KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: uphill battle.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
I’m not giving up this fight.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Nikki Haley vows to fight on after losing the GOP primary in her home state.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
I know 40% is not 50%, but I also know 40% is not some tiny group.
KRISTEN WELKER:
While Donald Trump says he can't wait for the general election to start.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I just wish we could do it quicker. Nine months is a long time
KRISTEN WELKER:
How long will Haley stay in the race? I’ll talk to Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida, who is strongly backing Trump. Plus: fertility fight. Alabama’s Supreme Court rules that frozen embryos created through IVF are considered children, leading fertility clinics in the state to pause procedures.
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
The access to reproductive healthcare through IVF is being taken from countless individuals and families.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
Embryos to me are babies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What will be the legal and political impact? I’ll talk to Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom of California. And: Ukraine's future. The war in Ukraine reaches the two-year mark.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We can’t walk away now, that’s what Putin is betting on.
SEN. JD VANCE:
If the thing you care most about is a conflict 6,000 miles away, you should not be a leader of this country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What will happen if the U.S. pulls back support? I’ll speak with National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC Chief Political Analyst Chuck Todd, NBC News Washington Correspondent Yamiche Alcindor, former Obama White House Senior Advisor Stephanie Cutter and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press, with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Former President Donald Trump is solidifying his grip on the Republican nomination after beating Nikki Haley in the Midwest, the Northeast, the West and now the South. Trump delivering a crushing blow to Haley in her home state on Saturday, trouncing her by 20 points, with nearly 60 percent of the vote. The former president dominating nearly every key group in the South Carolina Republican primary electorate, according to NBC News exit poll results. Trump is now setting his sights squarely on the general election.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
In certain countries, you're allowed to call your election date. If I had the right to do it, I'd do it tomorrow. I'd say we're having an election tomorrow.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
More than 60 percent of South Carolina Republican primary voters said in exit polls they would consider Trump fit to be president even if he was convicted of a crime. But Nikki Haley defiant, vowing to stay in the race through Super Tuesday but not saying what will happen after that
[START TAPE]
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
I'm an accountant. I know 40% is not 50%, but I also know 40% is not some tiny group. In the next 10 days, another 21 states and territories will speak. They have the right to a real choice, not a Soviet-style election with only one candidate.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
As former President Trump looks to a likely general election rematch with President Biden, a growing chorus of his aides and allies tell NBC News they want him to fixate less on personal grievances and instead focus on hitting President Joe Biden and unifying the Republican party. The challenges of that were on display on Friday night. During a speech at the Black Conservative Federation's annual gala in South Carolina, Trump griped about his legal troubles, including four indictments, complaining of "discrimination."
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I got indicted a second time and a third time and a fourth time. And a lot of people said that that's why the black people like, because they have been hurt so badly and discriminated against. And they actually viewed me as I'm being discriminated against.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
We'll get to all of it later this hour, but we begin with the two-year anniversary of the war in Ukraine. On Saturday, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy promised his country would win the war, despite a series of setbacks, saying, "We are 730 days closer to victory." Joining me now is National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. Jake, welcome back to Meet the Press.
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, let's start right there in Ukraine. Ukrainian fighters have been dying. They've been running out of ammunition. Is this war in Ukraine a stalemate, Jake, or does Russia now have the upper hand?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, first, Kristen, let's take a step back. We just hit the two-year anniversary since this brutal invasion began. And when it began, most people on your show predicted that it'd be over in a week or two. Most people in the U.S. government predicted it would be over in a week or two. Two years later, the capital of Ukraine, Kyiv, stands. The country stands proud and free, and resisting Russian aggression. So, we need to understand that, actually, Ukraine has, in many ways, succeeded in thwarting the fundamental objective of Vladimir Putin, which was to subjugate the country of Ukraine. Now, Ukraine has also taken back roughly half the territory that Russia occupied in the early months of the war. We are looking at some setbacks, including in recent days, because Ukraine didn't have enough ammunition to defend the town of Avdiivka in the east. But at the end of the day, Ukraine still has the capacity – if we provide them the tools and resources they need – to be able to prevail in this war. And it is up to us, the United States, and our allies and partners, to deliver on our commitment. And that's why it's so important that Congress act.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And we are going to talk about that fight over the aid, in just a moment. But I want to ask you, big picture: does the United States still think that Ukraine can win this war, militarily?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Of course, Ukraine can win. Of course, Ukraine has already succeeded, militarily, in one of the most profound objectives it had, which was to keep the country from falling into Russian hands. It has already done that. And Ukraine can go further in retaking territory that Russia has occupied, ensuring Russia fails and ensuring Ukraine prevails. But it can only do so, if it has the tools that it needs. And that is why the United States needs to deliver the aid package that passed on a massive bipartisan vote in the Senate. The House needs to step up and pass that bill.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, with aid stalled in the House, I had an opportunity to speak to the UK Foreign Secretary, David Cameron. And I asked him what he thinks President Biden can do on his own. Take a look at that answer.
[START TAPE]
DAVID CAMERON:
Well, I think what Britain has shown – I'm not saying we get everything right, we make mistakes. But right at the start of this conflict, we took the view, we were going to back Ukraine and back Zelenskyy as much as we could. So we gave them the anti-tank weapons. We gave them the tanks. We gave them the long-range artillery. And on every occasion, there were people saying, including some of the United States saying, look, "This is in danger of escalating." And I don't think it was in danger of escalating the conflict. What we were doing was giving Ukraine the weaponry they need to fight off the Russians. And I think that is non-escalatory. I think that's perfectly fair to back a country in its self-defense. And I think that the more that the American administration can see that that works, that others have done it – America is doing it now with the long-range artillery, I would urge the Pentagon and the president to, you know, err on the side of doing more.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, is President Biden out of options or is there more he can do on his own?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, it comes down to basic arithmetic. We need money to be able to provide the weapons to Ukraine. We don't have the money. Only Congress can provide the money. So that's the reality. And that's why the urgency of, excuse me, Congress passing this bill is so profound. And it's why this ultimately comes down to a simple decision from one man, Speaker Johnson. If there were an up or down vote in the House, this would pass on a bipartisan basis. So Speaker Johnson needs to decide, will he allow that vote to go forward? If he does, Ukraine will get what it needs. If he doesn't, then the United States will not have the resources necessary to give Ukraine the kinds of tools and capacities that it needs. That's what this comes down to. And that is the moment that we are at right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, what do you say to Speaker Johnson? What do you say to House Republicans who say they don't think more taxpayer dollars should be spent on the war in Ukraine, until they have a clear understanding of the strategy in what victory looks like there?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
So, I've personally gone up and briefed the Speaker and other members. Secretary Austin, Secretary Blinken, our intelligence community have all gone up. We've laid out, in writing, how we look at the strategy for Ukraine to prevail and for Russia to fail in this. We've gotten good feedback from the House on that. I don't think the question, at this point, is about the strategy. And I don't think the question is about whether there is an overwhelming bipartisan vote in the House waiting to happen. The question now is about politics: Will Speaker Johnson bust through the politics in his caucus to put this vote on the floor? If he does, the resources will flow. And we have answered and engaged on the questions relative to the strategy. We feel that we are in a good place on that. Now, it comes down to a simple right or left turn, you know? One way is towards a vote that delivers Ukraine what it needs. The other way is towards an outcome that Vladimir Putin would love to see, which is the United States not stepping up to its responsibilities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about Russia as it relates to our next election. As you know, the intelligence community has said that in 2016 and 2020, Russia interfered in the United States presidential elections. Are there concerns, or is there even evidence, that Russia is planning to interfere in the 2024 election, Jake?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
I can't speak to evidence today, but I can tell you, of course, there are concerns. There is a history here in presidential elections by the Russian Federation, by its intelligence services. And there's plenty of reason to be concerned. And this is not about politics. This is about national security. It is about a foreign country, a foreign adversary seeking to manipulate the politics and democracy of the United States of America. We are going to be vigilant about that. And we will engage the Congress on a bipartisan basis, because this should be above and beyond politics.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, yesterday, announced that he will convene a cabinet meeting at the beginning of this week to approve the operational plans for action in Rafah, including the evacuation, he says, of the civilian population there. Has the president seen this plan? Has he been briefed on it?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
He has not. And beyond that, Kristen, we have been very clear about our view here. We're talking about more than a million people who have been pushed into this small space in Gaza because of military operations elsewhere. It's also the area where all of the humanitarian assistance comes into Gaza to serve all of Gaza. And so we've been clear that we do not believe that a major military operation should proceed in Rafah, unless there is a clear and executable plan to protect those civilians, to get them to safety, and to feed, clothe and house them. And we have not seen a plan like that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, is the president willing to withhold weapon sales until he does see the plan? What's he willing to do, in terms of leverage here?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
So, I'm not going to get into hypotheticals because, at this time, what we are doing is telling our Israeli counterparts, privately, just as we are saying publicly, that we believe that this operation should not go forward until or unless we see that. We haven't seen it, but we're waiting to hear from the Israelis on that front.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, thank you very much for being here today. We really appreciate it. And still ahead, we dive into the 2024 race with Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom of California. But when we come back, will Donald Trump change his strategy as he pivots to the general election? Republican Congressman Byron Donalds joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. As former President Donald Trump solidifies his hold on the Republican nomination, NBC News has learned that Trump allies are encouraging him to pivot to a general election message. Joining me now is a top Trump surrogate who has also been mentioned as a potential running mate, including on Friday night, Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida. Congressman Donalds, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
It's good to be back with you. Thanks for having me on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it is great to have you, Congressman. And on Friday you introduced Donald Trump at a group of Black conservatives. He made a number of headline-making comments, including this one, take a look.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I got indicted a second time, and a third time and a fourth time. And a lot of people said that that's why the Black people like me, because they have been hurt so badly and discriminated against. And they actually viewed me as I'm being discriminated against.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, it sounds like Donald Trump was implying that he can win Black voters because they get indicted all the time, too. Is that what he was saying?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, I think it’s in part of – it's part of it, Kristen. Look, it was a great night Friday night in Columbia, South Carolina. The president was really just enjoying himself. It was a great celebration for Black conservatives across our country. But let's be very clear, our economy is a mess. Our border is completely unsecured. These things are causes of major concerns for Black voters like it is for every voter in our country. But then when you layer on the fact that, yes, this is political persecution from the Department of Justice and from radical DAs throughout our country, this is something similar that Black people had to deal with – with the justice system themselves. And so their look – their look of it is real simple: "Well, dang, if the government's going after him with foolishness, he can't be that bad." Especially considering the fact that Joe Biden is terrible at his job.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, let's just be clear. All four indictments against former President Trump were brought by grand juries. There is no evidence that the indictments are political in nature. But let me stick to the question here. Let me get you to respond to Biden campaign co-chair and former Congressman Cedric Richmond, who said this about his comments: "Donald Trump claiming that Black Americans will support him because of his criminal charges is insulting. It's moronic. And it's just plain racist." How do you respond to that charge, that it's just plain racist?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
What I would say is that Cedric is trying to play politics and use racial politics even now as we get into the general election. That's one. Number two, like I said at the top, the number one reason why minority voters in our country want to support Donald Trump is because he did the job of president. He did a great job as president. Our country was secure. The economy was great. These are all things that Donald Trump talked about Friday night. He also did talk about the indictments. What Americans don't want to see, especially Black Americans and anybody else, they don't want to see a politicized Justice Department. They don't want to see a two-tier system of justice. They want justice to be followed. They want Lady Justice to be blind. That's what the American people want. That's what Black voters wants. That's what everybody wants.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Again, there's no evidence that the indictments against him are politicized. But sticking to this question, were you offended at all by his comments, congressman?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
No, I wasn't. Because I understood what the president was talking about. And like I said now for the third time, he talked about all the reasons why minority voters want to support him. And Kristen, let me push back a little bit. You have to acknowledge the fact that now that the Robert Hur report has come out about Joe Biden's misuse of classified information, which is a violation of the Espionage Act, he had no rights to any of those documents when he was a senator
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
– or vice president, yet there are no charges against – against vice – President Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Congressman –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
While President Trump is under prosecution. Come on now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hold on, I have to –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
You know that doesn't make any sense at all.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– hit the pause button for one minute, congressman, because the Hur report was very clear –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– that there was not enough evidence to bring charges against President Biden. And that ultimately there was not enough.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Kristen, I have to push back on you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That is what the Hur report said.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That is not –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, that is exactly what the Hur report said.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
No, no, no, no.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes it is. It said that there wasn't enough –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
The Espionage Act is clear –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– there wasn't enough evidence to bring charges.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
– you cannot possess those documents as a senator or vice president. You have no rights to those documents as a senator or a vice president. They must remain in a secure facility. Joe Biden took them from a SCIF. That's a violation of the Espionage Act, period.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. All right, bottom line, though, Hur himself said there wasn't enough evidence to bring charges. Let's move on to this next topic, though. I want to talk about the Alabama IVF ruling. This week you said that you agreed with the State Supreme Court's decision that embryos are children. I just want to put a fine point on this. Do you support IVF as it is practiced in the United States, which involves the production of embryos that are sometimes destroyed or even donated if they're unused?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, first, I do support IVF because I have several friends who have gone through that procedure. It has made their – their families whole. It has allowed them to have children. Their children are beautiful. They're wonderful. I totally support the procedure. Number two, when the – when the MSNBC reporter asked me that question, I was in the middle of a hallway. I heard the tail end of it. I didn't hear about the Alabama ruling. It was about do I support that embryos are – should be protected as life. Look, embryos are important to the production of life. We all come from embryos. That's what I said because I heard half her question. But do I support the IVF procedure? 100% I do. It should be made available. And I believe, as President Trump has also said, we really want the Alabama legislature to make sure that that procedure is protected for families who do struggle with having children. That helps them actually create great families, which is what our country desperately needs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So just to be very clear, though, if you believe that embryos are children, do you think they should be treated as people with all the same legal rights as people?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, I think now you're getting into a personhood argument. And this is where a lot of the details in legislation, not just court rulings, are important. I believe that this is something that the legislatures have to make sure they weigh and walk themselves through. The IVF procedure is very important to a lot of couples in our country. It should be protected. I agree with President Trump on that. But when we get into these conversations, it's important to delineate from what just one judge might say versus what a legislature and a governor will decide when they go through the legislative process.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you raise the point that President Trump is calling for lawmakers in Alabama to take action. There is also federal legislation that is being proposed. Will you support that – that would protect IVF services at the federal level?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Like any type of bill that gets drafted on Capitol Hill, I want to see the devil in the details. But yes, I could – I feel I could broadly support that. Because, like I said, IVF is something that is so critical to a lot of couples. It helps them breed great families. Our country needs that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, let me ask you now about Ukraine and the aid that is pending on Capitol Hill. At a town hall in January of 2022, you said that America needed to be engaged in Ukraine because, quote, "If you essentially allow the bully to bully, you're going to be drawn into a broader conflict you do not want to be a part of." Today you oppose additional aid to Ukraine. What changed, congressman?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
My opposition has been very simple: Joe Biden needs to secure our country. The first job of the federal government is to secure the nation, secure our borders. He has failed in that. We are going to have 10 million migrants come into our country at the end of his first term just because he wants to have an open-border strategy. That doesn't help our country. And so many citizens are saying, "Why are we sending billions of dollars to protect Ukraine while our country remains open?" So my message has been clear. I agree with the Speaker. You want to talk Ukraine funding? Let's talk about it. But you've got to secure America first.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But congressman, you had the opportunity to take significant actions to secure the border. The Senate came up with a deal that some veteran senators was the best deal they'd seen to secure the border. It didn't even include demands by Democrats for a path to citizenship, for example. The Border Patrol Union even endorsed it. How can you make that argument when you oppose that, and when Republicans oppose that in the House?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Oh, it's very easy because it was a terrible deal. That bill would have codified all the actions of Joe Biden when he became president. There would've been no stop to the flow of migrants going into Detroit, Chicago, Denver, New York, et cetera. It wouldn't have fixed anything, Kristen. It was a terrible deal. And by the way, it didn't even pass the Senate. So if it doesn't pass the chamber of Congress, it is no deal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But congressman, the Border Patrol Unit that endorsed former President Trump also endorsed this plan. And again, so did a lot of your Republican colleagues on the Senate side who said, "This is as good as it's going to get." So can you really say you did everything and that you have done everything possible for the border when you've opposed that deal?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
In the House we passed H.R.2. It is the most robust border security package ever to pass a chamber of Congress. And I stress, Kristen, H.R.2 has passed the House. The Senate deal did not pass the Senate. Chuck Schumer in the Senate won't even take it up for debate. He ignores it. That's on Chuck Schumer. But at the core of this entire question, the number one job is to secure the country. Joe Biden doesn't even need legislation to secure the country. He could do that right now. He can undo all of his executive orders that he put into place when he became president of the United States. That's what created the crisis that we have today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, as you know, executive orders often get tied up in the courts. That's what happened under former President Trump. But let me ask you big picture, because the government is careening toward another potential shutdown in just days. Are you willing to shut down the government over border security?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
And I believe Joe Biden is willing to shut down it over border security.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But what are you willing to do?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
And like I said at CPAC a couple days ago.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But congressman, what are you willing to do?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Hold on, Kristen, let me be clear. I'm willing to fund the government as long as our border is secure. The first job of the government is to secure the border. Any business that provides a service, if they don't give you the service, do you give them money? The answer is no. Kristen, you don't even do that. So we have to be honest with the American people. The government has a responsibility. Our cities are overrun. Our schools are overrun. Our shelters are overrun. And Joe Biden allows the disaster to continue. Kristen, let me add this wrinkle. There are young women who are sold into sex slavery by the drug cartels every single day. Joe Biden allows it to occur. That is un-American. It is not humane. Our border must be secured, period.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, just yes or no, and of course the Biden administration's working on executive actions as we speak, but just yes or no, would you vote to shut down the government if you did not see a border security plan in the package? Just yes or no.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I will not be voting for any funding if the border is not secured.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Anything I vote for has to secure our border. And the president should agree to that. That's common sense for a nation like America.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Congressman Donalds, thank you so much for your time today and your perspective. We really appreciate it. And when we come back, Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom of California and his thoughts on the 2024 race. Stay with us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The latest battle over abortion in the wake of Roe v. Wade is happening in Alabama, where, as we noted earlier, the State Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are legally children, and that people can be held liable for destroying them, setting off a scramble with implications for IVF and reproductive rights. On Saturday, I sat down with California Governor Gavin Newsom. His PAC is going up this week with a provocative new ad in Tennessee, where a bill has been proposed that would punish adults assisting minors seeking out of state abortions.
[START TAPE]
CAMPAIGN AD:
Help. Trump Republicans want to criminalize young women who travel to receive the reproductive care they need. Don't let them hold Tennessee women hostage.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
I began by asking Newsom what President Biden should do to respond to the Alabama ruling.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
He's speaking with clarity, moral clarity, forcefully. The vice president's speaking with moral clarity forcefully all across this country. We've defined the lines of this debate. We've been on the offense, not on the defense. The Republican Party is on the defense on this issue. You saw that with the flip flops of Haley. You see that in terms of Trump, though he's still trying to figure out exactly his position because he's out there celebrating the fact he created these conditions in the first place. But here's the point I want to make, and that's what this ad's about. The conditions are much more pernicious than they even appear. These guys are not just restricting the rights, self-determination to bear a child for a young child – young woman. But they're also determining their fate as it relates to their future in life by saying they can't even travel. These travel restrictions modeled after a version that passed in Idaho is now being proposed in Tennessee, in Oklahoma, in Mississippi. The AG himself of Alabama wants to criminalize travel, not just for children but for adults seeking reproductive care. That's how serious this moment is. And we need to be even more aggressive, I would argue. And that's what this ad represents.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Given the seriousness of this moment that you have just laid out, going back to the question, is there a unilateral, an executive action that you think President Biden should be taking to deal with the IVF piece of this? And then, as you say, the abortion travel ban piece of this?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I have – there's no daylight in their efforts and the work they're doing. And they are investigating exactly where their position can land in terms of the law itself. But the end of the day, this is a serious threat. Not just what's happening in Alabama, regardless of what Trump tweets out, saying the legislature in Alabama should do about – something about this. I worry about the United States Supreme Court that, again, set the tone and tenor for the debate we're having today. And again, it's not just a war on travel. It's not just a war on reproductive health care. It's also a war on women more broadly defined, including, as we know, contraceptives.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You talk about the Republican position on this. NBC News has confirmed that the GOP front-runner, Donald Trump, has told people privately that he is considering supporting a 16-week federal ban that would include exceptions.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have been clear, and here again today your support for abortion rights –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Generous of them to include exceptions. What a kind soul. And 16 weeks, it's because it's an even number?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
This is – these people aren't serious. So he supports – this is what he said. He supports a national ban. And if you're Lindsey Graham and others, they're going to bring that down well below 16. He will sign a national ban. You want to understand the contours of this debate that we will be having over the next nine months, ironically nine months, between now and November and the consequences of Democratic Party not succeeding in Biden's re-election? Just consider the fact that he said that part out loud.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We know that there are reports that former President Obama warned President Biden not to underestimate Trump.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Never.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you believe that Democrats are underestimating Trump –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– in this moment, his strength –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– potentially in the general election?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Well, I think he's weakness masquerading as strength. I – I think he's more unhinged. He's more – he’s less interesting than he was even a few years ago. I mean, you've heard his comments just this week. More just overt racist comments that he's made. It’s just extraordinary how quickly he is unraveling in real time, including just on basic policy issues like repealing Obamacare, which is overwhelmingly supported. The highest ACA enrollment that we've seen in decades, or rather in years and years, just the last few weeks. So the reality, at the end of the day, he's unhinged. He's a much weaker cannon than he was a few years ago. Democrats are stronger. We're winning – ‘18, ‘20, ‘22, ‘23. You saw it in New York three. We continue to win. We continue to outperform. And Donald Trump is a big part of that. And he's going to be the nominee of the Republican Party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And – and yet, Governor, there are some pretty stark numbers that you're facing. 76% of voters say they have real concerns about President Biden's ability to serve a second term. Do you think it's responsible for Democrats to put him at the top of the ticket, given those concerns?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Responsible? I revere his record. I mean it’s – what he's done in three years has been a masterclass. Close to 15 million jobs. That's eight times more than the last three Republican presidents combined. The economy is booming. Inflation is cooling. It's .6% more than it was in the summer of 2020. It's just 3.1%. And wait a second, we have American manufacturing coming back home all because of Biden's wisdom, because of his temperance, his capacity to lead in a bipartisan manner, which is an under-represented point. And so I have great confidence moving forward. So the answer is “absolutely all in” in terms of the next four years with Joe Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
These voters, though, are not complaining about his record. They're talking about concerns about his ability to beat Trump, who you have called a – a lightning, a –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I'm not worried about that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– threat, essentially to the democracy. But in private we've heard a lot of – well we’ve heard a lot of his allies say publicly, “In private, he is strong. He's in command. He's forceful.”
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Does he need to do more to show voters that?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I think he's doing everything he needs to do. I mean, he's got an extraordinary record. He's doing everything he needs to do on Ukraine at the moment. He's doing everything he needs to do to reconcile and wrestle some common sense as it relates to a bipartisan approach to address the issue of the border where the Republicans couldn't take yes for an answer because they don't want to make that a political issue. He is leading. And so no, from my humble perspective, not only the last three years have been extraordinary, I've been out with, as you know, on the campaign trail. I was just out in California. I've seen him up close. I've seen him from afar. But here's my point: it's because of his age that he's been so successful. It's because of the wisdom and the character that's developed over years that we have the CHIPS and Science Act, the infrastructure bill, and the PACT Act, and the Safer Communities Act. And because we've seen these bipartisan accomplishments because of his capacity of understanding, because of his leadership. So the opportunity to express that for four more years, what a gift it is for the American people. And as a Democrat, what a gift it is for me to make the case for the leader of our party, Joe Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about you, Governor. Days after that special counsel report came out questioning the president's age and his memory, the Washington Post reported that anxious Democrats reached out to top Biden donors to ask, quote, "When is Gavin getting in?” or “How about Whitmer or Shapiro?" The buzz has not stopped. I know you've been asked this before, but do you still rule out a run in 2024?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I mean you've got to be kidding. I am – I am here celebrating the extraordinary accomplishments of the Biden-Harris administration, making the case that we need to make to lift up the issues, lift up the record, drive contrast with the Republican nominee to beat Donald Trump –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have you gotten any calls?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
– so that we can win for four more years.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have you gotten any calls, Governor –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
C’mon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– encouraging you to run?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
It's all idle chatter. It’s all irrelevant – you know what? That's a sideshow. I think what Democrats need to do is worry less, do more, continue to over-perform as we have, continue to win, make the case. Don't be ashamed of 4.1% GDP over the last two quarters. Don't be ashamed about the alliance management of the Biden-Harris administration. Don't be timid about making the case for the record of this administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you're ruling it out 100%?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
100%. It's not even an interesting conversation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
And by the way, I think it's a damning conversation, frankly, the other side wants us to have. And trust me, I know the mishegoss coming from the other side. I'm deeply mindful of the anger machine and all the entertainment industry out there on Fox and elsewhere. They love ginning this stuff up. At the end of the day, not only has this train left the station, but we are – we get to enjoy a record of accomplishments as we make the case in a reelection, the likes of which we couldn't even have dreamt of even as a Democrat the last century.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Trump says he’s ready to debate Biden right now. Should President Biden debate Trump?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Of course he's going to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But should President Biden debate Trump in the general?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Biden beat Trump in the prior debates. I look forward –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. So that's a yes?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I mean this is a guy – by the way this is pure –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So that's a yes?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
100%. Pure projection on a guy who refused to debate in his own primary. Back to my point: weakness masquerading as strength.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about immigration very quickly. President Biden is reportedly considering taking executive action –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– that would restrict migrants from seeking asylum. Would you support that type of –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Well, you have to take a look –
KRISTEN WELKER:
–executive action from one who governs a border state?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
You have to take a look at what the executive action is. It's – it’s broad strokes. So before I sign off on any executive action, I'd like to know exactly what it is. But here's what I will say, two things: the asylum system is broken.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you’re open to it?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Everybody knows that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're open to supporting him on this?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
The asylum system is broken. We know its gamed, the credible fear is – is – is manipulated. I don't think that, we know that as Democrats. I have the largest land port in the western hemisphere in the state of California. I'm going to be educated on this. I've brought the National Guard down to the border many years ago, increased their presence recently. And I applaud the president being willing to advance a bipartisan solution. The Republican Party is responsible today now for the conditions that persist because of their unwillingness to work with this president who went farther than any Democratic president in my lifetime on a comprehensive package. And Donald Trump called them and threatened them. It shows the weakness not only of Trump, but also of the Speaker of the House of Representatives.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, Governor, given that, it is held up in Congress. There's no doubt about that. Do you want to see President Biden act?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I applaud –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should he take this action on restricting asylum?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I applaud the fact that he is willing to continue to move forward with this. I applaud the fact that he's seeking strategies and solutions. I applaud that he's been trying to do that. He's been trying to get 1,500 new customs and border agents on the border, 4,300 new –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So is that a yes?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
– asylum officers on the border. He wants – President Biden supported $650 million for more wall investment. That's the Biden – that’s what Biden signed off on. So by definition he wants to make progress on the border. And yes, by definition, I support his efforts outside of the legislative path – process. Because this legislature is broken. Congress is broken.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we covered a lot of ground. Great to see you.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Good to see you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor Gavin Newsom, thank you so much for being here.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Good to be back. Thanks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it. Still ahead, our panel weighs in on the South Carolina results and looks ahead to Michigan. But when we come back, as the 2024 candidates make appeals to Black voters, a look back at a presidential candidate who expanded the role of black voters. Our Meet the Press minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. As we close out Black History Month, we look back to a barrier breaker in American politics, the Reverend Jesse Jackson. He launched his first presidential campaign in 1984, becoming only the second Black American to mount a viable nationwide bid for the Democratic nomination. The Reverend Jackson joined our broadcast in the final days of his campaign, making clear that the struggle for racial equality would not be solved in a single election.
[START TAPE]
REVEREND JESSE JACKSON:
You must put one foot in the system and one foot outside. We must fight for change. We cannot adjust to the party; we must change the party. Got that right to vote, 18 years ago after much bloodshed and – and death, and yet 18 years later with this great brotherhood, that 512,000 of our elected officials, about 5,200 of them are Black. We got about 1% of the elected officials. We are about 12% of the population. At this rate, it will take us 198 years to achieve parity. My generation is restless. We must change the system and not adjust to it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, how long will Nikki Haley stay in the race? And how worried should President Biden be about Michigan? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Chief Political Analyst Chuck Todd, NBC New Washington Correspondent Yamiche Alcindor, former Obama White House Senior Adviser Stephanie Cutter, and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution and Stanford University. Thank you all for being here after a late night, particularly for you, Chuck Todd, because you were just in New York tracking all of these results. Let's remind people of the results. Trump beat Haley in South Carolina by a 20-point margin. And there's no way to sugarcoat it. Losing in your home state is devastating.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
In 2016 you had John Kasich and Ted Cruz win their home states, Marco Rubio – win – win their home states, but Marco Rubio lost and got out. What were your takeaways and what is Haley's next move, do you think?
CHUCK TODD:
I'll tell you this. One – the most remarkable number to me in the exit poll was 77%. That was the percentage of folks who said they had made up their mind about who they were going to support before the start of this calendar year. So it meant only 30 – and – and – and Trump won 70% of those folks. So you – you only have essentially one in four Republican voters. Because the South Carolina Republican electorate I think is – is closer to being a microcosm of sort of a generic Republican electorate than anything we've – we’ve experienced so far.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
This is probably the most traditional so far. So it will – it will be semi replicated, I think, through Super Tuesday. So what we're seeing here in Nikki Haley is trying to have this conversation about, "Are you sure you want to do this? And what about this?" What about – what about – for the last two months she's been trying to have this conversation, and it turns out only one in four Republican voters are even listening to this conversation. So I think we have an idea of how Super Tuesday is going to go.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
It's going to split pretty much like this. Will she do better in Virginia than South Carolina? Sure. And in Vermont and Maine, possibly. Maybe in Massachusetts. But it’s probably – I think we – we know the contours of this divide inside the Republican Party. It's a divided party. It's just not evenly divided.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's a static party from the perspective of Nikki Haley.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
They're not open to anyone beyond Trump. Yamiche, I had the opportunity to interview Nikki Haley a couple weeks ago. I asked her what did she need to do to stay in the race. She said she needed to exceed what she did in New Hampshire in South Carolina. She didn't do that. But she's defiant, she's in this race. Do you think if she doesn't do well in Super Tuesday, like Chuck's talking about, I mean, is that a moment she's got to reevaluate and potentially get out?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
You would think that that would be a moment where she would reevaluate. Because by then the race is basically over. She also told you that she would have to be building momentum –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
– and that it would have to be close in South Carolina for her to win. And obviously, as you just said, it's 20 points that she's losing by from former President Trump. I also think the story, as Chuck just pointed out, is in the exit polls. You see here people saying if – that they believe that Donald Trump is someone who can beat Joe Biden more than she could. The majority of voters said that. They also pointed out that even when it comes to independents and moderates, who she won, they’re a tiny, tiniest part of the GOP here. So you really have in the exit polls the answer to the question. Now, Nikki Haley says she's still going to be staying in. She says it's not about her political future. But obviously this is politics. So part of this is, when I talk to people, they think maybe she's looking at 2028. If Trump loses they can say, "Well, Nikki Haley tried to warn us about this." Or she's someone who just wants to point out, "Hey, this is a party that needs to be redirected. And we need to start thinking long term." But I think for Nikki Haley after Super Tuesday, it just seems really, really hard to justify to her and to her donors how she stays in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Lanhee, 2028, I mean, if – if she doesn't drop out and endorse Trump, does she have a path to 2028 or is – in this Republican Party or is that it?
LAHNEE CHEN:
2028 is a long time away. And – and if you look back at what happened in 2016 and you look at the fact that Ted Cruz never endorsed Donald Trump –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yup.
LAHNEE CHEN:
– in that nominating process, and yet he is seen as somebody who is very much firmly in that camp, I – I don't know that we can make judgments about 2028 yet. But I would say two things generally keep candidates involved in races. One is politics, and the second is money. The money dynamic is very clear for Nikki Haley. She still has plenty of resources to run out this race. And she's continuing to raise a lot of money. I've talked to many donors to her campaign who are interested in continuing to support her because they view that as a way to express a point of view. Whether she can win or not is kind of beside the issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
LAHNEE CHEN:
It's, "We're expressing a point of view." Politically, that's where it gets more complicated for her. And arguably her staying in, certainly through Super Tuesday and beyond, I don't think it affects her political calculus. Now, if she stays in till May and June it may be a different conversation. But if it's only until Super Tuesday, I think that's a perfectly reasonable thing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Stephanie, I asked Gavin Newsom if Democrats wanted her to get out. He said, "Absolutely not. She's one of our best surrogates."
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
Yeah. The argue – arguments she's making on the campaign trail are precisely the arguments that Democrats, Independents, never-Trumpers have been making for seven, eight years. You know, I do think, as a Democrat, looking at these numbers and the results of these races, there is a strong never-Trump contingent of the Republican Party. And the only way Trump wins in a general election is by delivering the Republican vote and then suppressing certain parts of the Democratic vote. There are real questions about whether he is going to be able to turn out the Republican Party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's talk about one of the big contours of the general election. It is the issue of reproductive rights. And now we have this IVF ruling in Alabama. Stephanie, how significant is this? Because look at how quickly Republicans have come out, including Byron Donalds today, to say, "No, no, no. We support IVF services. I might even sign a federal piece of legislation that would protect them."
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
They are the – the dog that caught the car. And they have been fighting for decades to overturn Roe, which is what Dobbs gave us, that Donald Trump brags about. He did that by appointing members of the Supreme Court. But you know, all of these members that rushed out to say, "Oh, we support IVF," they're the same members that are supporting legislation right now that would ban IVF. So voters are smarter than this, and they've proven they're smarter – they’re smarter than this. Since Dobbs came down, women have been turning out all over this country to say, "These are our freedoms you're taking away." I think IVF really crystallizes it. Now, it was very much predicted. We knew this was going to happen. This is not – this is not an isolated example. It's going to keep happening. And Republicans are going to keep tripping over this because their real position is that, yes, they do want to ban these things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Chuck, how do you see it playing out?
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I think it's fascinating that in a Republican primary in these exit polls we ask, you know, what's the most important issue, and abortion's always been one of the top four issues. And up until this year when you saw abortion – when you saw a Republican pick abortion, it usually meant that they were, you know, on the – on the limiting side of access, the pro-life side, however you want to characterize it. What was interesting here is in South Carolina just 10% said abortion was the most important issue. And a majority voted for Nikki Haley among those. It tells you that this is – 2022, those midterms, I think ten years from now historians will look back. You know, we're sitting here going, "Was it this Trump nominee?" No. That was a Dobbs election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
And we may go, "This may be a Dobbs decade." I – there are times that I look at this electorate and I wonder, "Can the Republicans win a national election until they figure out their position on abortion?" And I don't know if they can.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And they're all over the map in terms of messaging. They would acknowledge that. Yamiche, you were on the ground in Alabama. What did you see?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
The human impact of this cannot be underscored. The trauma that I talked to when I – when I witnessed women say that they spent years and thousands and thousands of dollars preparing for IVF, only to get calls from their doctors the day before that their procedures were canceled, people are going to remember that no matter what happens with the legislation. And let's remember, Republicans took a week for this – for them to really coalesce around the idea that they supported IVF.
CHUCK TODD:
It’s like they had to check with their groups to see what they could say.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
I was in an IVF clinic where one of the doctors told me she was having the hardest conversations of her life. I saw her physically feel relief when Donald Trump said that he was going to come out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
But she said it was head-spinning to think that politics was the reason why she can now tell her – her – her patients that they can have their dreams again, that they won't be crushed.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Lanhee?
LAHNEE CHEN:
I was going to say I think we've seen a shift in where the energy is here, right? The energy now, I think, if you look at turning out voters and you look at the enthusiasm gap, one of the issues you see is how Democrats have used this issue really to shape the electorate into an electorate that's favorable to political outcomes, whether it's in congressional seats, gubernatorial races, or, indeed, the presidential contest. So for Republicans, messaging around and having a conversation on this issue, what Byron Donalds did was exactly right, which is you've got to come out in favor of really – a really strong effort on IVF I think nationally. And that's where they've got to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. And all of this, the backdrop to Michigan on Tuesday. Thanks, folks. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.