KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: performance anxiety. President Biden stumbles in the first debate of the presidential campaign, sending Democrats into a panic.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
What I've been able to do with the, uh, with – with the Covid, or excuse me, with, um, dealing with, everything we have to do with – look – If – We finally beat Medicare.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I really don’t know what he said at the end of that sentence, I don’t think he knows what he said either.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How will the president reassure voters concerned about his age and fitness for office?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I don’t debate as well as I used to, but I know what I do know – I know how to tell the truth.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Could there be a change at the top of the ticket? Plus: filibuster. Donald Trump refuses to say if he will accept the results of the next election and repeats multiple falsehoods while defending the actions of the rioters on January 6th.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
On January 6th, we were respected all over the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As his criminal conviction hangs over the race.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The only person on this stage who’s a convicted felon is the man I'm looking at right now.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I didn't have sex with a porn star.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My guests this morning: Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia and Republican Governor Doug Burgum of North Dakota. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Chief Political Analyst Chuck Todd, Cristina Londoño Rooney, Senior Washington Correspondent for Telemundo, Marc Short, former Chief of Staff to Vice President Mike Pence and former Obama White House Communications Director Jennifer Palmieri. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. It is yet another extraordinary moment in the 2024 election cycle, with Democrats in a state of crisis after President Joe Biden delivered a disastrous debate performance that fueled voters' top concerns about his age and ability to serve another four years in office. Not since the first Nixon-Kennedy debate in 1960, has a debate had as much potential to shake up a presidential race. This morning, there is widespread panic within the Democratic party and questions about whether the president should drop out of the race.
[START TAPE]
JON FAVREAU: I think it was a [EXPLETIVE] disaster. I think it was like maybe the worst debate I've ever seen in my entire life.
FMR. SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:
I do think people feel like that we are confronting a crisis.
DAVID AXELROD
Axelrod: There are going to be discussions about whether he should continue.
JON LOVETT:
At first, it was shocking, and it was scary, and it was sad, and by the end, it was absurd. Is the riskiest path sticking with Joe Biden or is the riskiest path saying we want someone else? And anybody who says that is not a tough call right now is full of [EXPLETIVE].
[END TAPE]
On Friday, in a stunning move, the New York Times Editorial Board called on President Biden to "serve his country" and drop out of the presidential race. NBC News has learned that President Biden is expected to address his campaign with his family at Camp David, that’s according to five people familiar with the matter. He and First Lady Jill Biden arrived there last night to join their children and grandchildren in a trip planned before Thursday's debate. The campaign was always going to be a topic of conversation, but now undoubtedly, Thursday's debate will be front and center. Senior Adviser Anita Dunn addressed the matter on Saturday:
[START TAPE]
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
You all did not have any kind of conversations about, oh, should Joe Biden drop out of this race?
ANITA DUNN:
The conversation that we had is okay, what do we do next? Okay? That is, if there's one thing that we're about, it's okay – Barack Obama said bad debates happen. We had a bad debate. What do we do next? And you know, the President, above all, is focused on, what do we do next? What do I need to go do?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden, who agreed to the earliest general election debate in modern political history, had one goal: to persuade voters who are skeptical about his age and fitness for office that he is up to serve another four years. Mr. Biden has consistently told voters: "Watch me."
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. JOE BIDEN:
If I were to run I think they're going to judge me on my vitality. Can I still run up the steps of Air Force Two? Am I still in good shape? Am I – do I have all my faculties? Am I energetic? I think it's totally legitimate people ask those questions. This is for the voters to decide. Take a look. Look at me. See if I have the energy. See if I know what I'm talking about, and make their judgment.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I think it's a legitimate thing to be concerned about anyone's age, including mine. I think it's totally legitimate. But I think the best way to make the judgment is to -- to, you know, watch me.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, on Thursday night, voters watched the president deliver a halting performance. At times appearing confused, and repeatedly losing his train of thought.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Making sure that we are able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the, uh, with – with the Covid, or excuse me, with, um, dealing with, everything we have to do with, uh – look – if – We finally beat Medicare.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
For his part, Mr. Trump unleashed a torrent of false claims – saying that most Americans supported overturning Roe v. Wade, when polls show the opposite, saying falsely again that there was widespread fraud in the 2020 election – and refusing to answer whether he would accept the election results in November.
[START TAPE]
DANA BASH:
Will you accept the results of the election, regardless of who wins? Yes or no, please.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If it's a fair and legal and good election, absolutely. I would have much rather accepted these. But the - the - fraud and everything else was ridiculous, and if you want, we'll have a news conference on it in a week.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Democratic leaders are publicly expressing support for President Biden. On Friday, former President Obama posted, quote, “Bad debate nights happen. Trust me, I know. But this election is still a choice between someone who has fought for ordinary folks his entire life and someone who only cares about himself.” President Biden's aides and allies have circulated talking points to Democrats in an all-out effort to contain the damage, trying to calm donors. At a rally on Friday in North Carolina –a defiant President Biden insisting he’s prepared to fight on.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I know I'm not a young man, to state the obvious. I don’t walk as easy as I used to, I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know — I know how to tell the truth.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The decision is effectively President Biden's alone. At this point, if he dropped out of the race, he would free up his delegates to support another nominee. So far, the president and his campaign have indicated that he does not plan to step aside. On Capitol Hill there are widespread fears about losing the White House, but top leaders are urging calm.
[START TAPE]
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
You see a performance that gets the kind of reviews that that performance got – that would be cause for concern. That was strike one. If this were a ball game he's got two more swings.
REPORTER:
Do you think President Biden is the best messenger for the top of the ticket?
PELOSI: I'm very supportive of President Biden. He's been a great president.
REPORTER:
After the debate performance last night, should he step aside?
SPEAKER HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
No.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now from Atlanta is Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia. Senator Warnock, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Great to be here with you. Good morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good morning to you. It is great to have you here. Let me start with the debate. President Biden had one goal: to prove to voters that he was capable of serving another four years in office. By all accounts he did not meet his own benchmark. Your hometown paper, The Atlanta Journal Constitution, has joined the list of newspapers calling for him to drop out. Do you think President Biden should drop out of this race, Senator?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Oh, absolutely not. You know, they say if it's Sunday morning it's Meet The Press. I'll tell you as a pastor,it’s – for me it's church time. And I can tell you that there have been more than a few Sundays when I wish I had preached a better sermon. But after the sermon was over, it was my job to embody the message, to show up for the people that I serve. And that's what Joe Biden has been doing his entire life, his entire life of public service, and over the last four years. He's been showing up for the American people. He's been showing up for seniors as they've been dealing with the rising cost of prescription drugs, of having to choose between buying food and buying medicine in the wealthiest nation on the planet. He's been showing up for workers. He's been showing up for folks who, chasing the American dream, have found themselves mired in student debt, a kind of government-sanctioned debt trap. And he found a way, while being resisted by Trump's allies, to forgive that debt and give people a fighting chance. The question this morning is not, "What is Joe Biden going to do?" The question is, "Who has Donald Trump ever shown up for other than himself and people like himself?" I'm with Joe Biden, and it's our assignment to make sure that he gets over the finish line come November, not for his sake but for the country's sake.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I hear you saying, "Look, this was a bad performance," but a lot of Democrats are saying, "Boy, it was more than that. It raised real concerns about his readiness, his ability to serve another four years." What was your reaction when you saw him struggling to complete sentences?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Well, listen, if they weren't engaged in a little bit of hand wringing, they wouldn't be Democrats. And, again, maybe it's because I preach every Sunday, there – bad debates happen, as President Obama has said. And this was 90 minutes. But let me tell you about that 90 minutes. Donald Trump lied the entire 90 minutes. One analysis said that he told about 30 lies. I'm not real good at math, but I think that's about a lie every 90 seconds. That's real talent. That means that whenever his mouth was moving, he was lying. And we can't have somebody like that in the Oval Office. That's – that’s not a talent we need leading the free world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
And so Joe Biden has demonstrated, not over 90 minutes but over the last four years the character and the metal of the man that he is. And he has demonstrated this, both in his public service –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– and in his personal life. His is a life of public service, baptized in sorrow, and it is why you feel his sense of care when you're with him. And it's our job. Democracy is a group project. It's our job to make sure that Donald Trump gets nowhere near the Oval Office.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, Senator, it was President Biden's job to push back on those lies that you mention. And by all accounts, he either wasn't capable or wasn't ready to do that during that debate on Thursday night. Why shouldn't Democrats, his supporters, be deeply concerned about his ability to take on Donald Trump, what you have framed as an existential threat?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
I have to admit to you that I almost forgot how much Donald Trump lies. And one of the other things that I saw in that debate and the American people saw – if you want to talk about the big takeaway – we saw Donald Trump trash-talking the whole country –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– as he's been doing over the last several years, trash-talking our workers –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– saying that they're people who are dying everywhere. In fact, the murder rate spiked under his leadership. It's gone down in record numbers under – under President Biden's leadership. He's been trash-talking our country. If you listen to Donald Trump, you have to come away with the conclusion that he thinks he's better than America. The opposite is true. America is better, a whole lot better, than Donald Trump. And we've had a primary. It's our job to demonstrate that. The world is watching, and our children are counting on us to get this right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, if that's the case, if those are the stakes, the future of this country and the children of this country, if you think President Biden should stay in this race, what do you think he needs to do to be able to win? Because I have to tell you I've been having conversations with Democrats throughout the weekend who say he cannot win this race, at this point.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
He needs to keep showing up the way –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Does he –
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– he's been doing for –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– need to show up more? Does he need to show up more, Senator?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Look – he – he – I think –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Does he need to be doing more interviews and more debates?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
I – I think he needs to keep showing up the way he has been showing up for the American people and for the people in my state. When we passed a bipartisan infrastructure bill, we invested some $9 billion in my state alone. This is creating jobs, some 600,000 jobs all across our country. And I think part of the reason we're here, with all due respect, Kristen, is that often in our politics in America, it's covered like it's a football game. This is not fantasy football. This is people's lives we're talking about. And we spend a lot of times on these programs talking about the politicians as if politics is about the politicians. Who's up, who's down after one debate. Who's in, who's out? I think the American people sitting around their kitchen tables this morning is asking – are asking, "Who cares? Who's thinking about me? Who cares about me?" And we have no proof that Donald Trump has ever thought about anybody –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– other than himself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, when you think about what the next several months of this race are going to look like, the debate will continue to be front and center undoubtedly. And the RNC signaling what their attacks are going to look like, they posted this video spotlighting Democrats' claims about the fitness of President Biden, and it really is a preview of what we may see. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
He is sharp, intensely probing, and detail-oriented and focused.
SEN. CHRIS COONS:
This is a man who is sharp, who is on top of his game, who knows what's going on.
MITCH LANDRIEU:
This guy's tough. He's smart. He's on his game.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
His mental acuity is great.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
This is a very sharp president.
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
This is a man that's on his game.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, do those comments reflect the Joe Biden you know when you are with him behind closed doors?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Oh, absolutely. I have spent time with Joe Biden, and I can tell you that not only does he have a tough mind, he has a tender heart. And that's what you need in a president. Donald Trump has neither. He – he lacks both intellectual curiosity and emotional empathy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But – but - to –
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
He doesn't think deeply about anything, and he's not thinking about anybody other than himself. That is the binary choice in front of us. And, again, with all due respect, I – I think that this exercise in fantasizing about a scenario that – that we don't have –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– is unhelpful. We can ill afford to be distracted at a time like this. We have a man who has the competence –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– and the character to lead this great nation and who loves this nation. We have a – another man who thinks he's better than the nation. And it is our job to prove that America is better than Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Does he need to prove that in a more robust way? For example, the White House released a summary of the president's annual physical back in February, no cognitive exam was done at the time. For the sake of transparency, should President Biden take a cognitive exam before the election and release those results?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Listen, in the course of an election – and I'm not a part of the campaign – in the course of an election, we ought to test these men. And they ought to be out there in front of the public. We ought to see who they are. And quite frankly, the more I hear Donald Trump talking, the more nervous I become. I don't need –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So is that a yes –
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– to see –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– to a cognitive –
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– Donald Trump's –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– test?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
– cognitive exam.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is that a yes?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Well, listen, I – I – I'm not a doctor. Listen, it's – it’s not something, quite frankly, I've even thought about. I'll tell you, watching Donald Trump the other night I had to say to myself, "This – this is a sick person." I mean, how do you stand and literally lie every 90 seconds? I – I don't – I don’t know anybody like that. We're not even talking about whether you're worthy to be the president of the United States. This is somebody with – with a deep personal issue, and America's better than Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I know we're not there yet but as you well know there's a lot of buzz about whether or not President Biden will step down. If he does, would you like to see Vice President Harris at the top of the ticket? Is she the next strongest person to represent Democrats?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
I have great respect for Vice President Harris, whom I spent a great deal of time with and – but Joe Biden is the nominee, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure we elect Joe Biden and Kamala Harris come November.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If he's not the nominee, is she the strongest choice?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
I – I think it is quite unhelpful to be imagining about a scenario other than the one that's in front of us. We've – we’ve got real enemies abroad, and this is a serious race at a moment – listen, elections, at the end of the day, are not only about the character of the folks who are running but the character of the country. And this is our moral assignment in this moment: to demonstrate to our children that we are – we are better than a people who would reelect somebody who is a pathological liar, a malignant narcissist. Our country is better than that, and I think the future is bright under Joe Biden's leadership.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Warnock, thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
Thank you. Good morning, everybody.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. And when we come back, he's on the short list of Donald Trump's vice presidential picks. North Dakota governor Doug Burgum joins me next.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Did anybody last night watch a thing called the debate? Many people are saying that after last night's performance that Joe Biden is leaving the race. But the fact is I don't really believe that, because he does better in polls than any of the Democrats they're talking about.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. In Virginia on Friday, former President Trump tried to capitalize on President Biden's debate performance while casting doubts about whether Mr. Biden will drop out of the presidential race. Joining me now is Republican Governor Doug Burgum of North Dakota, a top finalist to be Mr. Trump's running mate. Governor Burgum, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Morning, Kristen. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here in person. Let's talk about Donald Trump's debate performance. Three times he refused to say that he would accept the results of this election. He still has not conceded the 2020 election. You have said that Joe Biden is the legitimately elected president. So, let me ask you, should Donald Trump, as the presidential nominee, unequivocally accept the election results?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, Kristen, I heard him on Thursday night say that he would accept the results of the election if it was free, and fair, and secure, all the things that any of us, whether you're an independent, a Democrat, or a Republican, would expect, like the elections we have in North Dakota, where people don't challenge them because we've got secure elections. And I think that's what we need in this entire country. I think he answered the question. I think the real question is, if President Trump wins in the fall, which it looks like he will, will Joe Biden and the Democrats accept the results?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, as you know, though, in his answer, repeatedly, there were caveats. And those types of caveats are what undermine people's faith in a free and fair democracy. Is he not undermining people's faith in the democracy, in the democracy itself, by raising questions about the fairness of the 2020 election, which, by the way, is on record as being one of the most fair elections in U.S. history?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I think – I have to reject the whole premise, because just in the short lifetime – you don't have to be that old to know that in 2000, the Democrats challenged the election. They had every right to challenge it. It went down to one county, the hanging chads in Broward County in Florida. In 2016, yes, Hillary Clinton conceded the election, but then immediately after that began, what's still going on today, a smear campaign about whether the election results in '16 were legitimate. And so, both parties have done this. As a country, if we want to move forward, we have to –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, governor –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– have elections that both parties agree to.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, let me just push back for a moment, because therein lies the difference. Everyone has the right to challenge the election. Donald Trump challenged the election results. He had a right to do that. And yet, Hillary Clinton and Al Gore conceded. Donald Trump has yet to concede. Is that not undemocratic, particularly for someone who's running to be the leader of this country and the free world again?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Donald Trump, at the end of his term on January 20th, left the White House. We had a smooth transition. And I think it's fair for –
KRISTEN WELKER:
January 6th wasn't exactly a smooth transition, governor.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I think we have to say that there was a smooth transition, and everybody in both parties is going to challenge elections if they don't think they're fair. And we don't have one election in America. There's over 3,100 counties, and each of those counties sometimes have different rules. And in 2020, of course, with Covicd there was a myriad set of new rules and regulations that we had never seen before. And so, of course, going into 2024, I think both parties are going to be very focused on it. The idea that this is a threat to democracy, as a governor in North Dakota today, I've been living under what I call the Biden dictatorship because of all the rules and regulations. Now, thank goodness for the Supreme Court that came out on Friday with the Chevron ruling, because maybe now we can put a stop to agencies actually creating laws that don't come from Congress.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about your comments about a dictatorship, and then I want to get back to this, because you say he's a dictator for passing all these rules and regulations. Biden's passed 139 executive orders, Trump had passed 169 at this point, and, governor, you as governor have passed 164. Does that make you the dictator of North Dakota?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I'm not trying to jam rules and regulations down on our state. And most of President Trump's executive orders were trying to get rid of red tape. Joe Biden's actually creating a bunch of new, effectively, laws –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– that are affecting our country. And I want to go back to the debate –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, again, that –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I want to go back to the top. You asked about the debate. Every channel this morning should be talking about what happened. This is the most consequential, historic debate in history, because we've never had a debate where, immediately after it's over-- this is like a Rocky knockout. I mean, they should build a statue to Donald Trump at Georgia Tech, because everyone's talking about, "Should Joe Biden even stay in the race?" That's never happened in our history. It was such a dominant performance by President Trump in this – in this debate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's also never happened in our history that someone has not actually accepted the election results, which is where this conversation began. So, let me ask you, governor. Can you say, as someone who is on the short list to be Trump's VP nominee, can you commit, here and now, today, to accepting the election results?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, Kristen, these hypothetical questions that keep coming up, imply that, somehow, in every one of our 3,100 counties in America, everything is going to go perfectly. I've never commented on a bill before it reached my desk. I'm not going to comment on an election before it happens.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You won't commit to accepting the election results, governor?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I will commit to – if they're free and fair, of course. But this hypothetical question that everyone keeps asking, the Democrats won't accept it if there are irregularities in the fall. Ask Joe Biden if he would accept it if he thought it wasn't free and fair. If he thought there was issues, would he accept it? So, the premise that only one party gets asked this question –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– is just a false premise.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, again, the Democrats have said that they will accept the election results. And no Democrat has refused to concede who is running for office. Again, just one more time, does that not undermine the democracy, people's faith in our democracy, to caveat it in the way that you have? Again, election officials have said the last election was the safest in U.S. history.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
What undermines the faith in democracy, and we've seen in the polls, people trust President Trump more than Biden on democracy right now –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– and the Democrat Party in this election, four years ago, when we ended up with the current ticket on the Democrat side, that was this grand devil's bargain of, "Everybody drop out; we're going with these two." Then, the biggest lie that has been foisted on the American public was –was seen on Thursday night. People can't unsee what they saw. What they saw was, we've been told by the White House-- two weeks ago, the White House was attacking journalists, including your friends, saying that, “No, you can't say these stories about that, Joe Biden isn't capable of serving right now.” And then, all of America saw it. And you know who else saw it? Our adversaries saw it. Putin saw it. Xi saw it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
The Ayatollah saw it. I mean, we keep talking about elections.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
We are at a greater national security risk today –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– than we were on Thursday –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– because the commander in chief showed –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– that he's not capable of serving.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, there's not proof of that. But, Governor, let me just ask you about the debate and a little bit more of what we saw. By one count, Donald Trump made more than 30 false claims during that debate. I want to play something you told my colleague Chuck Todd on this broadcast last year. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You ever lied in politics?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
That you know of? You don't believe you've ever lied?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No. I –
CHUCK TODD:
You feel like you've always told the truth as you understood it in politics –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Absolutely. That's how I was raised, and that's how I've gone forward.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
As someone who is on Donald Trump's short list to be his vice presidential nominee, do you think he should stop saying things that are not true?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I think that the whole manufactured thing this morning of, "Donald Trump has said something that he hasn't said before," I mean, everything that he said on Thursday night, he's been saying before. I mean, so –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But it's not manufactured, governor –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– this is not news.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But this is not manufactured, governor. I mean, just to say a few, he said that Democrats want to kill infants after birth. That's not true. He again lied about widespread fraud. Not true. He lied about his comments after Charlottesville. Should he be truthful with the American people if he wants to lead this country?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Especially given what you just said, that you never lie. That's your standard, governor.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I think you bring up an important issue, because I think one of the reasons why the Democrats are in complete disarray. It's not just Joe Biden's performance, but they were running on something, which is that they were concerned about Republicans' position on life, and Donald Trump was very clear. He will not support a federal abortion ban. He was super clear on that during the debate. And when he challenged Joe Biden and said, will you agree to any restrictions, the moderators asked Joe Biden, will you agree to any restrictions, you know, in the last day of the ninth month, and Joe Biden would not commit to that. So, the marker's been set. The Democrats have the extreme position. And, like President Trump, I believe this belongs back with the states, and that's where it should stay.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and of course Democrats have said that they only support those abortions if, of course, the life of the mother is at stake or the life of the child. I want to play something that you said about abortion when you were running for governor in 2016.
[START TAPE]
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
When you outlaw the ability to terminate pregnancies and make it illegal, it just makes it unsafe for some of the most vulnerable people in the world, young women who are scared, who are afraid, who are in a spot, you know, that they don't want to be in. America was an unsafe place for women before Roe v. Wade.
[END TAPE
KRISTEN WELKER:
And to put a fine point on what you said there, you said, "America was an unsafe place for women before Roe v. Wade." So, by your own standard, Governor, is America unsafe for women as a result of Roe being overturned?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No, it's not. And, of course, this is something that should have been returned to the states.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, you've evolved in your thinking in that? Because you said right there it was unsafe for women before Roe was in place.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, let's be clear.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What changed?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
That was a comment from over eight years ago. And certainly, I've evolved in that position. But part of it I've evolved is that I understand that it's important that what North Dakota, as a very pro-life state, different than even our neighbor, Minnesota, the states are going to be different. And I have been clear that I am opposed to a federal abortion ban. I'm aligned with President Trump on that. And this is something that has to be left to the states.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, just to be very clear,how and what changed your mind? Why did you think it was unsafe before Roe v. Wade, and why not now? Is it because you're looking to be the vice presidential nominee to Donald Trump?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Not at all. I think you know and everybody else knows that care has evolved during that period of time. And I think that we can accomplish both of those goals. We can make sure that we're protecting and honoring life but making sure we're also delivering against maternal care. And that's going to be handled best at a state-by-state level.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Obviously, as we started this conversation, we talked about the fact that you're on the short list to be Donald Trump's running mate. Have you heard from the president about this? Has he asked you to be his running mate?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Everything about the process of the Vice President thing, that's between the campaign and those that might be being considered. But I would just say that President Trump, after his strong debate performance on Thursday, where he was going in the polls before that, what this is doing for his fundraising, the strong performance he has, he's got so many good choices that he can pick for this job. He can probably win the election without a vice president going forward. But I think he'll make –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– a decision –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have you had any conversations about it, yes or no, Governor, before we go? We're out of time. But yes or no?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
That would be between the president and I.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, well, that's not a no. Okay. See, I lost my pen. Good. We made some news. Thank you Governor, I appreciate it. Governor Burgum, thank you so much. When we come back, pressure is growing for President Biden to drop out of the race, so will he step aside? We'll discuss it. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Chief Political Analyst Chuck Todd; Cristina Londoño Rooney, senior Washington correspondent for Telemundo; former Obama White House Communications Director Jennifer Palmieri; and Marc Short, former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Thanks to all of you for being here. No shortage of things to discuss on this Sunday. Chuck, let me start with you. Like you, I've been working the phones and hearing panicked calls from Democrats throughout the weekend. What are you hearing? Take us inside your conversations.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, look. I mean, Thursday night to Friday morning, it was full-on panic, and everybody was trying to figure out, what are the rules of the DNC? How would this work? Who could get to Biden? Who could get to Joe Biden to talk him out to this? I would say, over the weekend, there's this sort of resignation. What I would say is there's not much that can be done without his cooperation, okay? This only happens if he chooses to do it. And there appears to be an unofficial memo that has gone out that has said, If you want him to get out, don't say it yet. Because if you say it publicly, you know, nothing – nothing will get him more defiant about staying in this race than the New York Times editorial page saying, get out of this race. And you could see it. There's been some public leakage of report of some donors saying this, I think Reid Hoffman, sort of indicating this. But, you know, look, there's about a ten-day window here, okay? I am fascinated by some things we haven't seen. We haven't seen Biden. One rally that they were able to put together in North Carolina that was very difficult to put together. Rallies are very hard right now for Democrats because they have to worry about Gaza protesters, all of this other stuff. Yes, that went well. Where is he since? If you have issues about whether you can think on your feet, and it's not a problem, and it's just a bad debate, what would you be doing? You'd be flooding the airwaves. You'd be doing interviews, whether it's podcasts, whether it's this or that. You'd go to friendly spots, whatever. The fact they're not doing any of that I think is one of those, "Hey, look what's not happening." That's a big deal too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Cristina, pick up on that point. I mean, basically, Democrats are also waiting to see what the polling will show, and the public has the final say here. We all saw the same debate. But if it doesn't have a big impact with the public, with voters, President Biden could make the argument, "Hey, look, I'm going to stay in this race." How are people who you're talking to reacting to what we witnessed on Thursday?
CRISTINA LONDOÑO ROONEY:
Well, the voters that we talk to, we had a town hall meeting in L.A. with Latino leaders, and a lot of them said that they didn't hear anything new. It was more form over substance. And they're saying that the worst fears they had of both of them were confirmed and came true. They see a Biden who did not put to rest their concerns about his acuity, mental acuity. They were resentful that he didn't defend them more against the litany of lies that Donald Trump was saying. And they were very resentful of the golf back and forth between them. They said –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, that's interesting.
CRISTINA LONDOÑO ROONEY:
– it's two old, white men being childish, talking about something that most of the working class does not understand. And then I was out talking to registered voters in Atlanta. One of them said he'd rather vote for Biden, an 80-something that sometimes loses his train of thought, than a man that has 80-something criminal charges against him. There was another guy who said he's going to stick with Trump. This did not change. But there was a couple that was very interesting because what they said to me is that they love Joe Biden, especially because he was the guy that saved the country from Trump being reelected. And they are concerned that, by staying, he's going to be the guy that brings him back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jen, give us the reality check inside the Democratic Party. Can he stay in this race?
JENNIFER PALMIERI:
I mean, I think Chuck is right about how, you know, a lot of concern on Friday night, and now we're 48 hours in. And the funny thing is, the deeper we get into it, the more you realize how early this is, right? You know, it was a bad performance and was particularly concerning given his age. But, you know, polls right now are kind of meaningless. And then when you look at the actual evidence, he's raised, there's a number now, I think it's $33 million dollars. He had, you know, – the campaign points to his good performance on Friday in North Carolina. And I think what's important about that performance isn't necessarily that, you know, he had a good moment. It was the way the crowd reacted to him. And so I think people are saying, is there a rallying effect here? Are people having his back? I have certainly been guilty of underestimating. Like, I did not think he was going to win the 2020 nomination. I have underestimated. Like, the American people decided in 2017, Joe Biden is the guy to take on Trump. And do you really want to mess with that now, given the stakes? And when the only evidence we have right now is there seems to be a rallying effect. And I think that is why people are hanging back, you know, and not criticizing him, and giving room for everyone to process what this means. And, you know, people are approaching this with a lot of integrity. I think they're just trying to figure out what the right thing to do is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, speaking of that. I mean, Marc, are Republicans almost a little nervous for President Biden to get out of the race? Because, then, that's a game-changer. And, by the way, you're getting a lot of ratings for a brokered convention. All of a sudden, all of that focus on Donald Trump will shift pretty quickly to the Democrats.
MARC SHORT:
Kristen, I think that it was an absolute disaster for the Biden campaign on Thursday night. And I think that most of America is already locked in on what they're going to do. There's only a small sliver of people undecided, so you're not going to see a lot of change in polls, which I think will be a false comfort to many Democrats. But the reality is, for this very small number of undecided voters, they were looking to see, "Can he make it in the most important job in the world for another four years?" And now they're wondering, "Can he make it for another six months?" I mean, it was a dramatic – dramatic failing for President Obama – President Biden in that appearance. And I think the reality is that, for Republicans, they probably are pretty encouraged at what they stand. And there's no way out for Democrats right now, Kristen. If they go to Kamala Harris, she's less popular than Joe Biden. And if the party of identity politics passes over the first African American female vice president to choose somebody else, there's going to be all kinds of rifts.
CHUCK TODD:
But, you know, Democrats want to lecture Republicans for putting party over country and how they've been enabling of Donald Trump. Mitch McConnell is frequently criticized for that moment where he decided to prioritize not dividing his own party and letting Trump off the hook by not voting to convict him during the impeachment. Can Democrats really sit there and say, you know, "This is not about whether you think Biden can win the election"? He might be able to win the election. It's not because he's Joe Biden, it's because he's not Donald Trump. The real issue is, is he telling the truth about whether he can serve a full four years? And this – there's a lot of challenges in the world. Do we want a president who could be incapacitated? This is – this is one of those where you've got to say to yourself, "This is hard. There's no doubt. There's risk no matter what you do here." But you've got to say to yourself, "What's in the best interest of the country?" Not the party. What's in the best interest of the country in the next four years?
JENNIFER PALMIERI:
And I think people don't know that yet, you know?
CHUCK TODD:
That's a fair point.
JENNIFER PALMIERI:
You know, it's a pretty big deal to say the president of the United States is unable to do his job. And there's not any evidence of that, given the job that he's done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. I'm going to pause it because we have another panel coming up. We're going to continue this discussion. When we come back, a very memorable moment in Atlanta with millions watching that wasn't a presidential debate. We look back in Muhammad Ali's iconic Olympic torch lighting at the 1996 games. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The Paris Olympics are now less than a month away. The final preparations underway as the city prepares to welcome more than 15 million fans. In 1996, Olympic gold medalist Muhammad Ali lit the cauldron during the opening ceremony to the Atlanta games, a ceremony also dedicated to the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Civil rights leader Andrew Young, the Olympics co-chair, and Atlanta's former mayor, reflected on this moment in an interview with Meet the Press.
[START TAPE]
ANDREW YOUNG:
When we were selecting who should light the torch, we really wanted that team. We wanted Evander Holyfield and a Greek sprinter, and we wanted Janet Evans. And we thought Muhammad Ali was the best-known athlete who really took his sport to a new level. And I think though that, if Martin was right that, violence is the language of the unheard, that everybody in the world is speaking in these Olympics in some way, and the presence of Muhammad Ali should have been a symbol of the fact that we're Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, all working together.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you can watch the Paris Olympics this summer on NBC, and streaming on Peacock. When we come back, it's Donald Trump's most important decision before the party convention: Picking his vice president. The panel weighs in next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the panel is back. Jen, let's talk about what would happen if President Biden were to make that decision to step aside, to pass the torch. What would that look like? What would an open or brokered convention look like?
JENNIFER PALMIERI:
It's kind of unappealing, so I think that's partly why people – everyone is just processing, what that's going to be. So if he decided to step aside prior to the convention, you know, people could – people could run. And we would have ballots after ballots until somebody emerged from the convention as a winner. There's this one idea that I think James Carville has that Maureen Dowd talked about today where Obama, Clinton, and Biden would select five people to go to the convention like America's Got Talent. Dems Got Talent. I mean, we do. But, I mean, I think the people would self-select themselves. I don't think somebody can pick them. And you would have a convention. Now, there's an argument, “wow, that would be so exciting.” And, “wow, you'd come out of that energized.” But we also know that, you know, an idea sounds good, and then once you release it into the world you just never know what you're doing. And I think that's what people are worried about.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I will say this. When you're afraid of democracy, then you're already making a mistake, right? When you make decisions based on, "Well, I'm afraid more people will be involved in this process," like, every time a political party worries about the voters and then tries to sort of create a system that sort of, kind of sideswipes, you're opening yourself up for problems here. That said, let's be realistic here. If he decides to do this, to back off, he controls his delegates because they are already his delegates. Essentially he'd be king- or queen-maker here. And there is really no other option, okay? It's Kamala Harris. And I kind of think everybody needs to just realize this: It's going to be her, which perhaps is why suddenly you have other Democratic figures saying, as much as they want this, they're nervous if she leads the ticket. But I think you look at Biden's poll numbers and, if you believe this is about Biden, then you would say stick with him. I think it's pretty obvious this is about Trump. You know, we should look at this through the other prism: How has Trump not gotten a list out of this? I think it just shows you how--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc?
MARC SHORT:
Well, look, he's got a –
CHUCK TODD:
– unpopular he is.
MARC SHORT:
– high floor and a low ceiling, and that's the dynamics. I said in the first panel, I don't think you see a big difference in the polling. But for that very small number, our country is so divided, for that very small number who are still undecided, they have no confidence that Biden can be president again. And Kamala Harris is the only one who doesn't do as well against Trump as any other Democrat. So where do they go?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I mean, right now, she doesn't do as well. Cristina, I spoke to someone who said, "Well, wait a minute. It could look a little bit different." If this happens, this scenario that Jen lays out, what if former President Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton say, "Hey, support this person. We're throwing our weight behind this person." That could potentially change the dynamic, potentially, for Kamala Harris.
CRISTINA LONDOÑO ROONEY:
Well, they're talking though us, as a country and as a nation, would be in that contested convention. They would be kingmakers. What does that say about democracy? That's one of the questions. And would it be a boost or a bust? We don't know. It depends on the infighting, the chaos. I don't think the American people have a big stomach for more chaos and more divisiveness –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I think –
CRISTINA LONDOÑO ROONEY:
– at this point.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– you're right. I think that people are concerned –
CHUCK TODD:
But regardless –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– about the chaos.
CHUCK TODD:
– the campaign has to change. If Biden is going to stay, it's pretty obvious. Anybody that has dealt with elderly parents or elderly friends knows it's like going bankrupt, okay? First, it happens slowly, then it happens quickly. And it would be irresponsible for the Biden campaign at this point not to make her more front and center. If they're going to stick with this, she's got to be the lead. They've got to get the country comfortable with her because a lot of people are going to go to the polls with the assumption, if Biden is leading the top of the ticket, that he's not going to finish his term. So it would be irresponsible if the Biden campaign didn't essentially help her make a better connection with the American people. Arguably, the Biden West Wing has never been fans of Kamala Harris. It's obvious. They sort of have always kind of ostracized her. They kind of need to put her more front and center.
JENNIFER PALMIERI:
That may have been true at one point; I don't feel like that's true anymore. She was really great on Thursday night. You know, I think she makes the most effective argument on abortion. You know, I think –
CHUCK TODD:
She might be better as an advocate for him than herself, right?
JENNIFER PALMIERI:
She's a great advocate on abortion. She calls them Trump abortion bans, you know, which is what everybody should call them. I think you will see more of her. Even if Thursday night had been awesome, I think she would be out there more, and that's a good thing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, one beat on veep stakes for Trump. I tried to get an answer out of Doug Burgum. He went so far as to suggest that there have been conversations.
MARC SHORT:
Sure. I'm sure there have.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, I mean, who do you think he's going to pick –
MARC SHORT:
Look, I think –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– if you had to make a bet right now?
MARC SHORT:
– the story's right. About a month on this panel, I think I said it would be Burgum, Marco Rubio, or JD Vance. I think Burgum provides the personality complement to Donald Trump. He provides the Midwestern governor. He provides a lot of assurances to a lot of people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Loyalty.
MARC SHORT:
Loyalty. I –
CHUCK TODD:
That's familiar, Marc.
MARC SHORT:
I know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sounds a lot like Vice President –
MARC SHORT:
I think Marco –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– Mike Pence.
MARC SHORT:
– Rubio I think the most substance as far as understanding international foreign policy. JD Vance is a mini-me. So I don't know which way he's going to go.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Last ten seconds, Cristina, final thoughts on what you're watching for in veep-stakes.
CRISTINA LONDOÑO ROONEY:
Well, obviously we're Telemundo. We're watching to see if Marco Rubio gets it. He would be the first Hispanic. It would be a history-making decision. And obviously, we're watching how he justifies what he said about Trump before, and how now he's fallen in line with him. But we're expecting that from all three of them right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's a great point. And one of the big shifts we've seen is on his view on immigration, so great point. Thank you all for a fantastic conversation on a very big Sunday. And before we go, I just want to thank my dear friend and colleague Peter Alexander who did a phenomenal job in the moderator's chair for these past few weeks. John, Margot and I were so thrilled to welcome John Zachary into our lives. And a very big thanks to all of you out there for your support. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.