KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: courtroom clash. President Trump calls for a federal judge to be impeached after ruling against the administration’s deportation efforts.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I think at a certain point you have to start looking at what do you do when you have a rogue judge.
TOM HOMAN:
I don't care what the judges think. I don't care what the left thinks. We’re comin’.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The chief justice pushes back with a rare rebuke as questions grow about what happens if the administration defies a court order.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the United States in a constitutional crisis?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Yes, and democracy is at risk.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My exclusive guests this morning: Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer and Republican Senator John Curtis of Utah. Plus: backlash.
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET:
It’s important for people to know, you know, when it’s time to - to go.
KRISTEN WELKER:Frustrations boil over inside the Democratic Party as the top Senate Democrat faces pressure to step aside.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you feeling pressure to step down?
KRISTEN WELKER:
And: fast and furious. Elon Musk’s budget slashing efforts are fueling violent protests at Tesla dealerships and igniting more outrage at voter townhalls.
REP. MIKE FLOOD:
I support Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency.
CROWD:
Boo.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson; NBC News White House Correspondent Yamiche Alcindor; Adrienne Elrod, former senior adviser to the Harris campaign; and Stephen Hayes, editor of the Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. President Trump's clash with the courts is growing as legal experts and lawmakers warn the country could be nearing a constitutional crisis. Last week, a federal judge temporarily blocked the Trump administration's use of an 18th-century law known as the Alien Enemies Act to deport hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members to a prison in El Salvador. The judge ordered the deportation flights to turn around. That didn’t happen, but the Trump administration denies defying the court’s order. President Trump lashed out, calling for the judge to be impeached.
(BEGIN TAPE)
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We have very bad judges, and these are judges that shouldn't be allowed. I think they – I think at a certain point you have to start looking at, what do you do when you have a rogue judge. The judge that we're talking about he's, you look at his other rulings. I mean rulings unrelated, but having to do with me, he's a lunatic.
(END TAPE)
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just hours after the president’s social media post, Chief Justice John Roberts delivered a rare rebuke, writing, quote: "For more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose." NBC News has tracked thirty-seven rulings from federal judges that have at least temporarily blocked actions taken by President Trump.
President Trump has insisted he would not defy a court order.
(BEGIN TAPE)
LAURA INGRAHAM:
Going forward -
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I’ve had -
LAURA INGRAHAM:
- would you -
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
- judges so corrupt -
LAURA INGRAHAM:
- would you - would you defy a court order? Is that - we all know that -
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I never did defy a court order.
LAURA INGRAHAM:
And you wouldn't in the future?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
No, you - you can't do that. However, we have bad judges. We have very bad judges.
(END TAPE)
KRISTEN WELKER:But then on Friday, the president left the door open.
(BEGIN TAPE)
REPORTER:
If there was a flight tonight full of accused gang members, and somebody called and said, “Mr. President, I know that this is still being adjudicated, but if we can get these guys down to El Salvador right now.” Would you say that that's okay?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I would say that I'd have the secretary of state handle it, because I'm not really involved in that, but the concept of getting bad people, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, all of the - these are really some bad people out of our country. I ran on that. I won on that. What they should be asking this judge -- this radical left judge, he should be saying, why did Biden allow these criminals in our country?
(END TAPE)
KRISTEN WELKER:
Meanwhile across the country, elected officials are feeling the heat from voters over Elon Musk's efforts to slash federal government agencies.
(BEGIN TAPE)
IOWA RESIDENT:
We have sent you to Congress for decades. We expect you to follow through on what we Iowans really want our government to do and not to be - have a federal government that is being dismantled by this President Trump and - and Elon Musk. Please, stand up for what's right and do your job.
(END TAPE)
KRISTEN WELKER:
After his election, then President-elect Trump told NBC News, quote, "We're not touching social security." but now, after several comments from Elon Musk.
(BEGIN TAPE)
ELON MUSK:
Social security is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time.
(END TAPE)
KRISTEN WELKER:
Some of President Trump's allies on Wall Street, in corporate America and in Congress, are questioning whether the billionaire should continue to do so many media interviews, four sources familiar with the matter tell NBC News. Trump allies have called and conveyed to Mr. Trump and the White House that Musk either has to be taken off air or needs to be more scripted. White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt responded, defending Musk and telling NBC News: “Any American receiving social security benefits will continue to receive them. The sole mission of DOGE is to identify waste, fraud, and abuse only." The political landscape is also challenging for Democrats who are struggling to find a message to counter President Trump. Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer is now facing some of that frustration from members of his own party after siding with Republicans on the government funding bill.
(BEGIN TAPE)
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
I myself don’t do - give away anything for nothing, and I think that’s what happened the other day
REP. GLENN IVEY:
I was deeply disappointed that Senator Schumer voted with the Republicans. You know you're on bad ground when - when you get a - a personal tweet from Donald Trump thanking you for your vote.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO CORTEZ:
This isn't just about Republicans either. We need a Democratic Party that fights harder for us too.
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET:
Let me just say it's important for people to know, you know, when it's time to - to go.
(END TAPE)
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Thursday, I spoke with Leader Schumer, author of the new book, "Anti-semitism in America: A Warning." Senator Schumer, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Good morning, Kristen. Glad to be back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's wonderful to have you. We are going to talk about your book, “Antisemitism in America: A Warning,” in just a moment. I do want to start with some news topics, this back and forth between President Trump and the judiciary. This week, the president called to impeach a judge who ruled against him on deportations of alleged Venezuelan gang members, as you know. Supreme Court Justice John Roberts released a rare statement, rebuking the idea of using impeachment to settle judicial disagreements. Some constitutional scholars and fellow Democrats, Leader Schumer, say this is a constitutional crisis. Do you agree? Is the United States in a constitutional crisis?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Yes, I do, Kristen. And democracy is at risk. Look, Donald Trump is a lawless, angry man. He thinks he should be king. He thinks he should do whatever he wants, regardless of the law, and he thinks judges should just listen to him. Now we have to fight that back in every single way. And we actually have had over 100 cases in the courts where we've had a very good record of success. So Donald Trump, infuriated by that success, said judges should be impeached. Let me tell – Donald Trump and the American people, Democrats in the Senate will not impeach judges. Full stop.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump said he would not defy a court order. Do you agree – do you believe him?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
I don't trust him. We have to watch him like a hawk. Defying court orders is why our democracy is at risk and we'll have to do everything to fight back in that regard.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, I'm curious to know what that looks like, because in a recent interview, you said “Democrats will have to take extraordinary action if President Trump defies the courts.” Leader Schumer, can you be specific with me? What exactly is extraordinary action?
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER:
Look, this is an extraordinary moment. It does require extraordinary action. If he defies the Supreme Court, then we are in uncharted territory that we haven't been in for a very long time, and our entire democracy, this whole beautiful enterprise of democracy that we've had for over 240 years, is at risk. And look, I believe that if Donald Trump should defy the courts, public – the public will rise up. We will ri – Democrats will fight it in every single way. And I believe, you know, autocrats only succeed, Kristen, if the public lets them. But if the public is so, so angry and takes action, and certainly we Democrats will, it will trigger a mass movement from one end of the country to the other, something that we haven't seen in a very long time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, I do want to move to some of the discussions on Capitol Hill. Because of your decision, Leader Schumer last week, to clear the way to pass a Republican funding bill and avoid a government shutdown, you have faced calls from outside groups, even members of your own party, to step aside as minority leader. When asked about your future at a town hall, Senator Michael Bennet said, quote, "It's important for people to know when it's time to go." Leader Schumer, are you feeling pressure to step down?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Look, I'm not stepping down. And let me just say this, Kristen. I knew when I cast my vote against the C – against the government shutdown that it would be – that there would be a lot of controversy. And there was. But let me tell you and your audience why I did it, why I felt it was so important. The CR was certainly bad, you know, the continuing resolution. But a shutdown would be 15 or 20 times worse. Under a shutdown, the Executive Branch has sole power to determine what is, quote, "essential." And they can determine without any court supervision. The courts have ruled it's solely up to the executive what to shut down. With Musk, and DOGE, and Trump, and this guy Vought, V-O-G-H-T (SIC) I think is how you spell his name, as the head OMB, they would eviscerate the federal government. On day two, they could say, "Oh, SNAP? Feeding hungry children? Not essential." On day four, "Mass transit? All transit? Aid to the states? Not essential. We're cutting it." On day six, "Medicaid? We'll cut that by 20%, 30%, 50%, 80%. We'll go after Social Security. We'll go after the veterans." Their goal is to just eviscerate the federal government so they can give more taxes, and their tax cuts, to the billion – to their billionaire class over there. And so it would devastating. And here’s what makes – one more thing. Here's what makes it worse. There's no off-ramp. Who determines how long the shutdown would last? Only those evil people at the top of the Executive Branch in the Trump administration. And one senator, Republican, told a Democratic senator, a colleague of mine, and this guy is close, this Republican senator is close to the DOGE Musk people. They would keep the government shut down for six months, nine months, a year, until everyone was furloughed and gone and quit. And there'd be no way to stop it. So I thought that would be so devastating to the republic and anger so many people, that we actually went forward with the shutdown, which would have even worse consequences than the CR. It was a vote of principle, you know? Sometimes when you're a leader, you have to do things to avoid a real danger that might come down the curve. And I did it out of pure conviction as to what a leader should do and what the right thing for America and my party was. People disagree.
KRISTEN WELKER:
To that point – yeah. To that point, I mean, some Democrats are saying they want leadership to show more fight in this moment. They think that's what's required. You were, of course, instrumental in urging President Biden to drop out of the 2024 race when he himself wasn't convinced. I've had conversations with Democrats, Leader Schumer, who say this moment feels very similar. Are you making the same mistake that President Biden did?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
No, absolutely not. I did this out of conviction. And, look, in my caucus, we have a disagreement as to, you know, some people voted one way, some people voted the other. But we've all agreed to respect each other because each side saw why the other side felt so strongly about it. And our caucus is united in fighting Donald Trump every step of the way. Our goal, our plan, which we're united on, is to make Donald Trump the quickest lame duck in modern history by showing how bad his policies are. He represents the oligarchs, as I said. He's hurting average people in every way. And we are – through oversight hearings, we're exposing what he's doing, through the courts, which I mentioned, we've had some real success in, through legislation, and through organizing in all the districts throughout the country so that I believe, that when -- because the Republicans are already nervous. You know, a lot of them said, "Don't hold town hall meetings." I believe by 2026 the Republicans in the House and Senate will feel like they're rats on a sinking ship because we have so gone after Trump and all the horrible things he's doing. And they will know it, see it, hate it, and act on it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about something Former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said on Tuesday about your decision. She said, quote, "I myself don't give away anything for nothing. And I think that's what happened the other day." Do you acknowledge that Democrats didn't get anything in this fight, Leader Schumer?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Well, what we got, at the end of the day, is avoiding the horror of a shutdown. There was no leverage point that we could've -- we could've asked for things, they just would've said no. And because they control -- let's not forget, they control the House and Senate. They could force a vote, yes or no on the CR, without any additions. Patty Murray tried very hard to get them to add things and they said no. And, because of the rules of the Senate, they could force a vote, yes or no. It was a difficult vote. We talked about it in caucus a lot. And I voted because I thought, you know when you -- I say to people, "When you're on that political mountain, the higher up you climb, the more fiercely the winds blow." And the only way you stop being blown off the mountain is your internal gyroscope. My internal gyroscope said, "Regardless, regardless of the fact that some people would not like it, which I knew, that I had to do the right thing for the country and for our party."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just very quickly, Leader Schumer, because I want to get to your book, I want to play a moment of you --
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Yes. Yes, I'd like that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– a protest from last month, other Democrats protesting Elon Musk's DOGE cuts. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
I am going to stand with you in this fight. And we will win.
REP. MAXINE WATERS:
We will win.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
We will win. We will win. We will win.
[‘END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Schumer, what do you say to members of your own party who feel like that type of resistance is not meeting the enormity of this moment, this political fight that's required?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Well, I said, you know, that was one day and one line. And – but we are fighting in every way, in the courts, in oversight, in legislation, in organizing. And we're united. Hakeem and I are united. Our caucuses are united in moving forward on that way. And I think, if we fight, fight, fight, fight, as I said, we can make Donald Trump the quickest lame duck in recent history. His Republican colleagues will want to abandon him, and we'll do very, very well in the 2026 election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let's talk about your book, again, “Antisemitism in America: A Warning.” Leader Schumer, I read it. You talk about the rise of antisemitism here in the United States and globally, particularly after October 7th. I thought it was very notable that you talk about the fact that, on a very personal level, you have received antisemitic attacks, including online. You even talk about the concern that you have that your grandson could one day find that hateful content. Do you ever personally feel afraid for you and your family, Leader Schumer?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Well, I don't feel afraid for myself. You know, I'm from Brooklyn. Grew up in a tough neighborhood. What can I tell you? But I just worry about the effect, because once antisemitism is not rebutted, history has shown, 5,000 years of history, that it can metastasize into something even worse. It hasn't done that yet here, although there’s – there have been many terrible things. Directly antisemitic things, a Jewish bakery, a stone is thrown through its window because, quote, "It's a Zionist bakery." The leader of the Brooklyn Museum, who is Jewish, lives near my house, her home I believe was smeared in red paint simply because she was Jewish. She had nothing to do with Israel. And I wrote this book – can I explain a minute why I wrote this book?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Please.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
I felt I had to do something. I gave speeches on the floor about antisemitism, but I had to do more. And here's why. We Jews, Jewish people in America, had what we call the "Golden Medina," the golden age from 1950 to 2000. First, all of America was advancing. My family, from poor, into the middle class, and so many others of every different ethnicity. But antisemitism actually just receded dramatically because the shadow of the Holocaust and the horrors of the Holocaust were hanging over America like a curtain. So Jews who wouldn't be allowed to live in certain neighborhoods were allowed. So Jews were admitted to different firms and professions, which they were discriminated against in. And it was a great time. In 2000, it began to change. Whenever there's trouble, it begins to change. We had 9/11. You had all those conspiracy theories that the Jews knew about it and evacuated the towers. 2008, the financial crisis, the international Jewish conspiracy did it. But it really just jumped up dramatically and horribly after October six – 7th. So I'm writing this book actually, I felt impelled to do it at five – for five audi – aimed at five audiences. One's my generation. Why are we going through this? And I wanted to show that me, I'm the highest elected Jewish – highest Jewish elected official in America, is feeling the same kind of worry that they are. Second, to their children. Their children are basically, the Jewish people's children, are pro-Israel, pro-Jewish, but they don't know the history of how Israel struggled, how the Jewish people struggled. Third, I'm aiming it at Christians of good will. They understand antisemitism is bad, but they sometimes say to themselves, "Hey, why are they making such a fuss over this?" Well, we have 5,000 years of history on our backs. And, as I said, it can metastasize. Third, I aimed it at both the hard right, and we've seen how viciously antisemitic they could be, but also at the hard left. I felt, as a progressive, I could talk to them about how some of their anti-Israel activity -- I might disagree with it, but they're certainly entitled to do it, and it is not antisemitic, has been sliding over into direct antisemitism. And fifth, Kristen, I would like all of America to read this. So I hope it will be reading in colleges and in high schools to learn, teach people the history. You know, of people under I think it is 25, 20% because the Holocaust was a fake. And another 50% don't even know about. I believe the best antidote to anti, antisemitism is education. And that's what this book does. And I think it does it in a sort of non-professorial, friendly -- not friendly, but you know, engaging way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it does. And, look, you are the highest ranking Jewish elected official ever in the United States. Leader Schumer –
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– do you think you will see a Jewish president in your lifetime?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
I think that's possible. I do. America in general, you know is, we're a beautiful people. You – glass ceilings are broken every day. So I hope -- we've seen an African American president. I hope one day we see a woman president. Would be nice to have a Jewish president too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. The book is “Antisemitism in America: A Warning.” Leader Schumer, thank you so much. It's an important read. Thank you for being here today. We really appreciate it.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER: And when we come back, Republican Senator John Curtis of Utah, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Republican Senator John Curtis of Utah. Senator Curtis, welcome to Meet the Press.
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
It's great to be here with you and in person.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is wonderful to have you here in person. We really appreciate it. I do want to start off by talking about this back and forth between President Trump and the judiciary. He said the federal judge who disagreed with him on his deportation order should be impeached. The chief justice of the Supreme Court, John Roberts, made an uncharacteristic comment, saying, quote, “Impeachment is not an appropriate response to a judicial decision.” Do you believe this judge should be impeached, Senator?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Well, first of all, let me say, I hope every high school civics teacher and every high school student is paying attention, because we're having a lesson in civics. It's not crisis, it's civics. And our founders created a system where there was – there were these tugs and pulls between the three branches, and it's messy sometimes, but that's the beauty of the Constitution. And you know, you can talk impeachment and you can throw it out there, that's, that's what you can do. But the reality of it is, it takes two-thirds of the Senate to impeach. We know that's not going to happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think it's appropriate for President Trump to be talking about impeachment in the context of this federal judge?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
So listen, I would never be the one to say to the President what he can say, what he can't say. I'm going to tell you, if it were me, I probably wouldn’t be poking the people that are going to make decisions about me, but that's me, and the president is going to do what the president does.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just to button this up, I mean, you heard Leader Schumer say he thinks this is a constitutional crisis. It sounds like you wouldn't go that far.
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Well, listen, it's easy to throw out. And by the way, when everything is a crisis, nothing is a crisis. President Trump has been very clear multiple times he will obey court orders. So I - I don't see the crisis. And like I said, I see the civics lesson. Like, people need to be watching this and say, this is - this is actually what our founders intended - this - intended. This - this tension right, between the three different branches. And Congress has our role in this, and - and you could fairly say we need to do more, and I'm with you, right? I think a lot of this opens up for the president when we don't do our job.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you confident that the president – that the Trump administration's actions here, in this specific case, are legal?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
When you say specific case, you're referring to the – the flights?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, the flights. The deportation flights to El Salvador --
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yeah, you know, like you, I'm watching all this, I'm trying to gather information. I'm not a lawyer, so let's let this play out. And I think that's the beauty of the courts is – is having confidence that it will play out and we'll get to the right answer.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about one of the other big issues: DOGE, these attempts by President Trump and Elon Musk to cut the government. Republican lawmakers, as you know, are facing backlash at town halls across the country. We saw that play out in your home state just this week. I want to show our viewers a little bit, get your reaction on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. MIKE KENNEDY:
I’m trying to answer the question, but when it comes to Medicaid – [OVERTALK]
CROWD: But you’re lying to us!
CROWD: Grow a backbone!
CROWD: Tell the truth!
KENNEDY: I’m very invested in making sure that program works.
REP. MIKE KENNEDY:
– I’m very invested in making sure that program works.
REP. CELESTE MALOY:
So, what are we doing to make sure DOGE doesn’t do anything illegal? We’re holding the purse strings.
CROWD:
No, you’re not!
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, are you comfortable with Elon Musk making cuts to the federal government, something that is constitutionally the job of Congress?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Well, first of all, can we talk about the town hall meetings? And I – first, shout-out to these two members and the other members who are doing it. I think one of our fundamental responsibilities as elected officials is accessibility. And last week, I drove 1,000 miles in my truck and I saw teachers, I saw elected officials, I saw students, I saw school board presidents and protesters, and talked to all of them. It basically was a week-long town hall meeting. And I think one of the things we're not talking about is this stereotype of what a town hall meeting is. I've done over 400 town halls in my seven years in Congress, and I've learned that the stereotypical town hall may not be the best way to communicate with your constituents. I've changed my town hall format. I actually say a few remarks, and then we break into groups and I take five minute interviews with constituents. As long as they will wait, I've gone as long as two hours doing these five minute interviews, and they love it, and that's the accessibility they're longing for.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And part of that accessibility, though, and what we're seeing is this outrage that it's Elon Musk, at the forefront of these cuts, they say that is Congress's job. What say you, senator? Should this be the job of Congress? Do you have the oversight responsibility for these cuts?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yeah. First of all, let's acknowledge that their – their anger and their fear is real, right? And I think that's what I learned going down around the state last week. But I think it's this false narrative that somehow somebody can't get involved that’s not an elected official or just because they're a billionaire, they're a bad person, right? President Trump can consult anybody he wants to. Elon Musk is not making any cuts. He's only suggesting the cuts, and then President Trump is making the cuts.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, because Elon Musk ruffled some feathers when he referred to Social Security, something that he's also eyeing as a part of his DOGE efforts, as a Ponzi scheme. Senator, do you see Social Security as a Ponzi scheme?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Well, I wouldn't use those words, but we're not being honest either with people, and that's why you'll actually see me in a couple of months, introduce a change to Social Security. We're not being honest when we look people in the eye and say we're not going to touch it. If we don't touch it, it touches itself. You know that, right? That's not being honest with the American people. And I think that's one of the things that makes them not trust us when we say something that they just know is not true.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you're absolutely right. I mean, there's broad agreement that entitlements are not solvent in the long run, but the question is, what to do about it? And about one in eight of your constituents actually receive Social Security benefits. Roughly the same number are on Medicare. And I think the question is, and the concern is, are these folks going to lose coverage? So –
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
–can you sitting here today–
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yes. Look–
KRISTEN WELKER:
–guarantee your constituents – they won't lose coverage? They won't be subject to deep cuts to social security?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS:
Let let let me look them all in the eyes symbolically right now: we don't need to impact the people that are in Social Security, but if we don't have a conversation about my kids, our - our 20-year-olds, our 30-year-olds, that's where the problem is. And so, we can't be afraid of this conversation simply because people think we're going to take it away from them. We all need to say, “Look, those in retirement and those near retirement, we're not going to touch it. You're safe.” But let's have that conversation, because my kids don't think they're going to get it. So why can't we have a conversation with them about moving some of the variables around? And the sooner we do it, the less dramatic it has to be. If we don't do it, we have worse decisions thrust upon us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, continues to be one of the greatest challenges of our time. Your predecessor, Senator Mitt Romney, I don't have to tell you, he was known for breaking with President Trump. You've actually expressed disagreements–
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS:
Sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
with President Trump on a range of different topics. Whether we're talking about Ukraine or tariffs. I wonder, are you publicly comfortable voicing your disagreements with President Trump in this second administration?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Look, if President Trump were sitting right here today, this is what I'd say: "I want you to be wildly successful. People in Utah want the border fixed. People in Utah want inflation to come down. People in Utah want peace abroad. I'm going to be wind at your back, Mr. President. But that doesn't mean we're always going to see things the same way. And when we’re – and when we see things differently, I'm going to speak up. And it will be respectful. But I do have a mind of my own. I was elected to represent my constituents, and they have things that are important to them. And it's a false narrative to say we're always going to see things 100% the same way."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Two months in, are you comfortable with everything you've seen so far or is there one area of real disagreement that you have?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Well, listen, I think, I mean, everybody is uncomfortable in the United States right now. And that's why we're seeing the protests, right? And that – in my drive around the state, I mentioned I went 1,000 miles, you know, I've got people — and it was mostly rural Utah, and they're uncomfortable too, because of what's happening at the border, what's happening with inflation, and and all of us – this is all hands on deck for all of us to solve these problems.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, can you name one area where you disagree with President Trump? What about his tariff policy? Do you have concerns?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yeah. So listen, of course I have concerns, but he campaigned on tariffs. Nobody should be surprised that he's doing tariffs. He told us he was going to do that and that's what he's doing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Steve Bannon this week made some headlines saying that he's working on a plan to allow President Trump to run for a third term. Is there any scenario where you would support a third term for President Trump, which is not legal under the Constitution?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yeah, I wouldn't have supported a third term for George Washington.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So that's a no?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
That’s a no, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Senator, thank you so much --
SEN. JOHN CURTIS:
Yeah, let's do it again. Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Please come back soon. Senator Curtis, we really appreciate it. Thank you. When we come back, is the Trump administration defying the courts? What's next in the multiple escalating legal fights? The panel's next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson, anchor of the Sunday edition of NBC Nightly News; NBC News White House Correspondent Yamiche Alcindor; Adrienne Elrod, former Senior Advisor and Spokesperson for the Harris campaign; and Stephen Hayes, Editor and CEO of The Dispatch. Thanks to all of you for being here. A lot of ground to cover. Hallie, let's start off by talking about this big back and forth between President Trump and the courts. There's so much at stake here. But if you zoom out, part of what we are seeing is the president really try to test the bounds of executive authority. How do you -
HALLIE JACKSON:
He’s been pushing -
KRISTEN WELKER:
- see it -
HALLIE JACKSON:
- he’s been pushing -
KRISTEN WELKER:
and what do sources say?
HALLIE JACKSON:
And he's been pushing. What's interesting to me to hear Senator Curtis say, "You know, if it were me, I wouldn't like be poking the bear quite so much." I will tell you that based on my conversations with sources outside the White House but close to the president, I heard something very interesting over this weekend as I was making calls. Senator Schumer called what's happening a constitutional crisis to you. I heard that language from those inside the Trump orbit in the other direction, meaning what the judges are doing they see as a constitutional crisis --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
HALLIE JACKSON:
-- in pushing back on what the president is trying to implement here. Now, obviously, you know, fact check, the Constitution does delineate, obviously, these three branches of government. The judiciary has a role. But there is a really strong, I think, push to try to fight back. In other words, don't expect these attacks to go away anytime soon coming from President Trump. He is - It is something that he really deeply is aggrieved by.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So Yamiche, what Hallie's saying is fascinating. Could be a little bit of a preview of the fight that we could see this week as we continue to watch what happens in the courts.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
That's right. And I think what Hallie said is right in that President Trump feels like this is a lane that he's having success in. That he can keep attacking the courts and that he has the sort of political wind at his back to do this. I also have been talking to some Democrats about the language here. And I - it's interesting to hear Senator Schumer, Leader Schumer, talk about a Constitutional crisis there. There are some Democrats who of course agree with him and - and are really worried by these attacks. You think of the chief justice of the Supreme Court saying in that extraordinary statement that the right way to do this is through the appellate process and not through impeaching judges. But I also have been talking to some Democrats, younger Democrats, who are worried that if Democrats are saying it's a Constitutional crisis now, if President Trump moves to impeach Supreme Court justices, if he pushes back in- in some other way that is even worse than what - what they're seeing now, that this language could become a little too - a little too hard to navigate, and that there wouldn't be language to ratchet it up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Adrienne, what about that point? Could this language around Constitutional crisis be getting ahead of the curve and basically giving away some key cards too early in the fight?
ADRIENNE ELROD:
Well, exactly. And I think Yamiche is exactly right. I think we have to be very careful when we use this type of language. You could certainly make the argument, especially when Trump defied the courts on the movement of illegal aliens, you could make the argument that he is - he is defying the courts. And - and that could lead us into a Constitutional crisis. But I don't think that we're there yet, and we have to be extremely careful how we use this language. But if we get to that point, we need to see Senate Republicans stepping up. We need to see CEOs in America stepping up. It needs to be an all-hands-on-deck moment. We are just at the very beginning of his presidency for the second term. We’re just - we just have to be very careful in terms of how we message it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's a really fascinating divide that we're seeing, because Leader Schumer clearly wanted to lean into that. Stephen, how far do you think this president will go to test the limits of his power? How do you see this playing out?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Pretty far. I mean, look, you have to look at this in context. I think the way that you framed it in your question to Hallie is exactly the right way to think about it. This isn’t - You can't just look at this in isolation with the courts. But you look at - this is a broad attempt to consolidate power in the executive. You look at what the president has done on tariffs, with Congress agreeing to cede power to the president and not being willing to - to bring it back. You look at what he's doing with spending and with what he's doing on DOGE. You look at the way that the - the White House handled nominations approaching Republican senators, as if he were somehow entitled to his cabinet nominees. This is a president who wants strong executive power. I think, you know, I think it'll be hard for the White House to flip the script and to make that opposite argument, in part because you have people, conservatives, conservative legal scholars who have been enthusiastic about executive power in the past, particularly in the conduct of national security and foreign policy, like Andy McCarthy, like John Yoo from the Bush administration, who are saying, "Look, we think the executive has a lot of room to maneuver here, but tap the brakes a little bit."
KRISTEN WELKER:
It - it - it's one of the things that we really are going to be watching. And Yamiche, Stephen mentions DOGE. You have new reporting overnight, the fact that some of the president's allies are urging the president and the White House to either take Elon Musk off air or say, "You’ve got to have a better set of talking points if you're going to go out and be the spokesperson." Particularly as it relates to entitlements, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
That's right. My reporting and our reporting as you're sharing that byline with us this morning and doing all the other things that you're doing this morning. What - what Trump's allies and even Republican lawmakers are telling the White House and to Trump himself directly, our reporting shows, is that Elon Musk and his language is making a lot of people nervous, and when it comes to Social Security and Medicare. And it's contradicting the promises that President Trump himself are - is continuing to make. So they've been calling the White House saying, "This idea of Elon Musk getting on Joe Rogan's podcast and saying that - that - that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme is really problematic." Because there are seniors out there and see that news and say, "Wait, is he going to touch my - my Social Security?" I will say that I've talked to a number of officials who are also talking to President Trump and former top aides who say that they continue to believe, the White House has also told us, that they will not be touching Social Security, that the president will continue to keep that promise. But there are some changes, right? We know that there's this phone service that's getting pulled back where seniors can't change their bank information over the phone. That has big impacts, because if you're 84 or 85, you might not be able to get online or go to the office. And that's the sort of thing that people are also worried about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hallie, you and I covered the first Trump administration.
HALLIE JACKSON:
I remember.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And these relationships are so fascinating. How do you see this moment playing out with Trump and Musk, where Musk's approval ratings continue to drop?
HALLIE JACKSON:
That's right. And so - one of the questions that I just candidly have been asking many of my sources is, "Is it interesting to you that the president hasn't soured on Elon Musk?" Right? Because we've seen that in the past when it comes to folks who maybe fly a little too close to the sun as far as, get inside the White House or near the White House and amass some power here. That has not been the case so far for President Trump. I have heard from outside allies who suggest that what Musk is doing is a little bit distracting to what they'd like to see the president be focusing on and the White House is focusing on. But at the same time, I think there is an understanding. He's here. The president likes him. The president continues to like him. And so everybody's got to figure out how they navigate that rather than having Musk figure out how they navigate them, if that makes sense. And - and to this point, the president kind of putting Musk in a box of cabinet officials a couple weeks back, seemed to have gone a long way here.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Well, and I think we're not likely to see the end of cabinet officials who are frustrated with what Elon Musk is doing. The Republicans I'm talking to say, "This is a problem. It's a growing problem." They're able to sort of keep it under wraps right now, but it's coming.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
But the White House - White House officials did tell me that the president does like everything that he's seen Elon Musk do, that there is no daylight there. And that's something I think that’s - to underscore as you think about the way that the president's seeing this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's a fascinating relationship. We will continue to watch. Stand by, we have a lot more to discuss. When we come back, President Trump released the remaining JFK files this week. We look back at what the plot to kill the president revealed about the American government. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The Trump administration this week declassified more than 63,000 pages of documents related to the assassination of John F. Kennedy, delivering on a campaign promise. Legendary newscaster Walter Cronkite broke the news live on the air, his voice breaking as he delivered the official announcement of the president's death. Thirty-five years later, Cronkite joined Meet the Press to reflect on that unforgettable day.
[BEGIN TAPE]
WALTER CRONKITE:
That continuity was the most impressive thing about the assassination other than the tragedy of it to most governments around the world. I heard many times since then, even lately, that many people feel that the strongest feature of the American government is our smooth transition at a time of great crisis. You realize at the moment we didn't know what the plot was, perhaps, behind the death of the president. We didn't know whether that plot would be carried out against the vice president as well. We didn't know whether there was some revolutionary force that we hadn't even dreamed of that was about to come out of the woodwork, as it were. And it was a really remarkable thing, that smooth transition.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, as the Democrats struggle to find a message to push back against Trump, former President Joe Biden says he wants to step back in to help his party. More with the panel next. Stay with us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is still here. Adrienne, let me start with you and my conversation with Leader Schumer. He was defiant. He says he's not stepping down. And I guess the question is are we seeing the same type of groundswell that we saw when President Biden ultimately stepped down?
ADRIENNE ELROD:
Yeah. Look, Leader Schumer is only in trouble if somebody actually formidable wants to run against him, and I have not seen that happen yet. And it's been a hard few weeks for Democrats. There's no question about it. But look, we've got to go back on offense, Kristen. There's so much going on. We just talked about some of the dangerous policies that Trump is erecting, defying the courts, et cetera. We've got to get back on offense. The tax fight is coming up. I think that's a place where Democrats can really unite, come together, and remind the American people what we're all about as a party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, Yamiche, it's so fascinating because Leader Schumer was one of the people who convinced President Biden to essentially pass the baton to Vice President Harris and step down. He rejects the notion that there's a parallel there. But are folks seeing it that way in any context?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
The Democrats that I've been talking to are seeing this more as a generational divide than a mental facilities divide, when you think about the fact that there are all these questions about President Biden's ability to actually do the job. I haven't heard anybody questioning Leader Schumer's ability to actually do the job. It's about his vision for the party and his vision for pushing back against Trump. And younger Democrats, especially ones that are really wanting to see the Democrats really embrace the next generation of leaders, they're wanting to see more fire. They're wanting to see the tone of AOC. They're wanting to see Democrats say, "We're not giving an inch and we're not making any deals with Republicans because they aren't going to do anything but continue to make massive cuts," and continue to do things that they see as cruel, frankly.
HALLIE JACKSON:
It all folds up into this bigger umbrella of what is the Democrat strategy right now writ large, pushing back against President Trump. And I had one Democrat say to me just last night, "We may not be very competent on that front, but they are so incompetent," in this person's words. Meaning Republicans. But that message is one that I think there are a lot of Democrats who feel like they can't sell right now. And this conversation around Leader Schumer, I had somebody else say to me, listen, normal human beings kind of don't care about whether Chuck Schumer has a political – They care about what is the fight inside the Democratic Party, what is going on with Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, these sort of classic bread-and-butter issues that people care about.
STEPHEN HAYES:
But if you look at Chuck Schumer, including in his interview with you, it feels like Democrats are playing the oldies when it's Chuck Schumer. And you think about the arguments he's making. Eight of the ten elections since 2006 have been change elections. When you look at Washington, people want change. Democrats want change. Republicans want change. They're schizophrenic about what they think about the policies, but they want change. You look at Chuck Schumer and you think, "Is this change?" I heard him this week defending Joe Biden. He did push to have Joe Biden step out after the disastrous debate. But he basically went back and said, "Hey, look, I didn't have any idea that he was having declining mental faculties." That's not believable. That's not plausible. Nobody believes that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, as the party's sort of searching for its message, for its strategy, we saw Senator Sanders, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez teaming up, criss-crossing the country, basically warning of this oligarchy, join massive crowds, Adrienne. And it comes as former President Biden, and we have new reporting on this, apparently wants back into the fight. He wants to help the Democratic Party revive itself. What's your reaction? What do you think the reaction will be in the party? Do you think that can help in this moment?
ADRIENNE ELROD:
Well, look, President Biden had a very historically successful administration. There's no question about that. And there are probably some candidates out there running for office who would like to have a run alongside them. That is for them to decide. But the bottom line is this is an all-hands-on-deck moment. We need people like President Biden, President Obama, President Clinton, all the former Democratic living presidents to be involved in some way, shape, or form. But this is also about the future of our party, Kristen. And I think you can play it both ways, where you need the leaders of our party who have been former presidents to be involved in this moment, and to step out, and to really let their voices be heard. But at the same time, we've got to really focus on the future, and that is certainly where I think a lot of my colleagues in the Democratic Party are at.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Speaking of that, Hallie, President Trump was asked, "How did you feel about Biden getting back into the ring?" He said great. I mean, it's very fraught because here we are two months into the Trump administration, and Adrienne's talking about the future of the Democratic Party.
HALLIE JACKSON:
That's right. And that is a huge question. Who is next? It's not just what is next, it is who is next. Well, right now I think there are many Democrats, and we see it. And you played those town hall clips, and I thought that was really illuminating with Senator Curtis there because you were seeing it over and over again in these town halls. Not just from Republicans, but with Democrats. And people in one instance shouting down the Democratic member of Congress saying, "What are you doing now?" There's a lot of discussion, I think, inside the Democratic apparatus on what is next. But I think there is a real hunger from voters that we have seen play out this past recess week of, "Well, what are you doing tomorrow on month two and four days of the Trump administration?" That's what they want to know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And people are wondering, Yamiche, is what we're seeing at these town halls, are we seeing a little mini tea party start to form?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
I think what we're seeing at the town halls is a real example of the frustration that so many Americans are feeling, Democrats and Republicans. I spent all day outside the Department of Education the day that the president signed that executive order saying that he wanted to close down the Department of Education. And what I saw and what I took away from that day was so many workers who were coming in, including people who were retiring, who were told that they couldn't even go into the building to get their stuff. These are people who did what Elon Musk wanted them to do. Took the deal to say, "I'm going to leave." And they weren't allowed to get their office plants out of their cubicles. And I think that that's the sort of frustration that we're seeing boil over in town halls. People are feeling like not only are people sad about the changes and the cuts, but they're also feeling like there's an actual embarrassment and actual shame and an actual cruelty that's being played out. And I think that's what we're seeing a lot of.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Stephen, final 30 seconds. Against this backdrop there's all this discussion about a possible third term. Are Republicans taking that seriously?
STEPHEN HAYES:
I mean, I think they'll start to now. You've heard Steve Bannon advocate for Donald Trump having a third term. It's one of these things where you don't know. It sounds ridiculous at the beginning, but the president said that he was going to challenge the election, and then he did. People didn't take it seriously, and then they had to.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, well, we'll continue to watch all of it. Great conversation, guys. Thanks so much for being here. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.