KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: tariff turmoil. President Trump reverses himself, pulling back some steep tariffs on America's largest trading partners as markets plunge and fears grow a trade war will raise prices, cost jobs and slow the economy.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
There will be a little disturbance but we’re okay with that.
PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU:
This is a very dumb thing to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the White House rethinking its tariff policy? I’ll talk to Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and Steve Kornacki will show us how the economy is reacting. Plus: the opposition.
REP. AL GREEN:
You have no mandate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Democrats navigate their role as the party out of power.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
America wants change, but there’s a responsible way to make change and a reckless way. And we can make that change without forgetting who we are as a country and as a democracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the party divided over how to push back against President Trump? I'll talk to Democratic Senator Elissa Slotkin of Michigan. And: shifting alliances. After suspending military aide to Ukraine, President Trump considers backing away from NATO –
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If they don’t pay, I'm not going to defend them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– as some U.S. allies consider scaling back the intelligence they share with Washington. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Senior National Security Correspondent Courtney Kube, Jonathan Martin of Politico, Symone Sanders Townsend, former chief spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris, and Marc Short, former director of legislative affairs for President Trump. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. A battle is brewing on Capitol Hill with the government set to run out of money in just six days. It comes on the heels of a volatile week from Wall Street to main street, with confusion over President Trump's shifting tariff policy, more spending cuts and uncertainty about the economy. The president and his allies have now begun to warn that some economic pain could be ahead for Americans.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Tariffs are about making America rich again and making America great again, and it's happening, and it will happen rather quickly. There'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that. It won't be much.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Thursday, the president announced he was delaying 25% tariffs on many imports from Mexico and some from Canada for a month with concerns mounting about the potential economic impacts of a wider trade war. This after Target's CEO warned consumers would likely see price increases over the next couple days, and Best Buy's chief called price increases highly likely. Across the board tariffs on two of America's three largest trading partners have been on and then off, then on and then off again, with a whiplash effect for businesses and consumers.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
One day the tariffs are on, the next day they're off. Right now, the markets, as you know well, prefer stability. Are you done going forward with the pauses and the carveouts? Is that it for those?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
There'll always be changes and adjustments.
MARIA BARTIROMO:
CEOs want to see predictability. They say, look, I have to speak with shareholders. I've got to make plans for capex spending. I can't if it's 20% one day and then it's off for a month and it's 25%. So, can you give us a sense of whether or not we are going to get clarity for the business community?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I think so. But, you know, the tariffs could go up as time goes by, and they may go up and, you know, I don't know if it's predictability. I think –
MARIA BARTIROMO:
So that's not clarity.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Top administration officials have started to hint some economic pain may be ahead.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK
There's going to be a short period of time where there will be some higher prices on certain products. It's not inflation, that's nonsense.
SEC. STEVE BESSENT:
Could we be seeing that this economy that we inherited is starting to roll a bit? Sure. And look, there’s going to be a natural adjustment as we move away from public spending to private spending.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Meanwhile at the White House, frustrations growing behind the scenes amid reports of a contentious Cabinet meeting where secretaries, including Secretaries Rubio and Duffy, clashed with billionaire Elon Musk. NBC News has confirmed the account first reported by the New York Times, that some of the president's cabinet secretaries challenged Musk over his approach to cuts in their departments.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GABE GUTIERREZ:
Some details have come out about your Cabinet meeting with Elon Musk and some clashes between Secretary Rubio and Secretary Duffy –
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
No clash. I was there. You're just a troublemaker, And you're not supposed to be asking that question, because we're talking about the World Cup. Elon gets along great with Marco, and they're both doing a fantastic job. There is no clash.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The economy and concerns about high prices helped propel President Trump to the Oval Office with Mr. Trump promising change.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
And from the day I take the oath of office, we will rapidly drive prices down and make America affordable again. We’re going to get your energy prices down by 50%. Starting on day one, we will end inflation and make America affordable again. A vote for Trump means your groceries will be cheaper. And we’re going to have prices down – I think you’re going to see some pretty drastic price reductions.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The dizzying policy shifts on policy shifts on tariffs and concerns about the health of the economy produced one of the worst weeks on Wall Street in months. Steve Kornacki is here to take us through all the numbers. Steve, what are you seeing, and good morning.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Good morning, Kristen. Yeah, I mean, uneasy, volatile, unsettling. You could pick whatever adjective you want. But here's what the numbers look like this past week. Looking at the DOW average here with all of the news. You start last Monday, and look, you could see how the averages plummeted late Monday. That is when Trump made the announcement the tariffs were coming. It continued on Tuesday as the tariffs were imposed. Of course, then you had the reprieve for automakers. Deferring a lot of the other tariffs, and the market did start to make a little bit of upward movement. And actually, on Friday when you added in that new jobs report, you know, some folks on Wall Street feared it might be worse than it was. The market actually did close up a bit on Friday. But down significantly for the week. And if we broaden this out, zoom out and take a broader look at the trajectory of the market here, two things to highlight here in terms of Trump and his policies. Take a look at this. Again, this is the DOW average. Between Election Day and Inauguration Day, it was up basically 4%. There was optimism on Wall Street about what Trump would do as president. But since Inauguration Day, when Donald Trump began enacting policies like we saw this week with tariffs, it's been a very different reaction from Wall Street. Down more than a point and a half since Trump was inaugurated. Now, to put that in further perspective, we can compare that number, down 1.6% from Inauguration, to other modern presidents, the first couple months of their presidency. And again, look at this, it was up 6% in Trump's first term. Look at all of these other presidents. Clinton, you know, in both of his terms. Bush, Bi – it was up in all of these. The list even continues here, you can go all the way back to 1989 with George Bush Sr. We'll pop that one up there, and you'll see it actually went up with him. So here it is, Trump going down 1.6% in these first few months here. The only other negative number we've seen in modern times. I mean, this is nowhere near in the same ballpark, but 20% when Obama took over in '09. Remember, that was in the middle of the meltdown on Wall Street. So that's the question of investors and their reaction, and, of course, there is the question of consumers as well. So important to the economy. Are they going to be tightening their wallets? Are they going to be spending? We also got this indicator this week: the Consumer Confidence Index, a monthly report gauging the sentiment of consumers. And you see these numbers, it clocked in at 98.3 this month. Look the higher the number is, the more consumers are expressing optimism about the economy. So it fell. You see here, the number fell seven points in the last month. That declined seven points in one month. That is the biggest single month decline we've seen in this index in four years. Now, there's debate about the exact relationship between consumer attitude and actual consumer spending, but again, you add this into the mix with the other indicators, Kristen, and you can understand why folks on Wall Street and elsewhere are getting a little bit jittery these days, perhaps.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely. All right, Steve Kornacki starting us off this morning. Steve, thank you so much.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. Secretary Lutnick, welcome to Meet the Press.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Great to be here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is great to have you here, Mr. Secretary. Let's start with this past week. As you know, for the second time in two months, President Trump announced and then walked back tariffs on Canada and Mexico, the whiplash causing confusion on Wall Street and Main Street as well. Does the president have a responsibility to businesses and consumers to spell out his plan and then stick to it?
SEC.HOWARD LUTNICK:
You have to remember, this is a drug-related issue. You've got fentanyl pouring into this country, killing 75,000 Americans, autopsied. And the president, you know, thinks it's many, many more cause – multiples more. So it's important for the president to talk to the leaders of both Canada and Mexico, get them to shut the border, shut the fentanyl coming into the country. And of course he's going to be on the phone with them, and of course he's going to talk to them. And he is a dealmaker, the greatest dealmaker in the world. So he makes better deals. He's gotten the border closed. He's gotten fentanyl to be shut down. He put tariffs on China who makes the precursors. This is the way you run the country. You shut the border. You get our neighbors to do their job. It's not only us who has to do their job. Why are our neighbors, who live and breathe off our economy, not taking care of America?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, one death from fentanyl is too many. I think everyone agrees with that. One scintilla of fentanyl coming across any border is unacceptable on any level. It is worth noting that less than 1% comes over the Canadian border, 97% come over the border from Mexico. If this is the crisis that you just laid out, why is President Trump hitting the pause button? Not – why not go full bore with this?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Well, what he did – remember, what he did was we have a deal with Canada and Mexico, it's called U.S./Mexico/Canada Agreement, USMCA. And that says, if there's a certain amount of American product in those products, and it's done a certain way, they can trade with America tariff free. So by meeting in the middle with these leaders who said they're going to do much more on the border, they're going to do everything they possibly can to end fentanyl. The president said, "Okay, I'll tell you what. If they're in the deal that we made, I'll keep it tariff free." But for everybody who's outside that deal, who took the risk, who didn't pay attention and respect the agreements that President Trump made his first term, they're going to pay a 25% tariff. And that's sort of like meeting in the middle. So, he gave the automakers relief. He gave computer-makers relief. The major industries got relief. But everybody who's outside that agreement, they're going to pay. And Canada and Mexico promised they are going to crush the border and they're going to crush fentanyl. And that's what our president is here to do, to stop fentanyl killing Americans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, let me ask you about what the Fed Chair Jerome Powell had to say. On Friday he said, quote, "We're still very uncertain about what will be tariffed, for how long, and at what level." So can you provide some clarity, Mr. Secretary? Are these tariffs going to be temporary or permanent?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
So the tariffs that we've started with Mexico, Canada and China. That was the month of March. These are fentanyl-related, border-related. So China makes the ingredients for fentanyl. It's got to stop. President Xi offered President Trump in 2019 – he'd put the death penalty on anybody who made the ingredients for Fentanyl.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
And instead, you know what we've got in 2025? China is subsidizing the production of fentanyl, maximum subsidy available in China to make the ingredients to kill Americans. I mean, this is – President Trump is on it –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
– and he is powerful on it, and he's not going to step off the gas. So if you're talking about the drug war, let's focus on the drug war. And then when you want to talk about April 2nd, that's going to be reciprocal tariffs. And I'm happy to talk about that. But let's try to keep those two different.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, understood. But you say he's not going to take his foot off the gas. Does that mean these are permanent tariffs, Mr. Secretary, can you provide clarity? Yes or No?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
If fentanyl ends, I think these will come off, but if fentanyl does not end, or he's uncertain about it, they will stay this way until he is comfortable. This is black and white. You got to save American lives. So with respect, with respect to fentanyl, this is about the border and fentanyl, and that's an agreement between the President and the two leaders of Canada. Of course, Justin Trudeau has got a lot to say. Of course, he's leaving in like days, so it's not really that fun to listen to some guy who's trying to create sort of a mess for Canada, which he's trying to do. President Sheinbomb did a much more calm, thoughtful conversation with President Trump, and that's why this is the result. She was able to negotiate it because she said 1000 more people on the border stopping fentanyl from coming into this country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, I want to whip through this next section if we can. It's a little bit of a to-do list. President Trump previously announced 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports. Are those still going to take effect Wednesday? Yes or no?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. Okay. Are the 250% tariffs against Canada on dairy and lumber coming this week? And if so, when?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
No, that – I think that – those reactions, the changes to USMCA and beyond, they start on April 2nd. So on April 2nd we are going to revisit, again, the fentanyl issues and we are going to revisit, again, the general trade issues of reciprocality. Remember, Canada has – is supposed to have a free trade agreement with us, 250% are dairy products. It's outrageous. And you know, the president's going to respond to it. But he's agreed not to respond until April 2nd.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. So no tariffs this week in that regard. We'll wait till April 2nd to see those as it relates to dairy and lumber. The CEOs of Target and Best Buy this week warned that they will have to increase prices as a result of tariffs. Do you acknowledge that prices will go up for consumers because of these tariffs?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
I think it's important for people to realize that we run $2 trillion deficits, and Donald Trump is going to try to balance the budget of the United States of America. And when you balance the budget of the United States of America, you drive interest rates down 150 basis points, one and a half percent. You're going to have mortgages come smashing down, the cost of your home will come smashing down. We're going to drill baby drill and drive down the price of energy. That's coming down. So these two massive moves are going to happen. And you know who's going to pay for that? Tariffs and outside countries who just leech off of us, lean on us, earn money off of us, they've got to start to pay. I want – President Trump wants the American people to start to understand the External Revenue Service should start to pay. Yes, some products that are made foreign might be more expensive, but American products will get cheaper, and that's the point. Buy American, made by great Americans. We're going to bring manufacturing back. That's where we're going. That's where this President is going. Bring it back. So will there be distortions? Of course, foreign goods may get a little more expensive, but American goods are going to get cheaper, and you're going to be helping Americans by buying American.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. You take me right to my next question. I want to play you something that President Trump said to me back in December. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:
I won on groceries. It's a very simple word: groceries. Like, almost, you know, who uses the word? I started using the word, “the groceries.” When you buy apples, when you buy bacon, when you buy eggs, they were double and triple the price over a short period of time. And I won an election based on that. We're going to bring those prices way down.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, can you be specific? When exactly can Americans expect to see those prices come “way down?”
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Egg prices up 200% under Biden. Biden just killing chickens, trying to worry about things. It's crazy the way eggs have gone up 200%. Donald Trump's going to bring the price of eggs down now. Donald Trump's tariffs are – here's the idea. All these other countries, like India for instance, when Modi was in town, right? 1.4 billion people and they won't buy a bushel of our corn.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But–
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Europe, always blocking our farmers. As our farmers can sell more and more overseas–
KRISTEN WELKER:
But–
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
– you're going to see the price of food in America–
KRISTEN WELKER:
When?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
– come down. It's a volume thing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When, Mr. Secretary?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Well, I think the deal starts –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Months?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
–the deal starts April 2nd. The deal starts April 2nd of reciprocal tariffs. The president is going to negotiate country-by-country. He's going to drive down other countries' barriers, unleashing our farmers, our ranchers and our fishermen. They're going to explode in value and the prices of American produce, road crops, produce and fish are going to come down because our American industries are going to win around the world because finally, finally Donald Trump is behind them, protecting them. He's got their back and he's going to make them winners. And then all of America's going to be winners because these prices are coming down. And the process–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Alright.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
–starts April 2nd.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Alright, Mr. Secretary, consumer sentiment is dropping, inflation has ticked up, major banks like J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs now say a recession in the next 12-months is becoming more likely. Should Americans brace for a recession?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Absolutely not. Anybody who bets against Donald Trump. It's like the same people who thought Donald Trump wasn't a winner a year ago. Donald Trump is a winner. He's going to win for the American people. That's just the way it's going to be. There's going to be no recession in America. What there's going to be is global tariffs are going to come down because President Trump has said, “You want to charge us 100%? We're going to charge you 100%.” You know what they say? They say, “No, no, no, no, no, don't charge us 100%. We'll bring ours down.” We'll unleash America out to the world. Grow our economy in a way we've never grown before. You are going to see over the next two years the greatest set of growth coming from America as Americans. You saw it, 1.3 trillion of new investment coming into America that – think of all those jobs, and remember, each trillion of investment in America is 1% of growth GDP. So, Donald Trump is bringing growth to America. I would never bet on recession. No chance.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. That's about as definitive that you can be. “No recession in America.” You heard it here first. Let me ask you about this meeting you attended at the White House this week where Elon Musk and a group of Cabinet members “clashed” reportedly over the approach that Elon Musk is taking to slashing government. Can you tell me, Mr. Secretary, what was the president's message to you and other secretaries at the conclusion of that meeting? Was it that you are in charge, other secretaries are in charge of making that final decision about who and what will be cut and not Elon Musk?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Well, what the president made clear, both to the cabinet secretary and Elon, and we all agree with him. So we agreed with him before the meeting, after the meeting and during the meeting was, let's make sure when we're cutting, we're keeping the great people who work for the government. There are amazing people. I mean, the Commerce Department, I've met some amazing people. These people are extraordinary, and they're giving of themselves for America. So, we've got to cut the size of government. I mean, government has grown insanely. We've got to cut the size of this government, but let's – the president's advice and guidance was, let's be super sharp. Let's make sure we cut with a scalpel. Let's be sharp. Let's be clear and let's make sure we do it right. And we all agreed that the cabinet is one on these topics.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Mr. Secretary –
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
We got the greatest technologist in the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
You have the greatest technologist in the world, comes to the meeting wearing a t-shirt said – that says, “I'm tech support.”
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Mr. Secretary –
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
I mean, imagine you have the greatest technologist in the world coming to help you. How great is that?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to put a fine point on it, who did the president say was in charge? You and the other Cabinet secretaries or Elon Musk?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
He is in charge. Let's be crystal clear, he did not tell me I'm in charge. The president of the United States is in charge –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But of your agency? Who's in charge of your agency?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
– and we listen to him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I understand that, but who is in charge of your agency? You or Elon Musk?
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
Elon Musk is your partner. He's your partner in technology. He's your partner in thought. He's your partner in doing it. What President Trump made clear is that Elon is your partner, and that is what we'd like. You have the greatest businessman and greatest technologist in the world as my partner. You got to ask me, what do I think? Thank God. I would have Elon Musk come and help me. There's no one watching this TV right now, who if Elon Musk said he was going to come over to their house and help them, wouldn't like cheer. You have the best technologist and the richest guy in the world said, “I'll help you.” Come on, we want his help.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Secretary Lutnick, thank you so much. Really appreciate your insights, your information this morning. Thank you for joining us.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK:
My pleasure. Thanks for being here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. And when we come back, Democratic senator Elissa Slotkin of Michigan joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Senator Elissa Slotkin of Michigan. Senator Slotkin, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. You, of course, delivered the response to President Trump's joint address. It's a big week for you, so we appreciate your making time to be with us this morning. I do want to start on tariffs. President Trump has said that one of the goals of the tariffs is to bring back manufacturing to the U.S. which is, of course, incredibly critical to a state like yours of Michigan. You have been critical of President Trump's approach. But I wonder, Senator, would you support tariffs and using them to bring back manufacturing to your state?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Yeah, you know, I think, I mean, most of us aren't against tariffs, full stop, right? I think tariff's an important tool in the tool kit. I think just – the way he's handling tariffs is the way he's handling everything else right now. Which is, you know, we want change, but there's reckless change, and then there's responsible change. And the way that he's on again, off again, you know, pounding Canada as if they're the exact same thing as China, it just creates this chaotic feeling. And Michigan is probably going to be one of the most affected states in the entire country between our manufacturing sector and our farmers. So, I'm not against it in principle, especially against China. But Canadians? I mean, as the state, that you know, for our farmers, that's our number one market is Canada. So, I just want a scalpel and not a sledge hammer for these things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be clear, you oppose the tariffs against Canada. And what about Mexico?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
So, I think, look, you know, especially the way Secretary Lutnick was just talking about fentanyl. I just want to be clear. We're a couple miles from the U.S.-- Canada border right now. The fentanyl coming over the Canadian border last year totaled 43 pounds. Total. That's a whole different thing than what's going on at the Southern border. We know how to manage our border. We know how to provide security for our border. We've been doing it, you know, seamlessly for years. So I just think this is what I mean. Like, Mexico, we got a fentanyl problem with fentanyl coming in from China through Mexico. With Canada? That, to me, is a completely different story. So just be specific and thoughtful about these things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump, who did win your state of Michigan, is making sweeping cuts to the federal government as you well know. You just heard me talk about that with Secretary Lutnick. I want to play part of your response to the president's joint address this week. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
You want to cut waste? I'll help you do it. But change doesn't need to be chaotic or make us less safe.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Where are you willing to work with this administration, senator, to find those cuts, to make the government more efficient?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Yeah. I mean, I worked in the Pentagon. I worked in the CIA. I did a rotation over at the State Department. And I think if you ask anyone in a, you know, sort of without the cameras on, like, okay, in each department is there fat? Yeah. Right? We know there is. Are there missions that are pretty outdated that we could cut, right, that were maybe, like, Cold War missions that have just endured? Yeah. So I think that people who know these organizations would be happy to show you where that fat is. And if you said to a department or agency, "You know, you have to cut 10%, 15%, whatever." And then you actually do it so that you're not making Americans less safe. I think what we have right now is this kind of reckless approach which is kind of putting all of the information from these agencies into some artificial intelligence empowered software figuring out key words, cutting and pasting people. And it's not reflective of the mission of who they're supposed to be serving and who they're keeping safe. I think about the VA, right? Cutting the VA and some of the proposals I've seen are going to hurt service to veterans. So let's agree that that's a bad idea. Bipartisan. It’s a bad idea to do that. So I think there are ways to do it. And again, I would be help – I mean, I certainly when I was at the Pentagon could tell you places in that place that I would have cut if I had the power to do it. But this kind of willy nilly approach makes us less safe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, senator, Democrats were in charge for four years. You were in Congress at the time. Why didn't Democrats do more to cut government spending when they were in charge?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Yeah. I think what we have right now, I mean, I think if I can just be blunt about it is, you know, we have a situation where the politics are so broken between Democrats and Republicans, that what seems logical, right – people getting in a room and saying, "Look, we got to live within our means. That means we can't spend as much. And we can't cut, you know, the money coming in to the household, to the federal budget by millions and millions and millions. We have to make the balance work." Neither party trusts the other one, right? So Democrats are saying, "Well, I'm not going to cut spending until you don't give those tax breaks to those very, very wealthy people." The Republicans say the same thing. "We're not going to change until you change." And you have a situation where debt is out of control. So to me, I think you're right. That both parties need to do better. And act like adults and get in a room and shut out Twitter and the media and actually deal with our deficit, our debt.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's talk about how your party reacted to President Trump's joint address this week. The House has now censured Congressman Al Green because he interrupted, was jeering at the president. You served in the House, Senator Slotkin. Would you have voted to censure Congressman Green for his behavior?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
You know, look, I think to me there's so much frustration with the Trump administration. There's so much concern that what you saw was sort of the emotion and wanting to be visible. It's not personally the way I reacted. You saw my speech. I have a different, different approach. I think what I try to focus on is, like, we can't just be against something. We have to be for something. What do we want to do? What do Democrats want to do that's different? And how do we hear the fact that the country wants change, we want something different. And offer an alternative vision. So look, I know Congressman Green. And it was clearly something he felt very passionately. It's just not my number one, like, go-to approach.
KRISTEN WELKER:
In his first episode of his new podcast, another big figure in your party, California Governor Gavin Newsom brought on Republican strategist Charlie Kirk who then asked Newsom about the debate over transgender athletes. Let's take a listen to a little bit of that conversation.
[BEGIN TAPE]
CHARLIE KIRK:
Would you say no men in female sports?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Well, I think it's an issue of fairness. I completely agree with you on that. It is an issue of fairness.
CHARLIE KIRK:
So –
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
– it's deeply unfair. Which I revere sports. And so the issue of fairness is completely legit.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, do you agree with Governor Newsom?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Well, look, I think, you know, you'll have to talk to Mr. Newsom and his podcast. And we're all talking about it now because it's, you know, good controversy. For me, I mean, I grew up playing three seasons of sports. In Michigan sports is, like, our religion, right? I wouldn't be here, I think, without the leadership training that I got in women's sports. But for me, it's like: Let the local community figure this out, right? In Michigan we have a process in place where if someone who's born a boy wants to play in women's sports, you have to get a waiver. We've had it happen two times in our entire state. So, let the local communities, just like everything with school, handle that issue. For me though I think, you know, this issue is being sort of brought up in order to make sparks and see sparks fly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Two quick questions. We're almost out of time. Since you delivered the Democratic response this week, a lot of eyes on you, senator. Who would you say is the leader of the Democratic Party right now?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Look, I mean, people know me. I'm pretty straightforward. I don't think it's a secret that Democrats have been on their heels since Trump won the election, right? I don't think that's, you know, something hidden. And I think it's on us to be clear about not only leadership, and there's lots of leaders in both parties, but also a strategy, right? And I think that's something that as Trump has been successful in flooding the zone and just, like, every day 15 things happening. We are still finding our footing. And I think you can't get better until you admit you have a problem. And for me, that's one of the things that I think some of the new voices in the party have really been agitating about, right. New senators, new representatives, new folks who are like, "Hey, we need to do more. And we need to be showing that we're actually having a plan to stand up on really important moments of inflection." So, that's what I'm trying to do from within.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, finally, as you well know, the government is poised to run out of money on Friday. The House did release the text of their bill to keep the government open. Will you vote yes to keep the government open, Senator? Do you support this bill?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Well, we just got the bill yesterday. So we're still looking through it. And it has to go through the House. And they have very tight margins in the House. So we'll see if it can get through. But I think the fundamental point, at least as I approach this, is, look, the president has been deciding how to spend the money anyway he wants even when we have a budget that both Democrats and Republicans voted on. That's a constitutional issue, right? Everyone knows Congress has the power of the purse. So I just – until I see some assurances that whatever we pass next week is going to ensure that the money is spent the way Congress intends, I'm going to withhold my vote until I see that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we'll follow up with you. Senator Slotkin, thank you so much for joining us after a big week. Appreciate all of your insights, all of your answers and conversation this morning. Great to see you. And when we come back, is President Trump's cabinet reaching a breaking point with Elon Musk? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, the panel is here. NBC News Senior National Security and Pentagon Correspondent Courtney Kube. Jonathan Martin, Politics Bureau Chief and Senior Political Columnist for POLITICO. Symone Sanders Townsend, former chief spokesperson for Vice President Harris, and Marc Short, former Trump director of Legislative Affairs. Thanks to all of you for being here. Jonathan, let me kick it off with you. After this week of whiplash over President Trump's tariffs, you heard his Secretary of his Commerce Howard Lutnick basically defend the strategy. What do you make of where we are right now, and did the Commerce Secretary say anything that will calm markets tomorrow?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Lutnick to Wall Street, "Get used to it." It's going to be week-to-week, in some cases day-to-day, or even hour-to-hour. This tariff regime, some are on, some are off. Look, I think this was the week, Kristen, that Wall Street woke up. And Wall Street snapped out of its denialism. There was a sense, I think, among a lot of investors in the aftermath of the election, when they were riding the Trump bump, that we are back. "We have a deregulatory, conservative, pro-market, pro-business president." That was fantasy. That is not Donald Trump. He is not from The Wall Street Journal. He is somebody who does deeply believe in tariffs, not just on fentanyl or drug inflow. He believes fundamentally in the tariffs. He said it's the best word in the English language. And so I think this was a sort of seminal week on – on Wall Street and that it's not going to change. And by the way, it isn't just the tariffs. It's also the uncertainty about Elon and the role of the federal government because that involves contracts with the private sector. So business is paralyzed on hiring, on investing, they don't know what to do going forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, you know, it – it's so interesting. Jonathan I think hits at such an important point. President Trump has loved tariffs long before he was president. This was a part of his first term. But it looks different in his first term, right?
MARC SHORT:
Very different, Kristen. I think the reality is that this tariff agenda is a huge wet blanket on the economy. And I think to J-Mart's point, the reality is that I think markets assume that Trump 2.0 would be like Trump 1.0, and – and I think it's very different. The reality is that after, I think, the Biden administration's over-regulation of the economy, they – markets initially were excited thinking of a deregulatory agenda. And that this administration would continue and extend tax relief. And concern was if Democrats had taken any chamber of Congress, that wouldn't happen. And so there was excitement. But this – this – this tariff agenda is really one that he has surrounded himself now in a second administration with true acolytes and disciples who believe strongly in tariff policy. And as you even heard Secretary Lutnick say, the president said this specifically in the State of the Union: April 2nd is the date. It's not just – it’s not just reciprocity tariffs. It's copper, it's steel, it's aluminum, it's on the E.U. And so he's setting the predicate for, I think, a very significant protection-straight agenda.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Symone, pick up on that point. And you heard Senator Slotkin say, "I'm not opposed to all tariffs."
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
Right, because there are some tariffs that are good, right? Like, I mean, just – just to be clear, some of the tariffs from the first Trump administration, President Biden kept in place –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely.
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
– specifically his tariffs on China.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good point. Yeah.
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
Earlier today, I did double duty, so I did my show earlier today. And we had a business owner on who they manufacture – they sell camping gear, and they're based in San Francisco, but they have their products they manufacture in China. And they're in REI. I mean, it's a camping thing. And the – the gentleman said he is going to have to raise his prices. And I said, "Well, well why?" He said, "Because of the tariffs." He said, "We – we're going to have to raise our prices to absorb the cost of the tariffs." He said it's going to cost him $20,000 more to make what he is making because of the cost it's going to take to – to get into the country. That is the reality here of the situation. So Americans are going to start feeling this a lot more. And I just – it’s – it’s – people always talk about the stock market and whatnot. And yes, I think the president pays attention to the stock market. I heard Secretary Lutnick talk about GDP and how it will add to GDP. Folks in Kenosha, Wisconsin, they're not necessarily looking at the GDP or the stock market. They are wondering – they are looking at their pocketbooks and the prices, and that's what will affect them most.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Court, all of this comes against the backdrop of these tensions between Elon Musk, who's charged with slashing the federal government and the Cabinet secretaries. I asked Secretary Lutnick about that. He wouldn't kind of go so far as to say, "Look, bottom line, the president said we're all in charge of our own agencies." But what are you hearing about what came out of that meeting?
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yeah, that's right. I mean, this is the first time that we've heard that some frustrations that frankly have been in place for several weeks now, are actually boiling over. And what I was really struck by was they boiled over in front of President Trump. So in this case, there were several of the Cabinet secretaries who confronted Elon Musk on Thursday about the way that DOGE is doing these firings. So it's not just the firings in general, but how they are doing it. Cutting thousands of employees, in some cases having to bring some of them back. Because they are not taking into account employees' performance or some of the critical nature of the jobs that they're doing. And that was really at issue here. Now, this – this is something that Republicans have been concerned about. That's why Elon Musk met with them Wednesday night on the Hill. They met for two hours. But at the end of the day, Elon Musk still has a lot of authority. What we did see out of this Cabinet meeting was President Trump said, "Look, the secretaries have the authority to make their own firings here. But if you don't do enough, DOGE will step in." Remember, most of these secretaries will do enough. I will say, the president also walked out of it saying Elon Musk is doing an amazing job. I think his role as – his role as First Buddy is probably still pretty safe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I think that's probably – yes, please.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
But Kristen, these Cabinet secretaries, if – if there's one more aviation accident, guess who gets blamed for that?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Sean Duffy at DOT. You know, so it's also politics for these Cabinet secretaries too because they have skin in the game here. Because if there's a crisis or an accident on their watch in their agencies, Elon doesn't take the hit. They do, politically.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Marc?
MARC SHORT:
I think for Republicans, reality is we're $36 trillion in debt. I think a lot of Americans voted for Donald Trump because they wanted a businessman to come and clean up government. I think in a lot of ways this is good. But Kristen, the big question I have is that, you know, Thursday, Friday we're going to have a vote on a continuing resolution that will be funding government at its current level. So you're basically re-funding the things that Elon Musk and DOGE has been cutting. And so I think Congress actually needs to codify these cuts if we want them to be permanent more than just to show.
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
Well, if you look at the text of that, what was put out last night, there are a lot of things that are zeroed out. The COPS program for police, the toxic waste program that was for veterans who were affected by burn pits and whatnot, zeroed out. Many programs, about 22 line items, were zeroed out. Look, I just think the situation on the cuts, what Elon Musk has cut though has not yet been identified if it was waste, or abuse, or fraud. He's firing people indiscriminately. I mean, just today RFK Jr. said he's going to give $25,000 to people if they – like, I don't think they've actually saved any money is my point, which is not what Americans voted for.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. We will continue this conversation, guys. Stick around. We have more of the panel. When we come back, President Reagan was the first to call for abolishing the Department of Education. Why he changed his mind. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Trump is considering an executive order which would abolish the Department of Education. Though as a federal department it cannot be eliminated without congressional approval. But Mr. Trump is not the first president to push for its removal. Ronald Reagan also tried to scrap the Education Department, but he later backed down citing lack of support in Congress. Reagan's Education Secretary William Bennett joined Meet the Press to explain.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEC. WILLIAM BENNETT:
As I've said to conservatives in the past six months, if we are elected we ought to govern, and we ought to govern aggressively. The president, you know, nine months ago said he changed his mind about the department. He said he didn't think we needed to get rid of it anymore. He said it wasn't bothering anybody anymore. I would say now it's bothering the right people.
JACK NELSON:
You have said, though, that sometimes Republicans seem to think that you just don't need to spend money on education. What did you mean by that?
SEC. WILLIAM BENNETT:
Well, we are as a nation going to spend more money. Americans like to spend more money on education. And when we put forward our budget proposals, and admittedly on some occasions we asked for reductions, Congress just rejected them out of hand. The American people want to spend more. But what we know is it's not the spending more, it's what you spend it on. And if we spend it on the right things in those inner cities and those poor schools, we'll get results. If you spend it on the wrong thing, like the special interests want us to do, we're not going to get anywhere.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, President Trump floated the idea of backing out of NATO. How serious is he? More with the panel next. Stay with us.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REPORTER:
Are you thinking about making any changes to NATO where a NATO country gets attacked, they're not paying enough dues, so the United States doesn't defend them?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I've said that to them. I said, "If you're not going to pay we're not going to defend." I said that seven years ago. And because of that, they paid hundreds of billions of dollars. I said, "If you're not going to pay your bills, we're not going to defend you."
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Panel is still here. Courtney, that was an extraordinary moment in the Oval Office, because the president was basically confirming your exclusive reporting that if NATO countries don't pay their percentage of GDP that the United States will not defend them. That's one of the things the president's considering. And then overnight you reported that the president wants to see more than just a minerals deal in order to reinstate military aid and intelligence sharing. What do you know?
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yeah, that's right. So on NATO it's not just about Article 5 that the president is considering. There is a consideration by the Trump administration for a full change in how the U.S. supports NATO going forward. So basically, they would potentially calibrate their support going forward to the countries that pay enough in their defense spending. So NATO for the past decade or so has said 2% of a country's GDP should go to defense. The Trump administration came and they said, "We want that to be 5%." For the record, the U.S. pays about 3.9%. So, the U.S. is not at that level. But some countries are stepping up. Lithuania's already pledged to make 5%. But if these countries do not meet this new threshold, the Trump administration may pull troops out of their countries. They may not participate in exercises with them. It comes, as we also learned, that some of these close U.S. allies, the closest U.S. allies in intelligence sharing, are considering scaling back some of their sharing. And at issue is they are very concerned about what they see as a more conciliatory tone towards Russia. And they are worried that that could expose some of their foreign assets, and that's sacrosanct, of course, in the intelligence world –
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
You know, the only time Article 5 was invoked where someone – other countries had to come to the aid of a NATO ally was the United States after 9/11.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I'm glad you raised that.
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
And in the clip you played after that he says, "I don't know if they'd come to our defense." But they have. And so I do think that's why so many people are so distressed, if you will, in the national security community about what they're hearing from the president and this administration.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
My colleagues at Politico Europe have a story overnight about the possibility of Europeans creating their own intelligence sharing. Instead of Five Eyes, calling it Euro Eyes. Because I think they can’t rely – they’re realizing in Europe, they can't rely on the U.S. as a steady partner as they have for the last 80 years because Donald Trump has not committed to the Transatlantic Alliance. Donald Trump is more invested in a great powers type geopolitical structure in which big countries like the U.S., Russia, and China are effectively the deciders as to who does what.
MARC SHORT:
Well, I think that the fist administration of President Trump was actually very effective at getting NATO partners to actually pay up. And I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. Where we are today, though, is I think there's a lot of advisers around the president who do no longer believe Russia's the same threat, and do want to walk away from NATO. But they make the arguments because China is our number one adversary. We need to focus on China. But Kristen, candidly, I'm concerned also that so far –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Does Trump believe that, though –
MARC SHORT:
– So far, other than the tariffs on China, our posture's actually been weak. Basically, the president has defied the law on TikTok, and he's basically sent signals that we're not going to defend Taiwan. And so if the strategy was to say, "We need to focus here in the Pacific," charitably some may agree with that, but what's the evidence we're actually doing that?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Symone, a lot of opposition to everything that we're discussing here from Democrats. I thought it was notable that Senator Slotkin acknowledged Democrats are on their heels. Didn't name who she thought was the leader of the Democratic Party. Where are Democrats right now, particularly in the wake of what we saw at the joint address?
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
Well, one I would say – I would agree that I think Democrats are on their heels. I think it would be a lie to say that Democrats are on solid footing here. But maybe on their heels is a good place to be, because they're in a fight position. I reject this idea that you go to name a leader. The people – the last time Donald Trump was in office and there was all this groundswell, it wasn't lead by Democratic elected officials. It was led by the people in the streets. The same people that you were seeing coming to town halls, Democrats and Republicans. I think that Democrats have to be responsive to the people, though, and they want to be the thermostat. But they actually need to tap into being the thermometer, and get the temperature of where their constituents are.
MARC SHORT:
They're the best foil for President Trump. I mean, the reality is that Elissa Slotkin didn't get the coverage. It was the angry old man, Al Green, shaking a cane –
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND:
– For Medicaid.
MARC SHORT:
And they play right into, they play right into what Trump wants.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And there's a reason why I think Jeffries told his House Democrats, "Don't do that." Because he knew the image would be a gift to Trump. And they did it anyways.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Court, 30 seconds.
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yeah, one thing about Elissa Slotkin's speech that really stuck out to me, frankly, is given her background, CIA analyst, Pentagon official, was when she talked about Ronald Reagan rolling over in his grave because of that meeting with President Zelensky in the Oval Office. She knows what she's talking about. And that stuck out to me, because she knows the importance of complicated allies and that the alternative is even worse than dealing with the complicated allies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Fantastic conversation, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We will be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.