CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, Impeached again. President Trump becomes the first president ever to be impeached twice.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
He must go. He is a clear and present danger to the nation that we all love.
CHUCK TODD:
Democrats united.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Donald Trump is a living, breathing impeachable offense.
REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND:
Simply put, we told you so.
CHUCK TODD:
Republicans largely opposed.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
It's always been about getting the president, no matter what.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
A vote to impeach would further divide this nation.
CHUCK TODD:
But ten vote to impeach.
REP. JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER:
I am not choosing a side, I'm choosing truth.
CHUCK TODD:
The president, fearing Senate conviction, suddenly changes his tone.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
No true supporter of mine could ever endorse political violence.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey and Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina. Plus, insurrection fears.
CHUCK TODD:
Concern that the Capitol riot was just the beginning.
REP. JASON CROW:
What we saw last Wednesday was really the birth of a wide scale domestic terror movement.
CHUCK TODD:
Thousands of National Guard troops in place for the inauguration and state Capitols on high alert. Washington, DC Mayor Muriel Bowser joins me this morning. Also, the growing coronavirus crisis. A more contagious variant threatens a new surge. Demand for vaccines grows amid a chaotic rollout.
KENNY WHITCHARD:
It's really lonely. It's not a joke.
CHUCK TODD:
My guest this morning, Dr. Anthony Fauci. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News chief White House correspondent Kristen Welker, Rich Lowry, editor of National Review and former Democratic senator from Missouri, Claire McCaskill. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Donald Trump leaves office this week with the distinction of having lost the popular vote twice and now having been impeached twice. At the same time Washington, DC looks like an armed camp with some 25,000 National Guard troops coming to protect Joe Biden's inauguration and state capitals from coast to coast, they’re bracing for anti-government violence from right-wing terror groups, as early as today. Still, President Trump, who has inspired much of this extremism, continues to hold an iron grip on his party. Yes, ten House Republicans voted to impeach him but 197 voted no, meaning those yes votes accounted for less than five percent of the House Republican caucus. And our new NBC News poll of registered voters has the president's approval rating holding steady at 43 percent, with 55 percent disapproving. It’s more or less where his numbers have been throughout most of his presidency in our poll, just right now on the lower end. 52 percent do say President Trump is solely or mainly responsible for the Capitol riot, while 47 percent disagree. That actually basically matches the popular vote election results. And looking at the election, while 61 percent say Joe Biden won legitimately, fully 35 percent disagree. Among Republicans, 74 percent say no, that Biden did not win legitimately. Three in four current Republicans. So two things stand out this morning. One, how can Joe Biden begin healing the country when more than one of three voters believes he didn't win legitimately? And two, the Republicans who say impeachment would further divide this country might start closing that divide themselves by admitting what they've known all along that President Trump lost this election -- and that the reason millions of Trump voters believe it stolen is because Mr. Trump -- with the help of many in his party -- purposely lied to them. Let's check in with NBC News Justice correspondent Pete Williams. He's joining us now. He's got the latest on the investigation in the Capitol riot. But Pete, I know you have some new information about the fears of possible attacks on state capitols, many of these capitols are bracing for this as early as today. How vulnerable are we today?
PETE WILLIAMS:
Well, I think the concern is high for the violence at state capitols for three reasons: first, because of the enormous volume of calls on social media among extremists for attacks on government buildings, in many states. Second, because of a worry that with a high level of security here in Washington, any group intending on attacking the government will go somewhere else. And third, because the FBI fears that the attack on the Capitol may actually embolden the hard-core groups that are pushing for more violence. So, in at least eight states, governors have activated the National Guard. And barriers have been set up around many capitol buildings.
CHUCK TODD:
As for the investigation, Pete, it seems like every day, multiple people get added to the list of folks having charges filed against them. What do we know today?
PETE WILLIAMS:
Yeah, I think they're pretty close to actually identifying everybody who was in the Capitol. This is moving very fast because of the enormous quantity of pictures and videos showing the people in there who took part and because public outrage over what happened has produced an astonishing number of tips. So far, the FBI says that it's opened investigations on about 350 people and made around 74 arrests on federal charges. So if you add the local charges, the total arrests are over 100. Among the most recent is a New York man accused of using a police body shield to break an outside window. That allowed people to begin streaming in. The FBI says it has received tips containing more than 150,000 separate photos and videos. And Chuck, in one of the more interesting developments, many of those tips are coming from friends and family members.
CHUCK TODD:
Wow. Pete Williams, on top of the investigation and the threats today, Pete, thank you. So as Washington D.C. prepares for Joe Biden's inauguration, the city looks as if it's preparing for a possible riot because, frankly, it is now. Some 25,000 National Guard troops are coming to the city. And new fencing wire has been put up surrounding restricted zones. So joining me now for more on the security situation here in Washington is the mayor of Washington D.C., Muriel Bowser. Mayor Bowser, welcome back to --
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- Meet the Press. All right, look, I've been here since before 9/11. I will tell you, it looks as if there are -- there is more security around the capital than we've seen for any other inauguration or any moment since 9/11. Is that a fair description?
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER:
I think it is. I think this will be an inauguration unlike any other. I think it was already destined to be, given Covid concerns and some of the limited seating and public access. But having our fellow Americans storm the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow the government certainly warrants heightened security.
CHUCK TODD:
You have concentrated the security efforts obviously all around, whether it's the National Mall, closing bridges connected to it, the Capitol area itself. All of it very much a fortress. What level of threat do you think we're facing? And are you concerned that we're so secure in one place, they're going to find softer targets in other parts of the city?
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER:
Well, Chuck, as you know, I convened our federal law enforcement partners who are responsible for securing this event, the United States Secret Service. This is a national special security event. More than half of those events have been conducted in Washington D.C. And the Secret Service, working with all federal agencies, is going to make this a safe event. Our special agent in charge talked about the general and specific threats that our intelligence apparatus is collecting both here and across our nation. I'm not only concerned about other state capitals, I'm also concerned about other parts of Washington D.C. What you're showing is really the federal enclave of Washington D.C., not where the 700,000 of us live. So our police department working with our federal law enforcement partners and the United States Army, quite frankly, also has a plan to pivot if we have any attacks in our neighborhoods.
CHUCK TODD:
Mayor Bowser, we're about three months away from what usually is the -- sort of the spring break student season, the tour buses are all around D.C. And obviously, the pandemic is going to limit that. But how long are we going to be living in a Washington D.C. that feels like an armed camp? I mean, how long are we going to have to live this way? Because I assume these threats don't go away on January 20th.
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER:
I think the question is a bigger question, Chuck. It is how serious is our country going to take domestic white extremism? And I think what we saw here last week is that we didn't take it seriously enough. We've never believed that so-called patriots would attempt to overthrow their government and kill police officers. But that's exactly what happened. And so I do think we have to take another posture in our city that is more domestic terrorist focused than external to our country and act accordingly. Now, we don't want to see fences. We definitely don't want to see armed troops on our streets. But we do have to take a different posture.
CHUCK TODD:
I think it's very much, if you recall Washington D.C. in the early days after 9/11, it may feel similar these days. Mayor Bowser, not easy these days having your job. Thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's turn now to the Senate impeachment trial of President Trump. I'm joined by Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. And Senator Booker, there's so much on our plate as a country. So much on your plate as a United States Senate. So the first question, when should we expect this trial to start and be done with?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, I think to get technical off the bat, there's some frustrations about getting timelines set. You need the Republican leader to cooperate in terms of time agreements. But I fully expect it to happen as quickly as possible. And I think what else is going to happen is that we're going to be able to do a lot of things at once. I think we should. If we can get the time agreements from our Republican leader, we can actually hold impeachment trials as well as do other urgently critical things like getting key national security personnel confirmed as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there -- it's interesting you say it that way, so what you're saying is this isn't an issue with the Senate parliamentarian, this is Mitch McConnell. He's yet to agree on a timeline?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, you know, I talked again to Senator Schumer last night about the same concerns that you seem to be asking about. I, for one, want to drive President Biden's economic agenda. We have a real crisis. We have a pandemic. We have an economic recession. We have national security threats. It really necessitates the Republican leader coming forward with time agreements. And that's one of the things that's concerning, soon to be Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there anything in your -- do you think the impeachment trial should be delayed in order to focus on the Biden agenda? Or do you think you guys need to do both at the same time?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
We need to do both at the same time. These are all -- and I can't think of a president in my lifetime that came to power with so many challenges. And I think the American people have a right to expect that we can work on a lot of different fronts, from an economic recession, to a pandemic, to national security threats, as well as holding a president accountable who persistently lied to the American people, whipped up far-right wing extremist and incited a riot, an assault and a siege on the United States Capitol.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there any doubt in your mind that this trial is constitutional after he leaves office? I say this, Tom Cotton, a Republican senator from Arkansas is arguing that since he's out of office that he thinks the trial's unconstitutional. What say you?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, again, I think that there is a lot of people who are going to express opinions with a great degree of certainty. We have policies and procedures as well as a -- one whole branch of government to be the referee on these things. I believe it is constitutionally dangerous not to proceed. We just had a president of the United States try to undermine the peaceful transition of power, tried to challenge a fair and free and election. And him and his agents from the moments before, from his son, to his lawyer, whipping up a crowd to go attack the Capitol. So I believe fundamentally the Senate has an obligation to act. And I worry about folks who might want to try to make this into a political tit for tat --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- that they're missing the larger historical picture here. There must be accountability for actions that are this serious and this much of a threat --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- not just to our constitution but to the erosion of our nation.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, when I think about the, say, 24 Senate Republicans that I might put in a category as persuadable for conviction, you know who those folks are, you have pretty good relationships, I think, with quite a few of them, how would you advise the House impeachment managers to design their arguments to win over that group? And you know there is that group that's a little bit more establishment, a little bit more institutional and the ones that have been silent in the four years when it comes to Donald Trump's behavior.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yeah, we tend to vilify people who are not in our political party too much in this country. There are good people who I serve with in the United States Senate who I've come to admire and respect who I know are going to be thoughtful and circumspect about this. And so I hope that this is no way seen as a political endeavor. It has got to be a larger perspective. And the arguments have to come, as I imagine they will, from really the dire issues before us as a nation. Will a president be held accountable for what he did? And what he did was extreme, what he did was ahistoric, what he did was certainly meriting impeachment and now we have to have a fair trial that I hope the arguments rest, frankly, in the law and on the facts.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Senator Cory Booker, Democrat from New Jersey. As you said, we have so many other things on our plate. But obviously impeachment being a focal point this week. I thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. I appreciate it. And please stay safe.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me now is freshman Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace. Congresswoman Mace voted against President Trump's impeachment because she says the House was violating due process. But she is also someone who voted against those that wanted to challenge the election results, and she does support censuring the president. Congresswoman Mace, welcome to Meet the Press. And I want to start with something a new colleague of yours who’s been, been in Congress quite a while, Mike McCaul, what he put in his statement because I’m curious how you view the impeachment vote just five days removed from casting it. Here’s what Mike McCaul wrote in a statement. He says – he voted with you, he voted against impeachment – but he wrote: “I truly fear there may be more facts that come to light in the future that will put me on the wrong side of this debate.” I’m curious, are you concerned about that?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Yeah, I am concerned and one of the things -- I gave my first speech on the floor of the House last week. I didn't want to do that as a freshman one week in. But I stated very unequivocally that the House has every right to impeach the president of the United States. But the fact that we bypassed judiciary, we did not open up an investigation, that we bypassed due process -- that set a dangerous constitutional precedent for others. No matter -- even if you think the president is guilty as hell like many do believe -- there has to be due process. There has to be an investigation, we have to go, even if it's through special committee work or judiciary. Those things needed to happen in order for impeachment really. I think you would have gotten more Republicans on board if it were done with due process and with an investigation.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, as you know, some of the issues had to do with timing, right? And there is this sense that is he an immediate threat staying in office? Do you empathize with that argument that said, "Okay, there's only a finite number of days here. And this needs to be focused on and you have to expedite things"?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Right. Well, one of the things, one of the options that was on the table last week when we were going through the impeachment, getting up to D.C. for that, was that there was a bicameral, bipartisan effort to look at censure as an option. That would one, hold the president accountable for his words and his actions and two, also prohibit from holding office again in the future. Unfortunately, the speaker wouldn't let us bring it up for debate or bring it up for a vote. There were measures, there were folks in place in both chambers, in both parties, that were willing to do that and go that far. But unfortunately, we didn't have the opportunity at all last week.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, in fairness, Congresswoman, there's a lot of constitutional questions about whether Congress can do this, can bar somebody from ever holding federal office again without going through the impeachment --
REP. NANCY MACE:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and conviction process.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Right. It’s complicated.
CHUCK TODD:
What's your case that you can do this without impeachment now?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, with censure, that was one of the things that I believe we should have had up for debate. It's complex, constitutionally, but there were folks in both chambers and in both parties having the ability to look at that as an option, but we couldn't even bring it up for debate or look at that as an option because we were really trying hard to figure out, “How do we, how do we hold a president accountable that put all of our lives at risk?” And this was a traumatic event for many members of Congress, and I believe in the days, weeks and months to come, as we learn more, the worse it's going to get. And we feared for our lives, many of us that day, and our staff. And, as you know, my children were supposed to be up there. And if they had been, there like they were supposed to be, I would have been devastated. And so, we do need to find a way to hold the president accountable and we're doing that in the press, and you're seeing corporations and companies say “not one more dime to those that objected, we're going to do the right thing.” So, there are other measures that I'm encouraged by seeing out there. I want to be a new voice for the Republican Party and that's one of the reasons I've spoken out so strongly against the president, against these QAnon conspiracy theorists that led us in a constitutional crisis. It's just wrong and we’ve got to put a stop to it.
CHUCK TODD:
What kind of confidence do you have in the Republican leadership and does it bother you that after the insurrection, after the riots, the two top leaders -- Kevin McCarthy and Steve Scalise -- and 130 plus of your colleagues still voted to challenge these results? Does that, does that put some, does that make you question the leadership’s decision-making?
REP. NANCY MACE:
I will tell you for me, as a new member, it was enormously disappointing. I literally had to walk through a crime scene where that young woman was shot and killed to get into the chamber to vote that night to certify what was supposed to be a ceremonial vote to certify the Electoral College. And yet, my colleagues continued to object, and they knew this was a failing motion. These objections were not going to work and they were unconstitutional. And so it is enormously disappointing. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been such a strong voice to point out the lies that have happened. Congress had no business overturning the Electoral College and neither did the vice president. And I praise Vice President Mike Pence for standing up and correcting some of those untruths that day, on January 6th. But we have reconciliation that needs to happen within our own party. We need to rebuild the Republican Party. We need to rebuild our country. And I am counting on my colleagues to join us, to be that new voice for the Republican Party to lead us out of the crisis going forward because our country is counting on us.
CHUCK TODD:
Will Liz Cheney survive any challenges to her leadership position?
REP. NANCY MACE:
I believe she will. And the irony in all of this, Chuck, is that the same people that were complaining and screaming about the president being silenced on Twitter want to silence a dissenting voice within our own party. And so, I find, I find that very hypocritical and very disappointing because we should embrace dissension. We should embrace debate. Part of the American experiment in this country is the ability and opportunity to debate ideas. Even when we disagree, we have the ability to agree to disagree and not attack one another. And there's so much division, not only within our party, but within our country right now. And we've got to do a better job. And I hope and I support Liz Cheney. And I hope that she stays a part of leadership. We need these voices right now more than ever.
CHUCK TODD:
Nancy Mace, a brand new member of Congress from the Charleston, South Carolina area and a Republican from South Carolina. Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us this morning. We appreciate it. And please--
REP. NANCY MACE:
Thank you for having me--
CHUCK TODD:
--stay safe.
REP. NANCY MACE:
--this morning.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, with caseloads and the death toll growing, why can't we get the vaccine distribution? I'll talk to Dr. Anthony Fauci next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Every day but two in this new year, the U.S. has seen at least 220,000 confirmed new cases of Covid-19. And the death toll this week stands at over 23,000. As you can see, just divide that number by seven and that's over 3,000 a day. Those grim numbers come as the nation's vaccine distribution program is becoming increasingly chaotic, and a new, more contagious strain of the virus threatens to fuel yet another surge of cases. So joining me now, the latest on what we can expect is Dr. Anthony Fauci who will be President-elect Joe Biden's chief medical advisor on Covid-19, in addition to his usual duties. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet the Press. So let me start with this plain up vaccine question which is, there is this announcement, President-elect Biden calls for releasing all of the stockpile. The Trump administration agrees, and all of the sudden, there is no stockpile. Was this a miscommunication? Was this a bigger error? What is the explanation here?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, I'm not exactly sure, Chuck, but I tried and I think successfully sorted that out. I had a conversation with General Perna last night and again this morning, and I think there was just a misunderstanding. In the beginning, when it wasn't quite clear about what the cadence, as he calls it, of the rolling out of doses would be, there was a lot of caution. So they wanted to make sure that everyone who got a first dose got a second dose on time. So when doses were released, an equal amount was kept back to make sure that if there was any glitches in the supply flow, that the people who got their first doses would clearly get their second doses. After a couple of cycles, when it became clear that the cadence of the, of the flow of doses was really going to be consistent and reliable, the decision was made instead of just giving enough for the first dose and holding back for the second dose that as soon as they got the doses available, they would give it, because now they would have confidence that the next amount they would get, they would have enough at least to give everybody the second dose, and then some to give the first dose.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. So, look, you oversee vaccine creation, so I'm curious on the manufacturing aspect of things. President-elect Biden has promised to invoke the DPA, the Defense Production Act, on the vaccine manufacturing process. Will that help in the short term, or is that something that will -- we won't see the benefits of that until the summer?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well you know, I can tell you one thing that's clear is that -- the issue of getting 100 million doses in the first 100 days, is absolutely a doable thing. What the president-elect is going to do is where it need be, to invoke the DPA to get the kinds of things we need, whatever they may be, be they tests, be they vaccines or what have you. In other words, to just not be hesitant to use whatever mechanisms we can to get everything on track and in the flow that he predicts. But the feasibility of his goal is absolutely clear, there’s no doubt about that, that that can be done.
CHUCK TODD:
The guidelines that various state and local authorities are using to distribute the vaccine – clearly, they were a bit too strict if we're finding ourselves throwing away vaccine. Have we – do you feel as if that has changed enough so that we're not going to be throwing away vaccine?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, one of the things that's clear is that the CDC came out on the basis of the recommendations from the ACIP about different groups – 1A, 1B, 1C – as recommendations and guidelines, not real restrictions. And what happened is that, maybe understandably, the states and the local authorities were really very strictly adhering to that. Where right now, what the CDC is saying, “Those are guidelines. You got to loosen them up. Be less rigid about it.” And the one thing you don't want is that if you have vaccine left over, then just move on to the next group. You know, it's kind of like, if you want to use the metaphor of well, you know, you're boarding a plane. Everybody gets on in group one, and if not everybody gets on, you open up group two. But group one can still go on. You just want a steady flow. You don't want to hold back. You want to not, essentially, overshoot nor undershoot but just let the flow keep going. I think, Chuck, that that's going to work well looking forward.
CHUCK TODD:
How close are we on Johnson and Johnson and the AstraZeneca vaccines?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Soon, Chuck. I mean, we're going to be meeting with the authorities on that. They have a lot of events, events meaning infections within the context of the trial. So their data, I think, very soon – I would imagine within a period of a week or so, or at the most, a couple of weeks – they're going to be getting their data together and showing it to the FDA. And well obviously, they're going to have to get their data and safety monitoring board to look at it to see if it is appropriate to start, you know, essentially putting the package together to get an emergency use authorization. But we're weeks away, not months away, for sure.
CHUCK TODD:
What's your level of concern about this new variant that clearly -- that a lot of folks are concerned is certainly more contagious?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah, well, we're taking it really very seriously, Chuck. You don't want people to panic. But you have to look at it from certain standpoint. Yes, there's no doubt when you look at what the Brits, and now remember, people need to realize there's more than one mutant strain. There's one from the U.K. that's essentially dominated. That's the one that is actually is seen in the United States. There's another more ominous one that's in South Africa and Brazil. We're looking at all of them very, very carefully A) to determine – obviously, the Brits have made it very clear that it's more contagious. They say that it isn't more virulent. But, you know, we've got to be careful because the more cases you get, even though on a one-to-one basis it's not more virulent, meaning it doesn't make you more sick or more likely to die, just by numbers alone the more cases you have, the more hospitalizations you're going to have. And the more hospitalizations you have, the more deaths you're going to have. The thing we really want to look at carefully is that does that mutation lessen the impact of the vaccine? And if it does, Chuck, then we're going to have to make some modifications. But we're all over that. We're looking at that really very carefully.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there a point with this variant that you think there's going to be new restrictions? Whether it -- whether advice that says double mask or additional lockdowns? Are we close to any of those ideas?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I think one of the things we've got to do, Chuck, and, you know, maybe the silver lining, if you want to call that, is that when you have a variant that's really very, very different in the sense of it's more contagious, it tells you to do two things: 1) double down on the public health measures that we've been talking about all the time. Be very compulsive, as the president-elect says, at least for the first 100 days and maybe more, everybody wear a mask. Keep the distance. Avoid the congregate settings. But also, another important thing, the easiest way to evade this negative effect of these new isolates is to just when the vaccine becomes available, people should get vaccinated. Boy, if ever there was a clarion call for people to put aside vaccine hesitancy, if we can get, you know, the overwhelming majority of the population vaccinated, we'd be in very good shape and could beat even the mutant.
CHUCK TODD:
That's one way to look at it. We're in a race against the mutant. Everybody get your arms out and get those needles ready to inject us. Dr. Fauci, as always, sir, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise with us.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you, Chuck. Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
You've got it. When we come back, the challenges Joe Biden faces in trying to heal a divided country. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us. NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Kristen Welker, Rich Lowry, editor of National Review and former Democratic senator from Missouri, Claire McCaskill. Welcome to all of you. I want to start and show you some of the stark differences we found in our poll between how Republicans and Democrats feel about where the country is headed. We asked them to put it in their own words. Well, among Republicans, we heard things like “wrong direction,” “concerns about personal freedoms,” “headed towards socialism and communism” and then simply “liberal bankruptcy.” Among the phrases we heard from Democrats were things like “hopeful,” “exhilarated” and “repairing the massive damage.” But there was also some negative phrases as well, including “downhill,” “frightened” and “headed for the toilet.” But, you know, Claire McCaskill, I want to begin, because I’ve got to show you, to just show you how polarized we are as a country. I want to show you the ratings for Jill Biden among Republicans and show you the comparisons of what the opposing party thought of first ladies coming into office. As you can see here, the Republicans have this incredibly negative view of Jill Biden, 8, 59. She's not been an overly political spouse. You go back, here's what Melania numbers were, Trump’s numbers were, among Democrats. They weren't that high, 9, 44. But I want to show you this pattern. Here's Michelle Obama among Republicans, a little less, sort of, vitriol. 17, I believe 17, excuse me, 19, 33. And then look at this from Laura Bush. It was 17, 17 among Democrats. We just thought that that might better explain polarization than any. If you hate the first lady, you've got a negative view, then you really sort of are blinded with partisanship.
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
No question this country is very divided by party. But Chuck, let's take a step back here. She was the most popular person on the poll. The only institution that was more popular than Jill Biden was the Supreme Court. She was more popular than Trump, more popular than Pence, even more popular than her husband. So, let's, let’s get perspective here. There's about 30% of the country that is totally, 30 to 35% that is totally Trump, but the majority of America has rejected Trump, especially in light of what he incited in our nation's Capitol. I think we're headed for good places because your polling, talking about Republicans and Democrats, all those independents in the middle are skewing away from Trump's Republican party.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting, Rich, I think in some ways Claire, when she's speaking for the Democrats, they have it a little bit easier. They can ignore this 30% while they govern for a while. It's going to be hard to fully ignore them, but they can sort of work around them. The Republican Party can't because that 30% translates into about 70% of the party. What does a Mitch McConnell do with those folks?
RICH LOWRY:
Well, it's tricky. Donald Trump is going to be the biggest figure in the party for a long time here. He has more energy, he has more grassroots supporters. McConnell has more institutional influence in Washington. But what we've seen over the last week or two are the opening salvos of what will be a Republican civil war that will run through Republican Senate primaries all the way down to dog catcher races. And Trump, his voters at the margins have soured on him some, but they haven't abandoned him. And I think what a lot of people, including some Senate Republicans, haven't fully counted on is I think there will be a ferocious backlash that we haven't really seen yet to a post-presidency effort to bar Trump from running from office again, which is going to strike a lot of Republicans as vindictive and undemocratic.
CHUCK TODD:
Kristen Welker, what, what is President-elect Biden's thoughts on how to -- does he bother to talk with this 30 to 35%? He obviously knows his mandate was to bring the country together, but that's a, that’s a 30% of the country that doesn't seem to want to listen to him. Does he have a thought on how he's going to talk to those folks?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I think you're going to hear that conversation begin in his inaugural address, Chuck, based on my reporting. Look, he is going to hit those themes of unity, of healing, and then he's going to have to show his work once he's in office. And it's going to start with that big challenge. He rolled out that $1.9 trillion relief package that he wants to get passed. The question is how does he do it? And speaking with those close to him, they say, "Look, of course there are going to be areas of compromise." Can he reach across the aisle and work with Republicans, work with Mitch McConnell? They are going to be feeling pressure to address these crises, the economy, Covid, all of the issues that are addressed in that relief package. And so, I think that's where the conversation begins, Chuck. I think there's also an opportunity for Dr. Biden as well. She has indicated that she wants to revive the Joining Forces military program and work on school reopenings, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about the Senate a little bit. You know, Claire McCaskill, does this -- do you view the Senate impeachment trial as having any impact on Joe Biden’s ability to bring, say, a dozen Republicans on board some early bipartisan pieces of legislation?
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
I don't think it does. First of all, Joe Biden's going to be talking Covid, Covid, Covid. He's not going to be talking impeachment, impeachment, impeachment. And the key here is Joe Biden believes that Mitch McConnell is somebody he can potentially work with. My checking in with senators, there isn't a lot of faith about that. Mitch McConnell has specialized in obstructionism to Democratic presidents, and there's a lot of senators who really don't have the same faith that Joe Biden has that Mitch McConnell will come to the table and compromise and get things done for the American people. I think most people believe that Joe Biden is setting himself up -- senators that is -- setting himself up for a failure because Mitch McConnell hasn't even come with a time agreement to begin the new Senate. So, this is not somebody who is showing signals that he's willing to work with Democrats.
CHUCK TODD:
Rich, sort of same question from the other viewpoint. Do you think the Senate impeachment trial will motivate Republicans to work with Biden or somehow move them away from working with Biden?
RICH LOWRY:
No, I don't think it will have much of an effect one way or the other. And it's sort of amazing that already, Democrats are kind of considering the impeachment trial as something to get beyond and try to push off to the side so they can focus on what they really care about, which is getting the Biden agenda passed and getting Cabinet officials nominated. And I think McConnell, you know, he had a pretty good relationship with Joe Biden in the Obama years. He thought he could cut deals with Joe Biden much better than he could with Barack Obama. So, when there's a commonality on things, you know, another relief package, some spending at the margins, I think they'll have a fine working relationship. But at the end of the day, these are two men who disagree for sincere and deeply held reasons on most of, of what will be discussed. So, McConnell is fully within his rights to oppose things he's never supported.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, how the riot at the Capitol was frankly years in the making.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The riot at the Capitol was shocking, but sadly it was not unpredictable. According to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, right-wing terrorists perpetrated the majority of all plots and attacks in the United States from 1994 to 2020. Over the past six years, these attacks have occurred in 42 states. In other words, the violence we witnessed on January 6th has been hiding in plain sight.
(BEGIN TAPE)
((RIOT CROWD NOISE))
CHUCK TODD:
The assault on the Capitol was a culmination of years of rising political violence.
DANIEL HODGES:
They ripped my mask off, stole my equipment, and beat me up.
CHUCK TODD:
Fueled by resentments, exploited by politicians on the right, and accelerated by Donald Trump.
DONALD TRUMP:
We fight, fight like hell. Get your people to fight. You're going to have to fight much harder.
CHUCK TODD:
The rhetoric of resentment legitimizing vigilante justice and leading to violence is nothing new. Ten years ago, after she voted for President Obama's health care law, Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was shot, along with 18 others, including a federal judge, by a gunman in her Arizona district. Six people were killed.
CLARENCE DUPNIK:
The disturbed personalities are the most susceptible to the vitriolic that goes on.
CHUCK TODD:
The Tea Party, broadly formed to limit the size of government, grew online, fueling a new rhetoric on the right.
SARAH PALIN:
This is the movement and America is ready for another revolution.
CHUCK TODD:
There was some attempt to quell the rhetoric.
MICHAEL STEELE:
It is certainly not a reflection of the movement or the Republican Party when you have some idiots out there saying very stupid things.
CHUCK TODD:
But the energy this more extreme rhetoric created among the base proved too intoxicating to worry if these words would eventually have consequences.
MATT BEVIN:
The roots of the tree of liberty are watered by what? The blood of who? The tyrants to be sure, but who else? The patriots.
CHUCK TODD:
From the moment he launched his campaign in 2015, Donald Trump was comfortable suggesting violence be used against his perceived political opponents.
DONALD TRUMP:
She gets to pick her judges. Nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know.
CHUCK TODD:
And throughout his presidency, Mr. Trump has been connected through his rhetoric to acts of violence. In 2018, Cesar Sayoc, a Trump supporter, mailed 16 inoperable pipe bombs to critics of the president. Also that year, an anti-Semitic terrorist killed 11 worshipers at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, which had been opposed to President Trump's immigration policies. In 2019, a gunman killed 23 people at a Walmart in El Paso after posting a racist manifesto that warmed of a Hispanic invasion, echoing Mr. Trump's language. The president condemned the attacks, but also equivocated.
REPORTER:
What do you say to your critics that believe it's your rhetoric that is emboldening white nationalists and inspiring this anger?
DONALD TRUMP:
So, my critics are political people. They're trying to make points.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Trump's supporters don't have a monopoly on violence. A Bernie Sanders supporter shot four, including Congressman Steve Scalise, at a Congressional baseball practice in 2017.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I am sickened by this despicable act.
CHUCK TODD:
But unlike Sanders, the president has praised extremists who support him.
DONALD TRUMP:
You also had people that were very fine people on both sides.
CHUCK TODD:
And the threat has been growing.
MARGARET HUANG:
Donald Trump lit the fuse of a box of dynamite that contained white supremacists, far-right militias, proud boys, boogaloos, neo-confederates, and many other insurrectionists just waiting for him to call them to action.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
We're going to be doing much more on how right-wing violence has become a growing terrorist threat on Meet The Press Reports, which airs on NBC News NOW and on Peacock. Our new season starts soon. Basically, you just got a trailer and we're going to let you know when the season begins. When we come back, Americans are divided even over who's to blame for the Capitol riot.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. About the only thing left on President Trump's agenda, Kristen Welker, appears to be pardons. Now, we asked our -- we asked voters, and again, we were the only poll -- you've seen a lot of other polls out there. They've been polls of all adults. We have been a poll of registered voters. That's why there's some differences, if you've seen, on the job rating numbers. But we asked about a self-pardon, approve, disapprove. Well, two-thirds of the country would disapprove of a self-pardon. Just 27 percent would approve of that. So, Kristen Welker, that shows you there is a line for some Trump supporters that they're not going to cross when only 27 percent of folks approve of that. Is he going to do it?
KRISTEN WELKER:
He's still undecided, I'm told, Chuck. And there are increasing conversations behind the scenes about a potential self-pardon and pardons for his family members and close aides and allies, as well as a number of other people. But he's concerned about the PR aspect of it, those numbers that you just showed, Chuck. And so, that is one of the things that is holding him back from moving forward with it. And we know that a number of his legal advisors have urged him not to do a self-pardon. I am told, though, that we can expect there to be more pardons before he leaves office. But Chuck, I think that's the dichotomy that we are seeing with President Trump right now. Yes, he still has broad support among the Republican Party, but he's increasingly isolated in the White House among his top advisors. The cascade of resignations that we saw in the wake of January 6th and the fact that you have a number of those allies who used to stand with him who just aren't anymore, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Rich, I've been thinking, if he pulls -- if he tries a self-pardon, that's probably not the best way to convince Senate Republicans not to convict.
RICH LOWRY:
Yeah, I'm not sure whether you get to conviction regardless, but a self-pardon obviously would be radioactive. I'm not sure how -- I’m not clear how effective it would be. It certainly would be legally contested. But he's certainly going to pardon another raft of allies and probably family members. And this administration has obviously been losing legitimacy by the minute and kind of literally falling apart before our eyes.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Claire, this -- this in some ways, this pardon story here at the end was inevitable with Donald Trump. I think a lot of folks assumed he would get intoxicated by this power, and he has. He loves the absolute power. Do you think, considering how he used the pardon process -- and obviously there's some stories in the Times today indicating a lot of lawyers are trying to make money off of this -- should we be reforming how this works?
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
I think so, and I think you'll see hearings about it as he moves forward. I mean, so many of these pardons have been just purely political. They haven't gone through the normal process that most presidents use, which is a very thorough vetting by the Department of Justice. It's just who can get to Trump on what day, and him waving a magic wand. You know, his real lawyers have abandoned him. His bankers have abandoned him. The PGA has abandoned him. Many in -- many in corporate America have abandoned him, and the more he uses this pardon irresponsibly, the more it cuts into that 30 percent and makes it even harder for Republicans to win an election nationally in this country ever again.
CHUCK TODD:
Hey, Rich, I want to go back to the piece we ran right before this segment about sort of the growing -- the growing violent streak that we've seen over this last decade. Because look, you are the editor of a publication that stared -- if QAnon today is the John Birch Society perhaps of the '60s, is there going to be a purge of these violent extremists from this party, and who can lead it?
RICH LOWRY:
Well, I'd say a couple things, Chuck. One, first of all, I think you have to make a distinction. Rhetoric about fighting, taking back the country, use of martial imagery -- everyone does that. That's part of the argo of American politics. What's different is these movements like Q that represent these poisonous conspiracy theories that have gained increasing traction on the right and will be a part of the civil war going forward. And so, that's what makes this different. And what also makes it different, frankly, is the president of the United States did not disavow these people, did not disavow this stuff, and in the post-election period used his considerable communication powers to whip people up and play on their very worst fears.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, look, we're all nervous today about 51 symbols of democracy, our state capitals and our nation's capital. Let's hope we have a safe Sunday and a safe week. Thank you all for watching today. We'll be back next week because, for the first Sunday of a new Biden Administration. Either way, a Meet the Press Super Bowl? Packers versus Bills, Luke? We can't wait. We'll see you next Sunday.