CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday. The fight over guns.
WITNESS:
There's a shooter, active shooter. Get away!
CHUCK TODD:
That mass shooting, in Boulder, Colorado. Ten dead.
WITNESS:
I don't know how to go to work and, like, see the spot where my friends died and, like, be ok.
CHUCK TODD:
Once again, familiar arguments from Democrats...
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
This is not about getting rid of the Second Amendment. It's simply about saying we need reasonable gun safety laws.
CHUCK TODD:
...and Republicans.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
What I'm not attracted to is something that doesn't work.
CHUCK TODD:
Why can't Congress pass even popular new gun safety legislation? My guests this morning, Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania and Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Plus, violence against Asian Americans.
SANDRA OH:
If you see one of our sisters and brothers in need, will you help us?
CHUCK TODD:
Asian American members of Congress meeting today with the families of the victims of the Georgia spa shootings.
REP. JUDY CHU:
We want to make sure that this is investigated as a hate crime and not just as a bad day.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to the leader of the delegation, Congresswoman Judy Chu of California. Also, voting access under assault. Georgia Republicans pass sweeping laws changing voting access that Democrats say targets black voters.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
It's un-American. It's anti-democratic. We have to resist it.
GOV. BRIAN KEMP:
We're actually expanding the right to vote in Georgia. You're not hearing that from the other side.
CHUCK TODD:
Could this be the fight that leads to the end of the filibuster? Joining me for insight and analysis are, Republican strategist Al Cardenas, NBC News Investigative and Consumer Correspondent Vicky Nguyen, New York Times White House correspondent Peter Baker and Heather McGhee of the civil rights advocacy group Color of Change. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is a special edition of Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. The satirical website "The Onion" follows a ritual whenever there's a mass shooting in this country running this headline: “No Way To Prevent This, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.” There's truth in humor, and in this case it's a dark truth. Consider March 16: Eight people, including six women of Asian descent, killed in and near Atlanta. March 17: Five shot in a drive-by shooting in Stockton, California. March 18: Eight people shot in Gresham, Oregon and New Orleans. March 20: Two killed, 17 wounded in mass shootings in Philadelphia, Dallas and Houston. Monday: 13 killed, another five wounded in Boulder, Colorado, Detroit and Cleveland. Tuesday: Two killed, six wounded in Aliceville, Alabama, and Atlanta. Friday: Six killed, 25 wounded in Chicago, Memphis, Philadelphia and Virginia Beach. Yesterday: One killed, 13 wounded in River Grove, Illinois, Chicago and Yazoo City, Mississippi. All that since the spa attacks. It was compiled by the non-profit group Gun Violence Archive, which defines a mass shooting as four or more people being shot, not including the perpetrator. After a high profile incident, U.S politicians follow their own ritual. Democrats say enough is enough, time to get an assault weapons ban passed. Republicans say enough about gun control, this is a mental health problem, and we need to protect the Second Amendment. And what happens? Nothing gets done. For a year we have been obsessed with a pandemic, and our medical system has done a brilliant job attacking that problem. But when it comes to our epidemic of gun violence, our political system has no answers.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DEIRDRE HRIPAK: Innocence is gone.
CHUCK TODD:
From Newtown ...
PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
As a country, we've been through this too many times.
CHUCK TODD:
... to Orlando ...
WITNESS:
You just heard the bang bang bang!
PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
To actively do nothing is a decision as well.
CHUCK TODD:
... to Sutherland Springs ...
SEN. JOHN CORNYN:
I personally have gotten a little tired of the statements following these tragedies. We need to do "something."
CHUCK TODD:
... to Parkland ...
WITNESS:
Oh my God!
AMY KOHLI:
We want to send a message to these politicians that they cannot allow this to continue to happen.
CHUCK TODD:
...to Las Vegas...
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We'll be talking about gun laws as time goes by.
CHUCK TODD:
... to El Paso...
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I think we can have some really meaningful background checks.
CHUCK TODD:
... to Atlanta ...
911 OPERATOR:
A white male -- what is he wearing?
911 CALLER:
I don't know. Please just come okay.
PROTESTER:
Women that look like me are constantly being attacked, we're being harassed and now we're being killed.
CHUCK TODD:
.... to Boulder ...
WITNESS:
There's a shooter, active shooter! Get away! Get back!
CHUCK TODD:
There have been 2,805 mass shootings since the Gun Violence Archive began compiling data in 2014 and they have become more frequent. When it comes to considering tighter gun laws, the response by most Republicans in Washington has been a never-ending cycle of wash-rinse-repeat.
SEN. TED CRUZ:
Unfortunately in Washington, emotion I think often leads to bad policies.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
We need to really focus on the facts before we take hard positions.
REP. PAUL RYAN:
This is not the time to jump to some conclusion not knowing the full facts.
CHUCK TODD:
In 2004, the 1994 assault weapons ban was allowed to expire. And even after a mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut left 20 first graders dead, President Obama was unable to win passage of tighter gun restrictions.
VICE PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The yays are 54, the nays are 46
PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
All in all, this was a pretty shameful day for Washington.
CHUCK TODD:
That's despite growing support for some gun restrictions. In an NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll conducted in 2019, after mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton, 89% supported expanding background checks to all gun sales and transfers. 76% supported red flag laws to help law enforcement remove guns from those posing an imminent danger to themselves or others. 75% supported a voluntary gun buyback program. 62% supported banning assault weapons. The House passed two bills this month: extending background checks to most private gun sales and lengthening the time the FBI has to complete a background check to a minimum of ten days.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The United States Senate, I hope some are listening, should immediately pass the two House-passed bills that close loopholes in the background check system.
CHUCK TODD:
61% of Americans say they want the Senate to pass the House bills. Though Republicans, whose support for gun restrictions has eroded, are evenly split.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
The legislative solutions have been perplexing and as I said I share Joe Manchin's opposition to the version that passed in the House.
CHUCK TODD:
Still, Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer promised this week to bring that bill to the floor.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
This is a different Senate, we are going to debate, and everyone's going to have to vote.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Well, joining me now is Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, who has been designated as the point person for Senate Democrats on the issue of guns. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
So, you've reportedly said you are working on the boldest legislation possible. You know the word I want to focus in on. It's the word possible. What do you believe is possible right now?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I'm not interested in getting 50 votes in the Senate. I'm interested in getting 60 votes. That's what is required to pass a piece of legislation today. And so, I've been instructed by Senator Schumer to work over the next several weeks with Democrats and willing Republicans to try to get a bill that expands background checks that can pass, that can get votes from both sides. Don't count us out. I think the politics have shifted dramatically since 2013, even since 2016, the last time that we had a vote on background checks. Remember, 2019, after El Paso and Dayton, we came very close to passing a background checks expansion proposal that President Trump actually drafted and put before the Congress. It was the Ukraine scandal that got in the way, but I've gotten a lot of calls from Republicans in the Senate who don't want to fight this fight any longer because the NRA's authority is fading, the anti-gun violence movement's impact is increasing. I think we have a chance.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I hear your, your optimism there, but you understand why there's so much skepticism. I mean, you need ten Republican votes. There have been two votes on Manchin-Toomey. Combined -- and I'm counting Pat Toomey's vote twice -- combined, you've gotten eight votes on that. And is that still the best vehicle essentially? Some form of Manchin-Toomey that can get through -- in your mind, that even is possible to find the ten Republicans?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, the Manchin-Toomey proposal was written in 2013. And if you remember, it was negotiated with the NRA, under the belief that the NRA was going to support that proposal. I don't know that we need to bring Manchin-Toomey back before the Senate. But listen, let's be honest, you are going to have to make some adjustments. You are going to have to make some reasonable accommodations if you want ten Republican votes. And I am already talking to Republicans who are not unwilling to sit down at the table. And the reason for that, Chuck, is that it's harder to win seats today if you are an A-rated NRA member of Congress. They lost a lot of those seats in 2018. And there's a reason Mitch McConnell didn't put anything like this up for a vote since 2016. He just doesn't want to have to force his members, didn’t want to have to force his members to choose between the gun lobby and 90% of their constituents.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about what compromises might -- I was intrigued by a quote we included in my opening piece there from Mitch McConnell, when he said, "I share Joe Manchin's opposition to the House bill." We know that Joe Manchin and Jon Tester, I believe, in particular, two senators from more rural states, the House version of a background check bill would -- there's some parts of private sales that they seem to be concerned with. Is the House version of this bill too broad to get 60 votes, in your opinion?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I think it's unlikely that H.R.8, as it's written today, can get 60 votes, but I don't think it has to change very much in order to get the sufficient number of votes. You are right that there's a small number of Democrats and a bunch of Republicans who may want to see the list of exempted sales expanded perhaps to include more family members. But I think it is important to listen to exactly what Mitch McConnell said, right? He said that, like Joe Manchin, he opposes the version that passed the House, not that he opposes expanded background checks. And as you know, Mitch McConnell is always very careful about what he says.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, he does.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Eight years ago, he would have said he absolutely opposed expanding background checks. Today, he's much more careful about his words because he knows there might be ten members or more of his caucus who want to support a modified version of the House bill that still is a massive expansion of the number of sales that are -- or is still a big expansion of the number of sales that are included in the background check system.
CHUCK TODD:
We've spent almost our entire time about what some would describe as a modest change in our background check system. We haven't talked about new regulations about the guns themselves, the debate, the fact that the gun that was used in Boulder is somehow called a pistol, and those things. Is actually regulating the gun itself a political impossibility right now?
SEN.CHRIS MURPHY:
I think right now our best chance to get something passed is universal background checks. And I think that the theory of the case is that once we convince Republicans that the sky doesn't fall for you politically when you support a reasonable expansion of something like background checks, you can move on to other interventions. But yeah, we should be having a broader conversation right now because, you know, in Connecticut, it's not just universal background checks that protects our citizens. We require you to get a permit before you buy a pistol, something that had it been in effect in these states, might have prevented one of the shooters from getting a gun. We include all assaults, not just felony assaults, on the prohibited list of purchasers for firearms. That likely would have stopped the shooter in Colorado from being able to get a weapon. So, it's not just background checks. There's a whole host of other interventions that lead to states like Connecticut having much lower rates of gun crime than other states.
CHUCK TODD:
One of the, I think, bigger impediments that you may have is the courts. And I hear this all the time -- “Oh, I --” you know -- from various members of the Senate, "I'd like to introduce X, but the courts will strike this down." There has been sort of, some might call a radical altering or interpretation of the Second Amendment over the last 30 years. How much does that make it that much harder to even pass any gun legislation if the Second Amendment is considered a civil right?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I think it's a worry. Part of the reason that many of us were strongly in opposition to nominees like Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett is because they likely hold this radical interpretation of the Second Amendment. I do think that restrictions on assault weapons are in jeopardy with this Supreme Court. I don't think that expanded background checks are a problem. As I read some of the more radical decisions that have been made by people like Amy Coney Barrett at the lower court level, I still believe that Scalia's opinion, in which he says the Second Amendment certainly allows for you to stop criminals or people with serious mental illness from getting guns, I don't think that's in jeopardy of being overturned by the Court.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this the issue that could break the filibuster?
SEN.CHRIS MURPHY:
I think that Republicans have to argue, as a means of defending the current rules, that the Senate can still work under the 60-vote requirement. I think Republicans may be looking for issues to prove that Democrats don't need to obliterate the filibuster. Here's their opportunity, an issue which has 90% support, which doesn't require them to shift their position, their current position to a herculean level. They can help us pass an expansion of background checks and prove to Democrats and the country that the Senate can work at a 60-vote threshold.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Chris Murphy, the point man for Senate Democrats on the gun issue. Senator Murphy, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thanks.
CHUCK TODD:
And so, we're going to talk. Senators Pat Toomey and Joe Manchin, a Republican and a Democrat, they co-sponsored a bill to expand background checks that was defeated twice, as you heard us talk about, both in 2013 and 2015. It is an indication of just how difficult it is even to pass gun safety bills that the public supports. And Senator Toomey joins me now. Senator, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
So, I don’t want to -- my title is moderator, but I'd also like to be mediator here. I heard Senator Murphy seem to indicate a lot of movement here on this and some optimism that 10 Republicans would be found. You yourself have expressed some optimism that you think there are nine other Republican colleagues of yours. I'm curious, Senator Murphy's last comment there, which I'm sure you heard, that this could be a way to sort of -- sort of stop this filibuster talk and prove that, “Hey, you know what? It isn't the impediment that people think it is.” Is that helpful in your efforts to find nine Republicans?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Well, Chuck, I've got a lot of respect for Senator Murphy, but I have to say I take a different look at this. Some of our Democratic colleagues are simply making a shameful attempt to really ruin what remains of the functioning of the Senate, and it'll do long-term damage to the country. You know, two years ago, the Democrats pretty much universally supported keeping the filibuster. Barack Obama was in favor of the filibuster. Now, when the different party is in control, suddenly it's become a racist tool? How ridiculous. The fact is the bill that passed the House -- that doesn't even have 50 votes in the Senate. Joe Manchin is on record opposing that. So, there are not even 50 votes. You could get rid of the filibuster tomorrow and you still couldn't pass that bill. So, what we need to do is try to find a place where we can land, a place where there's some common ground. I have long believed, as I've told you many times, the place where we ought to be able to get that done is requiring background checks on commercial sales. That's where I know Senator Manchin is. And there are Republican senators who are interested, not because it's some bank shot to prevent the Democrats from abusing their power with respect to the filibuster, but because there is some substantive support.
CHUCK TODD:
Is your issue with the House bill, and I know Senators Manchin and Tester, do you have -- do you share their same concerns on this issue of private sales? Or do you think there is a way to include some form of a background check in that, too?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
You know, there are, there are different mechanisms, there's new technology that makes these various mechanisms possible that weren't possible before. You're not going to get to 60 votes with legislation that requires a -- when a father wants to sell his gun to his son to have to get a background check. So, I still think the best way to do this is focus on commercial sales. You know, between the sales that already occur at licensed firearm dealers, all of which require a background check, and what we consider commercial sales, advertised sales, gun shows and on the internet, that covers the vast, vast majority of all transactions. And it would be progress if we had background checks for those categories.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe we have too many guns circulating in America? And if you do, what is a solution to that problem?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
No, I don't think the answer is too many guns, Chuck. If I have four or five guns and I buy two more, did America become a more dangerous place? I don't think so. I'm not a dangerous person. My focus has always been make it more difficult for people that we all agree shouldn't have firearms, make it more difficult for them to get firearms. That is violent criminals, the dangerously mentally ill. That's what we should focus on and trying to understand what drives the madness that we've seen again recently and all so often that leads to these horrific mass killings. You know, whether a law-abiding citizen owns three guns or four, that has absolutely no impact on anybody's safety.
CHUCK TODD:
So, it really is, in your mind, the background check. Is this something you think that can be done quickly or should the FBI be given eight to ten days, if necessary? We know that sometimes the need for speed has actually become a problem in these gun sales.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
That's -- that’s extremely rare, but it does happen. Look, I think we need to have a mechanism that allows this to happen very quickly. It is possible, there are some circumstances, where a person may decide they need a firearm and they need it in a hurry. They might have a completely legitimate need for that, so I would like to see us improve the mechanism so that we don't have these delays.
CHUCK TODD:
I guess I go back to the “too many guns.” I understand what you're saying on an individual, but when you look at our numbers compared to the rest of the world, you know, why do you think we lead by a factor of ten and then some when it comes to just the number of weapons circulating in this country?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
For -- there's a whole variety of reasons, Chuck, but I don't think that that's what causes the violence. There are communities that are, have horrific levels of violence every day. There is criminality and using weapons is part of that. Look, that’s -- we ought to be asking ourselves why do we have high levels of crime generally.
CHUCK TODD:
One last question. I want to ask you about the voting rights issue, but I want to play a statement from your colleague on the Democratic side of the aisle, Raphael Warnock. Here's what he had to say about voting rights.
[START TAPE]
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
We wouldn't have to have this debate about the filibuster, at least on this issue, if the folks on the other side would do the right thing and stand for voting rights.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I want to separate out H.R.1 from the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. Do you believe there is enough -- there are 10 Republicans to do an updated version of the Voting Rights Act, something that used to be fairly easy to get done in a bipartisan way? I know the issues with H.R.1, and I'm trying to separate the two. Where are you on this?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
So, I haven't drilled down on this distinction that you're making. The Democrats have been driving this message on H.R.1, and I think we ought to be asking our Democratic colleagues why are they so insistent that we not have any mechanism to verify that a person seeking to vote is, in fact, the person that they say they are? Why are they so insistent that people ought to be able to go ballot harvesting, maybe go through a nursing home and get a couple of hundred ballots that just happen to be whatever they are? I mean, the, there is a completely false narrative about so-called voter suppression. You look at the Georgia law, there's no voter suppression. Sunday voting is still allowed, there's an expansion of in-person voting, there's no requirement that you have a reason for a mail-in ballot. All you need is some, some verification of ID, and so does every Department of Transportation in America in order to drive. So does every airline if you're going to get on a plane. So, this has been a false narrative entirely, Chuck, and I'm afraid it's all about trying to get rid of the filibuster. We're not going to be cowed by being called racists over a policy that has nothing to do with race.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand your point of view there. I'm just curious, though, do you think it's a good look for the party that after a presidential loss, after the former candidate basically creates a false narrative and lies about why it happened, that these laws -- that these laws are getting changed under a false pretense? That's not a good look for the Republican party, is it not?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Well, Chuck, look, I was very critical of President Trump along the way after the election, as I think you know, but we should be honest about this. We made very dramatic, sweeping changes to accommodate the circumstances of a global pandemic that had huge implications. And some of those sweeping changes include provisions that are really actually tough to verify the accuracy of the vote. And we have an awful lot of Americans who are worried about the integrity of our system. So, some common sense measures, like requiring an ID to get an absentee ballot or to vote, that just makes a lot of sense.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Pat Toomey, Republican from Pennsylvania, I always appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you, sir.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, remembering the victims of the spa attacks in Georgia. I’m going to talk to Congresswoman Judy Chu about anti-Asian American violence as our special edition on the battle over guns continues.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back to our special edition of Meet The Press focusing on gun violence. Later this morning, members of the Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus will visit the three Asian-owned spas in Georgia where a shooter killed eight people, six of whom were women of Asian descent. The March 16th attack was the most violent and deadly of the thousands of anti-Asian attacks that have occurred during the pandemic. Congresswoman Judy Chu is the chair of the caucus and she joins me now from Atlanta before she spends the day there. Congresswoman, thank you for coming on.
REP. JUDY CHU:
Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the issue of dealing with both the access to guns and this issue of rising xenophobia in America. And I want to focus specifically on the issue of hate crimes, because Georgia has a hate crimes law, but whose job is it to decide what is a hate crime? And I think that seems to be an issue that we're dealing with in, in Georgia. What say you on this issue?
REP. JUDY CHU:
Well, this is exactly the reason why we have our Congressional delegation coming down to Georgia. We are going to be tracing the steps of this shooter. We are first going to Cherokee County, where the shooter targeted this spa called Young's Asian Spa. And in fact, where only steps away, he purchased his 9mm handgun with no waiting period. Then we are going to drive the 27 miles to the two other Asian spas, which are side by side, where he was able to shoot even more people. And it becomes clear to us all three spas were Asian spas, where there was a certainty that if he shot into them, he was going to kill Asian women. And so to us, it is clear evidence that this is a hate crime, but what we are concerned about is whether local law enforcement will indeed prosecute this as a hate crime. That's why we are calling upon the Department of Justice to ensure that there are the resources necessary to provide the evidence to declare it a hate crime. And that includes interviewing witnesses in their own languages, looking at the media to see whether they are, for instance, reading the evidence in the Korean media, which apparently has some statements of that sort, and whether they are looking at the shooter's social media and history.
CHUCK TODD:
It’s, you say you want to bring the Justice -- should you have to bring the Justice Department here? Or again, I go back to what Georgia passing this hate crimes law. Should this, should this be what they're able to do? Should it not have to fall on the, on the, on the Department of Justice?
REP. JUDY CHU:
It should not have to fall on the Department of Justice, but let me tell you that our whole hate crimes system in the United States is quite flawed. Out of the 15,000 local law enforcement agencies in the United States, only 15 percent even report hate crimes to the FBI. So there's wide variation in terms of whether local law enforcement even pays attention to hate crimes, or whether they think it's worth the trouble to declare something a hate crime because they think it may be more difficult to prosecute. And in fact, we are very concerned about Cherokee County Sheriff’s statements early on, in which they said that this was a bad day, or that this person had a sex addition, addiction and therefore casting doubt as to whether this was a hate crime. And saying these statements mid-investigation, thus casting even further doubt as to whether this was a hate crime.
CHUCK TODD:
And you know, you sit there, you're, you’re poisoning the jury pool potentially when you're saying these things. I'm curious if the issue of this lack of reporting also conforms to these polling numbers I want to share with you. And this comes, on the issue of Asian American hate. 10 percent over the last year have experienced hate crimes or incidents so far. 31 percent of Asian Americans worry about being hate crime victims. 30 percent would be very comfortable reporting the hate crime. And it's that last one I want to talk to you about because of that, of the other groups measured, Asian Americans were the least comfortable reporting hate crimes. That was the biggest takeaway, that there was a lot of nervousness in the community for reporting a hate crime. How do you change that?
REP. JUDY CHU:
We need to send the message out to all our Asian American community that it's important for them to report these hate crimes, that it is safe, that it is confidential, and that in fact they can get resources from the entities like the Stop AAPI Hate website, which has taken it under his, its wing. And in fact, there are 3,800 hate crimes and incidents that have been reported since the coronavirus first started. So, that is just the tip of the iceberg, but we know that there is underreporting going on because of the fear that our Asian American community has. Nonetheless, I want to send the message out there to everybody that they need to report it and they will feel certainly less isolated if they do so.
CHUCK TODD:
One last thing I want to ask you about, and we've talked about this before. And that is the issue of -- as we, as we have an adversary in this country with China, and our political leaders speak. We know all of the damage former President Trump did with his language, but how politicians talk about the Chinese Communist Party. Your colleague Stephanie Murphy, a Democrat from Florida, said this: “We have to be able to make a very clear distinction that our adversary and competitor is the Chinese Communist Party, not the Chinese people, and certainly not the Asian Americans who live here and who have contributed so much to this country. When we attack Americans of Asian descent, we attack ourselves.” She goes on to argue that you're actually going to alienate Vietnamese and other important Asian allies of us, if this goes on. What do you say to your colleagues?
REP. JUDY CHU:
Well, there are far too many stereotypes in the United States where Asian Americans have been painted for a very long time as foreigners in their own country. So just making broad attacks against China unfortunately sweeps in many people. In fact, it actually sweeps in the people of China, many of whom may want to have greater freedoms in China. So yes, if you're talking about Chinese, you talk about the policies of the Chinese Communist Party and distinguish it from those of the people of China. And certainly, you must distinguish it from the people of America, Asian Americans who are U.S. citizens, who are legal permanent residents, and who are very very loyal to America, and many of whom have this as the only country that they know.
CHUCK TODD:
Judy Chu, Democrat from California, really appreciate you coming on. And again, you're coming from Atlanta, where you're going to spend the day retracing the steps of this killer. Congresswoman, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective.
REP. JUDY CHU:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, those new restrictive voting laws Republicans passed in Georgia that are pending in other states. Democrats are calling them the new Jim Crow. We heard strong pushback from Pat Toomey. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us. Republican strategist Al Cardenas, he's the co-founder of the Institute of Politics at Florida State University. NBC News investigative and consumer correspondent Vicky Nguyen. New York Times chief White House correspondent Peter Baker. And Heather McGhee of the civil rights advocacy group Color of Change and author of the new book The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together. Welcome, all. Vicky, I want to start with you. We're dedicating this show to the gun issue. We spent a lot of time on what happened in Atlanta with Asian American hate. And, you know, that's what happens sometimes is we, as these gun incidents happen, is that we vacillate between debating the issue of guns or debating the motive. And that is, and the fact is we've got to deal with both at the same time, which I think what happened in Atlanta underscores.
VICKY NGUYEN:
Yeah, and you heard Representative Judy Chu talking about how the shooter obtained his gun without any sort of waiting period. So that is certainly one layer that could add to perhaps a delay. Would it have prevented this shooting? Perhaps not. Maybe it would have delayed it another ten days. I think what is frustrating for many people who are looking at the nexus of gun violence and now also this potential hate crime is: When is it going to stop? When will you be able to change the way Americans view gun ownership? And that might never happen because we are a country that loves our guns. Americans make up 4.4% of the world's population but own 44% of the world's guns. That's according to a New York Times survey. So unless or until there is any sort of amendment to the Constitution that changes gun ownership, these little legislation changes that take, first of all, forever to pass, feel like pennies being dropped in the ocean. Just delaying, and delaying, and delaying. How many years has it been since Sandy Hook? What did you just tell us at the top of this show? How many shootings have we had just since Atlanta that most of us have no idea about? And let's not forget: The most gun violence that affects Americans are actually suicides, a lot of veterans taking their own lives. Access to guns is inseparable from these shootings. But what is our tolerance level as Americans?
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Heather, you write this in your book about this issue. You call it this: "America's unhealthy obsession with guns ... has always been intertwined with our history of racial violence. But in recent years, right-wing media and an increasingly radical National Rifle Association have aggressively marketed to white fear of terrorists, of home invaders, of criminal immigrants, and of ‘inner city thugs.’" It has led to the, to the expansion of these stand-your-ground laws, arguably. And I think that was another reference you were making there. As Vicky was talking, it immediately brought to mind what you wrote here. This is intertwined. How do you disaggregate?
HEATHER McGHEE:
Well, it's intertwined because, first of all, the Department of Homeland Security just said that the most persistent and lethal threat to our homeland is far-right white supremacist domestic terrorism. But it's not just those extreme cases. As you showed so well, Chuck, the majority of the American people want stricter gun laws, including many Republican voters. And yet because of the often sort of dog whistle racist campaign tactics of the now-bankrupt and on-the-run NRA and the right-wing politicians that they pay for and fund, you've got this sort of winding up and weaponizing of white fear, which keeps the majority of white voters voting for a Republican Party that does the bidding of the gun lobby. And we still aren't as safe as we could be. Effective gun safety measures keep us safe. And it's been 25 years since the federal government passed federal gun safety laws.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, there is some evidence that the politics, Al, of this is changing. I want to run a quick mash here. I mean, Democrats won swing districts in 2018 and some in 2020 on the issue of guns. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
LUCY McBATH:
I never expected to be in Congress, but then my son was murdered.
BYSTANDER:
Oh my god! Somebody’s shooting.
LUCY McBATH:
My tragedy turned to purpose.
COMMERCIAL VOICEOVER:
Gabby trusts Ann to stand up to the NRA and fight for stronger gun laws.
JASON CROW:
These are the weapons that I needed when I was fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. And now, they're tearing our communities apart.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Suburbs of Denver, Al. Suburbs of Tucson. Suburbs of Atlanta. And I know that among the few Republicans that are supportive of these gun regulations are in south Florida.
AL CARDENAS:
Yeah. Well, listen. I think politics is the art of the possible. We listened to Senators Murphy and Toomey just earlier on your show. I think the art of the possible is heading us towards universal registration. And also, I think that if you want to own an AR-15, which is the weapon used in most of our recent mass murders, I think you ought to do like get a driver's license. If you want a, if you want a license to drive an 18-wheeler, you've got to go through a process. If you want a license to own an assault weapon, you've got to go through a process. I think there are very few Republicans who can argue that. So let's let that law pass first, show some bipartisanship, and move on to the next restriction. So I don't think we can do a full wholesale gun reform. I think those are two reasonable steps.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Peter, I heard, I heard what I think Al heard too, between Murphy and Toomey, is there's a way to do this it sounds like. The question is: Is there the will to take an incremental step? Because it is, to many advocates for more gun safety, incremental.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, I think you're right, Chuck. I mean, we're arguing about background checks. And the truth is, you know, that's a fairly modest proposal compared to a lot of the things that gun control advocates would like to see. The idea of an assault weapon ban in Congress is pretty much off the table. Even President Biden essentially acknowledged that this week, this past week, during his press conference. But you're right. I mean, you would think that there's a way that the two parties could come together, something that they could both agree on. The NRA's power is in decline. They're busy fighting, you know, working on bankruptcy. But, you know, we've seen this before. As you showed in your opening, I mean, if the slaughter of 20 children at a school in Connecticut, if the slaughter of high school students in Florida didn't prompt significant change, it's hard to see whether that happens now.
CHUCK TODD:
Joe Biden very -- Peter, I want to follow with you quickly. Joe Biden seems, they seem to be focused on rolling out the infrastructure plan, you know. Does it need the president's shoulder to get even a modified version of this background check bill be voted on? Does he need to make it more front and center?
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, I think he does obviously. And what he said this week when he was asked about it, was I, you know, as Al said, the art of the possible. He suggested timing is important. And the implication was he meant that it wasn't time to devote a lot of resources to that right now. He said -- he went immediately to talking about infrastructure because that clearly is front and center on his agenda right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I'm going to pause the conversation there. It's been a busy week. We've got a lot of different issues to get to, and I'm hoping to get to some issues on the next round with you guys, including voting rights and immigration. Coming up, a kind of optimism though about the future we haven't seen for some time, believe it or not. Stick with us for that.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. After a difficult year, we're seeing something we haven't seen in a while: a little bit of optimism. Last week, Gallup released data showing the percentage of Americans satisfied with the direction of the country was at its highest point since last May, 32%. Hey, that's not great. But it's up from 11% in January, which was one of the lowest ever on record. It was bottoming out in the aftermath of the attack on the Capitol. And there are signs of positivity on the economy as well. This week marked the first time the number of initial unemployment claims dipped below 700,000, after a high of almost 7 million at the end of March 2020. The successful vaccination program plus Covid relief checks arriving in bank accounts are surely partly responsible for this uptick in basic optimism about our country's direction. There are lots of big challenges ahead for President Biden, as we've been discussing. And the goodwill generated in the early months of his administration should offer him political capital that he's going to need for those fights ahead. How will he use that capital? When we come back, Georgia and the fight over voting rights. Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. And now to the issue of voting rights. Heather McGhee, you saw at the end of my interview with Senator Toomey, he made a, sort of an impassioned defense of some of these, of some of these ideas out there about voter IDs in particular here. And I'm curious. Can you separate the ideas that maybe he's putting up with what appears to be the motive behind all of these changes at the state level? Is it, is it even possible to separate the two?
HEATHER McGHEE:
Well, this is what happens when people who can't win a fair election, try to rig the rules to make it harder for eligible citizens to vote. This is what you see happening, and it is a racist logic. It is an old tradition in this country of targeting policies that we know disproportionately impact Black and brown voters. We know that Black and brown voters, for example, are less likely to have a government-issued photo identification. And yet this is the way that systemic racism so often works today. It's also true that when you look at white Americans who are young, white Americans who are low income, one out of five of them don't have a photo ID issued by the government. And yet, are they any less eligible citizens with the right to vote? The idea of voter fraud is something that happens .00003% of our elections, and yet it is a big lie. Instead, we have the, the For the People Act that actually could address this creeping corruption in our democracy, whether it's the big flood of secret money, the partisan gerrymandering, or this desire to rig the rules so that eligible citizens can't vote. And the only way the Republicans can justify what is a bipartisan-- actually, majority of the American people support the provisions of the For the People Act. The only way the Republicans can justify opposing it and these 250 unpopular laws at the state level is with this big lie.
CHUCK TODD:
Vicky, you’re, one of your day jobs for us is as a consumer reporter. And I look at these voting laws that we've seen some of them restrict-- it’s sort of, we had, we had been sort of moving in the direction of being more pro-consumer, a little more convenience for the consumer, in this case, voter. And it is sort of in this way, it’s sort of, this is now anti-consumer or anti-voter. It-- youknow, make it harder. It's sort of antithetical to what every other sort of process we deal with in America is about.
VICKY NGUYEN:
Well, the push to online or mail voting, I should say, was huge during the pandemic. Maybe a silver lining because the turnout, the access for people. But of course it raised a lot of questions about fraud. And, look, voting is confusing. That's why NBC News launched this whole PlanYourVote.com to help walk people through. Every state, it's something different. I've lived in so many states over the past 20 years as a journalist. And there's no centralized way of registering for your ballot. Sometimes you do it at the DMV. Sometimes you've got to mail it in. It's confusing at best for someone who's tuned in and paying attention. We also know that the data shows people of color are disproportionately affected by restrictive, or changes to voter, voter access, right? The barriers are already very high. So you look at the Brennan Center, they found Black voters actually wait on average 45 minutes longer in line to vote. Latino voters, 46 minutes longer than white voters, just to cast a ballot in person. On the surface, you think, "What's wrong with having to show an ID?" We show an ID for so many things to verify who we are. But listen to Heather's point. The amount of voter fraud--
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
VICKY NGUYEN:
--used to justify the need for an ID, which is hard to get, which can cost money, which sometimes requires people to produce a birth certificate. There are all these hoops that people have to jump through. And as, as Heather pointed out, so many people support access, making it easier for the voter, making it easier for the consumer. And also, you said, Chuck, the optics on this are not good. Georgia passing 89 pages of voter reform after losing those two positions. What does that tell you about what's really at the crux of this?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, Al--
VICKY NGUYEN:
Although they did add a couple of days of weekend voting, which is good.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Right. Well, Al Cardenas, our, our home state of Florida, the governor bragged about the voting system, and yet they're changing it. Why?
AL CARDENAS:
Yeah. Well, look. These twenty-some voter reform laws being proposed in, in all of these states are all about providing cotton candy to the far-right base that believe the Donald Trump big lie about the elections being fraudulent. That's all that is. In reality, and I agree with Heather, and I agree with Vicky, but, look, most of the voter suppression takes place under the radar. For example, in Georgia, minority voters had to wait eight more times than white voters in their particular voting precincts because there are less voting machines, less employees, less people who help out in the process. Most of the voter suppression that takes place is run under the radar of laws and so forth. Yes, I agree that we need to have a revamp of the Voting Rights Act. If it was timely in the '60s, it's even more timely now. But you need to look more at voter suppression at the local level. That's where it really hits hard.
CHUCK TODD:
An important point there. Peter Baker, I want to just, in our remaining moment here, you've been in that White House, you’ve been at that White House press conference gazillions of times. There was a lot of commentary about the lack of Covid questions. Today, there’s actually, we're on an uptick in Covid cases, plus 40, 40 there. But was that really sort of a larger reminder that, that actually Covid is being managed pretty well by Joe Biden right now and the public's fairly satisfied?
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, I think, look, there probably could've been, should've been a Covid question. It's still a huge issue in this country even though things are looking better. But I think you're right to the extent that it's a sign of how we are beginning to change. Covid, of course, has come to consume that White House, this White House and the previous White House for a year now. It's been the dominant issue with only a few exceptions for more than 12 months. So you're right. The fact that now there are other issues being put to the president is a sign that we're, you know, beginning to look at things that had been put to the side for so long but are still actually real big challenges for this country, whether it be North Korea, immigration, you know, Russia and China. There are so many issues out there that didn't get looked at over the last year because we had such an extraordinary crisis going on. And now, the crisis feels like it's on a path toward at least a better place. But you're right that we probably still should be asking about it because it's not over yet.
CHUCK TODD:
I guess this is one way a return to normalcy, is we realize, "Oh my God. We've got a lot of problems we've got to face up to." And we did our best today to try to focus on one or two of them. Thank you all. Terrific panel. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. For those celebrating, happy Passover. And we'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.