barack Obama tried to use executive action to legalize a number of undocumented immigrants. Every president wants to push the boundaries. When it comes to reducing the scope and size of government, what we've tried is an incremental approach. That hasn't worked. So this president's saying, "Let's go further. Let's cut deeper." And it is going to result in people saying, "Is this the right thing to do?" But, fundamentally, what President Trump's trying to do is to move the needle in a non-incremental way, and that is going to result in people asking questions. That's where we're at. But, in my view, the response we're seeing from the American people, it's gotta play out over some period of time –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
But when we you have Marco Rubio –
LANHEE CHEN:
– because federal workers are not a particularly sympathetic group for most Americans.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right. But the challenge is, they're not theoretically in DC. When they are in Tulsa or Oklahoma City or Norman, like they were for Senator Markwayne Mullin, it's a very different story. The most interesting thing I thought he said during the interview was, "I don't want to see folks losing their jobs." Well, that's precisely what's going to happen if you go through with these sort of –
JEH JOHNSON:
Exactly –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– chainsaw-style cuts of federal employees. People don't like it when it starts getting them – hitting them when they have skin in the game. Which is I think why it's been so hard over the years, Lanhee, to actually make any real change in the government, because people don't want to see profound change when it affects them.
JEH JOHNSON:
TSA at airports, for example.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and the impact of cutting. I mean, you know what it's like to run an agency –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yeah. You tried, right –
JEH JOHNSON:
Right, right.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– How’d that go?
JEH JOHNSON:
Incidentally, it wasn't just President Obama, it was me too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mel, you know, Troy Balderson of Ohio makes the point, "Hey, this is Congress' job." And yet, it doesn't seem like anyone in Congress is standing up to say, "We're the ones who should have oversight because, technically speaking, we get to decide what gets cut."
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah. Even talking to Republican appropriators who sit on these key committees that are in charge of spending have said they're okay with Elon Musk and Donald Trump usurping some of their own power and their own purpose. I do think this is going to come to head in the weeks and months ahead, particularly if they're debating government funding. This is going to be a huge question because Democrats want a commitment that, if they are going to agree to fund the government, that Trump and Elon Musk are not going to just ignore it. And right now, Republicans have refused to give them that commitment so we could be in for a real showdown.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– And the Republicans can't criticize Trump. But I'll tell you what, I think Elon's going to start catching some of that fire from them.
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we will watch it closely. Guys, stand by, we have a lot more to discuss. We do want to note that Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer had committed to appear on the broadcast this morning. Her staff called late Friday to cancel her appearance citing changes to her schedule. We do hope to have her back soon. When we come back, President Trump is targeting diversity initiatives in the federal government. We look back on how they were once embraced in our Meet the Press Minute which is next. Stay with us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Trump has stepped up his pushback against programs promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion. But this effort began well before his return to office a month ago. In 2023, his Supreme Court appointees helped form the conservative majority that struck down affirmative action in college admissions. But back in 1978, the Supreme Court upheld the policy. Civil Rights Activist Eleanor Holmes Norton joined this broadcast a month later.
[BEGIN TAPE]
BILL MONROE:
How are we going to know when the period is over when we need affirmative action? What will be the criteria?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON:
We'll know. We'll know because black unemployment won't be twice white unemployment. We'll know because there will be more than 2% black doctors and black lawyers. We'll know because the ghettos won't stand out in poverty while prosperity appears to abound elsewhere. I am one of those who believe that, in a single generation, we can in fact get rid of the consequences of 200 years of racial discrimination. But I believe that can happen only if we are willing to pursue very strong remedies now. The lighter the remedy, the more we guarantee that the period of rectification will be drawn out.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, one month into President Trump's second term, are Democrats holding back in their fight? More with the panel next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is still here. Secretary Johnson, let's start with you on part of what I was discussing with Senator Booker which is this idea that some Democrats are really leaning into the idea that they are arguing this is a constitutional crisis already. What do you make of that? Senator Booker didn't necessarily lean into that. He said, "Let's talk about issues like the economy." What's your take?
JEH JOHNSON:
The reality is that voters, most voters, care about the price of eggs, price of gas, wait times at airports, TSA. I worry that the phrase "constitutional crisis" is becoming an overused phrase. You know, crying wolf too often. I believe that, when it comes to the matter of the Constitution, that is something that rises above politics. When we - when a president says, "I am not going to abide by a court order," that is a true constitutional crisis because then the system of checks and balances collapses. I know many Republicans, I know many Heritage Foundation Republicans who would agree that that is a constitutional crisis. That transcends politics. And so we need to keep talking about it in those terms, in my view.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Lanhee, what - what is your take? And what are you hearing? When you talk to people, what has the reaction been inside Republican circles to this type of talk? And, quite frankly, as President Trump is facing a number of legal challenges --
LANHEE CHEN:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
-- all across the country.
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, look, I - I agree completely. The notion that we have a constitutional crisis is belied by the fact that you have the courts who are still doing the work that they do. You have Congress, and ultimately the voters are going to cast judgment in the midterm elections in, you know, less than two years. So what I'm hearing from Republicans is, "Let's hope Democrats continue to use this argument," as opposed to the one that you and Senator Booker have been using, around the economy. That ultimately is going to be the more effective argument. The fact that the Democrats are leaning into this, I think Republicans are like, "Great. Keep it up. Continue that," because that's the shortest way to ensuring you lose in the midterm elections --
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yeah --
LANHEE CHEN:
-- in '26.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
-- Yeah, Lanhee's right. It's such a Washington argument. You know, before the commercial, you showed the - the picture, Kristen, of the senator standing in front of the FBI with a Kash Patel logo. That is cutting no ice with any voters --
JEH JOHNSON:
No.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
-- all right? They're not following who's the head of a federal agency, one even as important as the FBI. It's not material to their lives. What's material to their lives? Yes, the cost of goods at the grocery store or in the gas station and, yes, they or their families losing their job or a contract because of these indiscriminate cuts in the federal government. That's where this thing matters, and I think that's where Democrats have got to go. They cannot get suckered into talking about norms for the umpteenth time.
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah, but the leadership in Democrat - Democratic circles right now, they are under so much pressure from their base --
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Sure.
MELANIE ZANONA:
- right now to go up against Donald Trump. And that -
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Somehow, some way, yes.
MELANIE ZANONA:
Some - some way, right? Maybe it's not calling it a constitutional--
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right. Yes. The pressure, yes.
MELANIE ZANONA:
-- crisis but there are - there are other pressure points --
JEH JOHNSON:
Who - who’s the base?
MELANIE ZANONA:
And who is the base is the other question?
JEH JOHNSON:
Who's the base?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and, Secretary Johnson, President Trump seems to enjoy stirring the pot. He posted this week, "He who saves his country does not violate any law," clearly trying to --
JEH JOHNSON:
Bait them, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
-- have more of that, to bait the argument.
JEH JOHNSON:
That's just wrong. That - That - That's wrong. If a court of law tells you, "You have violated the law. You have violated the Constitution," the other political branches of government have to abide by that --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
JEH JOHNSON:
-- otherwise the system collapses.
KRISTEN WELKER:
There was a really striking moment this week with President Trump. He was having lunch with the governors who were here for the Governors' Association meeting. This was with Maine Governor Janet Mills, related to state leaders on compliance with his executive orders. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES.DONALD TRUMP:
Is the Maine here, the Governor of Maine?
GOV. JANET MILLS:
I'm here.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Are you not going to comply with it?
GOV. JANET MILLS:
I'm complying with state and federal laws.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it so - so you better comply because otherwise you're not getting any federal funding.
GOV. JANET MILLS:
See you in court.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Good, I'll see you in court. I look forward to that. That should be a real easy one. And enjoy your life after, governor, because I don't think you'll be in elected politics.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
What an unbelievable moment, JMart.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The - the other governors sitting there with eyes wide open. And it kind of encapsulates the debate within the Democratic Party that I was discussing with Senator Booker: Do you take the gloves off? Do you try to work with Trump? Do you sit back? What did you make of that moment?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, the fact that those governors are there in the first place tells you that those Democratic governors recognize they've got to work with him to some degree. But here's the challenge: You agree to work with him to some degree, you have a dispute, happens to be in public, he immediately threatens to stop all funding to your state and then lobs a political threat to you in the next breath. Therein lies the challenge. You have to work with him because you need - your - your state needs federal dollars. If you - if you don't work with him, he's going to threaten to cut you off.
LANHEE CHEN:
So there's the policy of it, which I think you're right, then there's the political question which, for Democrats fundamentally I think they just still haven't figured out quite how to navigate this yet. And so --
JEH JOHNSON:
No question.
LANHEE CHEN:
--there might be - there might be different camps. And it would have been interesting, by the way, to have heard Governor Whitmer come on to justify the way in which she's been --
JEH JOHNSON:
Yeah..
LANHEE CHEN:
-- dealing, or hasn't been dealing, with the president, for example. But the Democrats can't figure out the right way forward. And as a result, right now, you've got all sorts of different approaches. I don't think Governor Mills' approach, by the way, is the one that Democrats want to take in the long run. Because clearly, in my mind, we had an election of this and they lost on - on that referendum.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What about that point?
JEH JOHNSON:
Well, it's full employment for lawyers over the next several years.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
What really matters.
JEH JOHNSON:
Lawyers, the legal profession's going to be very busy. Ultimately, if you're an elected governor, you have to do and say what is in the best interest of your own state. And some governors will choose one path, other governors will choose a more confrontational path.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mel, we have about 30 seconds left. What are you hearing from Democrats about this debate?
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah - they haven't figured it out yet, right? This is the debate that is going on right now. I think the leadership is much more cautious than what we saw from the governor, for example. But this is something that is going to play out in the weeks and months ahead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys. Great conversation. Thank you so much for being here. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.