CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Party purge.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
I've had it with her. You know, I've lost confidence.
CHUCK TODD:
Republicans move to oust Representative Liz Cheney from party leadership.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:I have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair, to carry out the message.
CHUCK TODD:
The message Cheney has been sending?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
President Trump claimed for months that the election was stolen and then apparently set about to do everything he could to steal it himself.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
You can't be the conference chair when you consistently speak out against the leader of our party.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
She's made a determination that the Republican Party can't, can’t grow with President Trump. I've determined we can't grow without him.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Maryland's Republican governor Larry Hogan, who is eyeing a run for president, and Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. Plus, the good news on Covid.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
Models, once projecting really grim news, now offer reasons to be quite hopeful for what the summer may bring.
CHUCK TODD:
Bistros, Broadway and ballgames preparing to come back.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO:
In every part of New York City, life is coming back.
CHUCK TODD:
The CDC projecting a sharp decline in cases, hospitalizations and deaths --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Let's just get as many people vaccinated as we possibly can as quickly as we can.
CHUCK TODD:
-- even as herd immunity is unlikely because of vaccine hesitancy.
WOMAN:
I don't know. I think I'm afraid. I don't know if I'm going to get it.
CHUCK TODD:
My guest this morning, Dr. Anthony Fauci. And that disappointing jobs report, evidence that we're spending too much in unemployment benefits? Or proof we need to keep the support flowing? Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute and Jake Sherman, founder of the news site, Punchbowl News. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
A good Sunday morning, and a happy Mother's Day to all of the moms out there. The coming leadership ouster of Liz Cheney is about much more than the sacking of the number three House Republican. It is an unconditional surrender by one of our two major political parties to former President Trump and his Big Lie that the 2020 election was somehow stolen. Cheney's crime is not that she isn't conservative, it's that she's not conservative as defined by today's Republican Party, which apparently means unquestioning loyalty to the defeated former president. She stands accused of telling the truth: that the election was not stolen, and for criticizing Mr. Trump for inciting the January 6 Capitol insurrection. This episode is just the latest chapter in the party's purging of its legacy: the Bushes, the McCains, the Romneys and now the Cheneys -- names that appeared on eight of nine presidential tickets from 1980 to 2012 -- all now essentially excommunicated by the party's base and leadership. And for one reason only. The message: Go along with Donald Trump and his lies, or just go away. Will this help Republican election prospects in the short term? Perhaps. But what does it mean for our democracy when a great political institution refuses to accept free and fair election results and rejects its own who choose principle over party?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
I have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair.
CHUCK TODD:
Congresswoman Liz Cheney, facing a vote as soon as Wednesday to oust her from leadership, after her criticism of Donald Trump's Big Lie, that the election was stolen, and his role in the Capitol attack.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
We will not forget what happened on January 6th, and that the single greatest threat to our republic is a president who would put his own self-interest above the Constitution.
CHUCK TODD:
Cheney, writing in The Washington Post this week, "The question before us now is whether we will join Trump’s crusade to delegitimize and undo the legal outcome of the 2020 election." House Republican leaders have answered that question.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
I've had it with her. You know, I've lost confidence.
CHUCK TODD:
Boosting New York's Elise Stefanik, who Trump has endorsed.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
My vision is to run with support from the president.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
What they’re saying is, if you don’t go along with the Big Lie, you basically need to go.
CHUCK TODD:
Stefanik voted with President Trump just 78% of the time, criticizing his border wall, opposing him on NAFTA and trade, even voting against his signature 2017 tax cuts. Cheney voted with Trump 93% of the time. Once a Trump critic --
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
I think he has been insulting to women.
CHUCK TODD:
-- Stefanik became a high-profile Trump defender during his first impeachment.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
When she opens that mouth, you were killing them, Elise.
CHUCK TODD:
Trump, meanwhile, has denounced Cheney unremittingly: this week he called her “a warmongering fool who has no business in Republican Party leadership”
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The good news is in her state, she's been censured.
CHUCK TODD:
All 17 Republicans who voted to impeach or convict Donald Trump have faced censure votes or formal rebukes at home. Utah Senator Mitt Romney, once the party's nominee for president, booed at a state convention last weekend, though the vote to censure him failed.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
I don’t hide the fact that I wasn’t a fan of our last president’s character issues.
CHUCK TODD:
Trump's Big Lie is also fueling efforts to restrict voting access in Republican-controlled state legislatures across the country, including Florida and Texas this week, and a hand recount of 2.1 million ballots in Maricopa County, Arizona.
JOHN BRAKEY:
There's accusations that 40,000 ballots were flown in --
REPORTER:
To Arizona?
BRAKEY:
To Arizona. And it was stuffed into the box, okay? And it came from the southeast part of the world, Asia, okay? And what they're doing is to find out if there's bamboo in the paper.
CHUCK TODD:
While Cheney still has Republican supporters --
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO:
We need to make sure as we're moving into 2022 that we don't start narrowing the tent, which is what I think this will do.
CHUCK TODD:
-- Senate Republican leaders have stopped defending her.
REPORTER:
Do you support Liz remaining in a position of power, yes or no?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
What I'm focusing on is this new administration.
CHUCK TODD:
In a total party surrender to Donald Trump.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I've always liked Liz Cheney, but she's made a determination that the Republican Party can't, can’t grow with President Trump. I've determined we can't grow without him.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. And he's, of course, one of the seven Republicans who voted to convict President Trump during his second impeachment trial earlier this year. Senator Cassidy, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Thank you, Chuck. Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start -- you know, Congressman Anthony Gonzalez, one of the Republican House members who voted to impeach, was censured by the Ohio Republican Party this week and called a traitor by a candidate for the U.S. Senate that hopes to be your colleague in 2023 in the United States Senate, Josh Mandel. Can you explain the fervor that seems to be inside this party to punish people like yourself and anybody that crossed the president here?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Well, I have found that there's a lot of misinformation out there that when you listen to people, they know you're listening, and then you present, kind of, the other side, you get people who are least neutral, but oftentimes, "Hmm, I didn't know that." And they'll agree with you. For example, if I'm asked about voter fraud, I point out that Giuliani under oath said there was no fraud. And now outside the courtroom he says, "Stop the steal." But inside, he says there was no fraud. I'd point out that Sidney Powell in March said that no reasonable person would've believed what she had said. No reasonable person. She's playing people for a sap. And so once they hear that, that kind of gives them a gut check. So when you go through those facts and others that I could list, then there's a reconsideration. I'm confident that that process will continue.
CHUCK TODD:
How should that process continue because, as you saw in our opening piece there, look, more elected Republicans, and I'm leaving you out of this because you -- when you're asked, you address the issue. But a lot of Republicans have chosen not to, right? They've chosen to say, you know, in the face of these Trump conspiracy theories, they just want to, you know, "I'm not looking backwards, I'm looking forwards." Is that a mistake?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
I can't speak for other people, but I do find being honest with the American people always works. And if you give them the facts, they will flip their mind. If they ask about the constitutionality of the impeachment proceedings, I just say, "Watch the YouTube of the first day of the impeachment and you will come away convinced that it was constitutional." And so the more you hit that, these are good Americans. The more they do their investigation, the more they will come to understand, and I think as -- at least that it's reasonable to hold the position, as I, as Representative Cheney. And that's our process of getting to a better place.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you still feel welcome inside the Republican Party?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Absolutely. I feel incredibly welcome. Believe me, there are some people that are still upset with me. And there are some people who are very pleased. I was at an airshow at Barksdale Air Force Base yesterday in Shreveport, Louisiana. I'm always struck when I see one of those young airmen or airwomen. They take an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Almost every American wants to support and defend the Constitution. Once we begin to see it in that light, folks are kind of okay with where I am. I'm okay as well with this process that we're working through.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Lindsey Graham said he doesn't believe the Republican Party can grow without Donald Trump. Look, this debate is there, right? “You can't win with him, you can't win without him.” Where are you on this?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Yeah, so the policies really worked. Before Covid hit, we had the best economy we've had in my lifetime. Now, I would argue that there are some who still see him as the messenger of that set of policies that they felt was incredibly positive for our country. If you look at polls, there's a whole group of folks that agree with Liz Cheney. And so, for us to win in 2022 and 2024 we need everybody. We need those who feel as Liz. We need those who feel as Lindsey. Now ultimately, it's about the policies. You see that Cheney, Cassidy support those policies. Those policies are our ticket to victory. And I think those policies are the ones that bring us back in 2022.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play something that Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said earlier this week about working with the Biden administration. Take a listen. Okay. He said 100 percent of his focus was on stopping the new administration. The next day, he kind of walked it back and said he was -- he says he wants to do business for the president, but he needs to be moderate here. Do you feel as if he has given you openness to work across the aisle? Do you feel as if you can cut a deal? If you guys come to an agreement on an infrastructure plan, that leadership will support you in this?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Absolutely. And I give an example. On the Asian hate crime bill, Mitch came to our conference and said, "Let’s -- we don't like the way the bill starts off, but we can work with Democrats and get to a better place." On infrastructure, he has made it clear. If we can find something that actually spends money on infrastructure, roads and bridges -- imagine that, as opposed to what the Biden plan does which is spends a trillion on things which have no relationship to infrastructure -- we can cut a deal. I don't think Mitch or any Republican is for the $7 trillion in spending the administration has proposed for this year alone. I think that's the thrust of his comments.
CHUCK TODD:
When you heard that President Biden said he is not going to deficit spend, does that tell you that this bill's going to get smaller because there have been Democratic senators that have been a little nervous about some of these tax increases? Does that indicate to you that maybe a smaller deal is in the works?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Any time you're talking about $7 trillion in spending in one year and you're not going to deficit spend, grab your wallet. I don't care who you are. And so, of course, they're nervous because you're talking about spending that inevitably ends up hurting the economy. Republicans showed that when you let the American people keep their own money and invest in that which they wish to invest in, the economy takes off with record low unemployment for Blacks, Hispanics, veterans, high school drop-outs, you name it. The Biden administration is trying to trickle down through Democratic-leaning organizations. I think everybody has a pause about $7 trillion spent in such a way.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about the pipeline. You're on the energy committee. This cyber attack on this Colonial Pipeline. Obviously, it goes through the state of Louisiana. This moves oil here all up and down the East Coast. Look, this critical infrastructure held by private companies where we're not 100 percent sure they're doing everything they need to be doing, how do we fix this?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Yeah, so Congress has attempted to fix that. There’s been problems in the past with sharing classified information with private entities. And Congress has passed a law to fix that. But it's going to take an ongoing relationship. By the way, a bipartisan relationship, in which we better equip small businesses and large businesses to withstand cyber attacks. Chuck, the implications for this, for our national security, cannot be overstated. And I promise you, this is something that Republicans and Democrats can work together on.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican from Louisiana. Appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective with us, sir. Thank you.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Governor Larry Hogan of Maryland. He's a Republican in a very Democratic state, who has taken on a leadership role in the Republican Party and, and may end up running for president in 2024. Governor Hogan, it's a pleasure to have you. Welcome back to Meet The Press.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
So I want to start with this, which is the Lindsey Graham analysis. He says, “Liz Cheney thinks the party can't grow with Donald Trump.” And obviously Lindsey Graham believes the party can't grow without Donald Trump. What say you, Governor Hogan?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, look, I think we've got to get back to winning elections again. And we have to be able to have a Republican Party that appeals to a broader group of people. And we have to get back to having a bigger tent, as Reagan talked about, and not continuing to -- look, we had the worst four years we've, we’ve had ever in the Republican Party, losing the White House, the, the House of Representatives, and the Senate. And successful politics is about addition and multiplication, not subtraction and division.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you explain why the party doesn't seem to hold Donald Trump responsible, responsible for this? When I say the party, most of the elected leadership, you're an exception at the NGA/RGA apparatus, but most of the leadership doesn't seem to pin this on him. You know, again, you sort of -- the record is the record. Why do you think they don't want to pin it on him?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I think they're concerned about retaliation from the president. They're concerned about, you know, being attacked within the party. And, you know, it just bothers me that you have to swear fealty to the dear leader or you get kicked out of the party. It just doesn't make any sense.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it -- to me, the most damning part of this. Liz Cheney voted for President Trump's single, singular legislative achievement, and what many Republicans tell me is very important to protecting. The person that they're replacing her with voted against it. I mean, is, is the party now what you just said? If you're not with Trump, you're not a Republican?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN
Well, it's sort of a circular firing squad where we're just attacking members of our own party, instead of focusing on solving problems or standing up and having an argument that, that, that we can debate the Democrats on some of the things that the Biden administration is pushing through.
CHUCK TODD:
What do you -- how do you talk to Trump voters? You have -- there's certainly some places that President Trump did well in western Maryland, some places along the Eastern shore. You're in a blue state, so you have a little bit of an easier time straddling the wings of the party. But how do you have a conversation with a Trump supporter that says, "Hey, how come you haven't investigated voter fraud, Governor Hogan?"
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I just try to be honest with them. And you know, in my state I ran 45 points ahead of the president. But I -- I'm ahead of him among Republicans, among conservatives, and among Democrats and independents. And I think what most people want, really, is just people to tell them the truth. And we can disagree on what happened in the election. But voters still support me in spite of the fact that I don't happen to support conspiracy theories.
CHUCK TODD:
One of the issues is the information ecosystem. And as you know, it -- there is a reward, there is a sort of a reward system for “own the le-- own the libs” political theatrics. And if you somehow help pass a bipartisan bill, you're punished. You know, that seems, I mean -- you want to run for president. How do you run in an environment where --
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
It's --
CHUCK TODD:
-- most of the voters you're going to be appealing to are hearing this bizarre set of, of fictional ideas?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
I, I think that most voters in both parties are kind of fed up with the crazy things that are coming out of both parties. And they, they really want to elect elected officials that are willing to work together, that are willing to get things done and come up with bipartisan, common-sense solutions. And I've proven that in two elections in a row by winning overwhelmingly with Republicans, Democrats, and independents. Because it’s -- you know people, people are just fed up with the politics we have in Washington today.
CHUCK TODD:
Does this, if -- look, this decision by the House Republicans to oust Liz Cheney, it's not a done deal yet, but does this now put -- make Donald Trump and the Republicans in 2022 that it's a referendum on his leadership? And if Republicans can't win the House and Senate with Donald Trump as a leader of the party, is that finally the moment that perhaps some of these elected leaders realize, "Oh, Trump hasn't been good for the party"?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, perhaps. You know, I think it's a long, it’s a long war. And this is just -- it's only been a couple of months and we've got to see what happens in '22 and lead up to 2024. This is going to be a battle for the soul of the Republican Party. And I think things are going to be a lot different a year from now and two years from now and four years from now than they are right now.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious --
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
And look, after --
CHUCK TODD:
Go ahead.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
After, in 1976, when -- in 1976 after Watergate, they said it was the death of the Republican Party. And we came back four years later in 1980 with the biggest landslide victories in history with Ronald Reagan.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about the pipeline situation, because this pipeline goes through the state of Maryland. How does something like this work? Are you alerted? Are you aware of this and, and these ransom attacks? As you know, small local government entities are getting hit with these almost every day and we don't seem to know how to deal with it. What's your prescription?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, cyber threats are one of the biggest threats we face. And, you know, Maryland is the cyber capital of America. We're the home to NSA and the U.S. Cyber Command. These are things we've got to invest more money in. You had Senator Cassidy on earlier. He and I are working towards a bipartisan compromise on infrastructure, which includes more money in, in securing the grid and securing our energy infrastructure.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Larry Hogan, Republican from Maryland, always good to have you on. Thanks for coming on and sharing your view with us, sir.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, Republican leaders are betting that unflinching support for Donald Trump is somehow smart politics. Is it? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, the panel is with us: NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute and Jake Sherman, he’s founder of the Capitol Hill news site, Punchbowl News. Jake, you're our resident Capitol Hill vote counter here. And it may only need a majority of the House Republican conference to oust Liz Cheney. But should we assume this vote is a done deal, considering how the vote went the last time?
JAKE SHERMAN:
I'll say it this way, Chuck. I have no evidence at all that Liz Cheney is not going to be ousted. No reporting that indicates that. She won by a healthy margin last time, but a lot of Republicans I've talked to in the last two or three days have suggested that they've not seen any sort of behavior change, that's the way they put it, from the last vote. They would like her -- even the people, Chuck, I'd say this, even the people who don't like Donald Trump, some of the people who voted for impeachment, do not want to be constantly talking about Donald Trump. They might agree with Cheney on the substance. But they don't want this to be the overwhelming narrative of their next 16 to 18 months.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But Danielle Pletka, this is one of the weirder parts of this rationale, that it's somehow Liz Cheney that keeps bringing it up. I mean, I want to show here, Donald Trump has brought up the election some 20-plus times, I think. You know, 24 times since he's been off social media, he's put out a statement claiming election fraud. And he did it five times this week. The person that seems to be obsessed with re-litigating the past is Donald Trump, not Liz Cheney.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
I think the problem for the Republican Party is that they really, even since 2016, have not figured out Trump's appeal. And they haven't figured out how to, how to govern with Trumpism without Trump. And that’s, that's great for Donald Trump because he wants this to be all about him. He doesn't want Trumpism to exist without him. The problem for the party is that they can't figure out what it is that got him elected, that made him popular. And so there's this struggle. And I think for the, for the conference, you know, the question we have to ask ourselves is, why doesn't Liz Cheney speak for the conference? Isn't that a big problem for the Republican Party? And the answer is, of course, it is a big problem, and one that they need to sort out.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Hallie Jackson, look. Elise Stefanik. She voted against --
HALLIE JACKSON:
That's right --
CHUCK TODD:
--President Trump's tax bill, right? Forget the other stuff. Everybody else has made these points that, you know, on all the different ways that she has not been, what, what Dany said, what is Trumpism? Because if you, if it's defined by these issues, she, she doesn't fit the bill, unless, if you believe the election lie, then she does.
HALLIE JACKSON:
And that's why it's striking to hear some of these House Republican leaders talk about how they want somebody who is going to carry on what is sort of the message of the Republican Party, which is the message of Trumpism. If you're looking for somebody who's going to do that on policy, it's actually Liz Cheney who scores better on that front than somebody like Elise Stefanik, or like Elise Stefanik, in this instance. And I'll tell you, Chuck, the thing that I've heard over the past several days talking with Republican sources on this very much mirrors what Jake has heard. And I'll put it like this. It's about the tactics. That's one thing that I keep hearing about. It's the way that Congresswoman Cheney has deployed these tactics of going up against Donald Trump, even though, as you point out, he is the one who kind of started this with his statements. There are those inside the party who would prefer that Congresswoman Cheney just ignore that, right, and just let that go. Because what's happening is she has created, in the eyes of some, this headache and this distraction for members who, for example, while they were home on recess were getting questions about this. And it keeps getting brought up in the media. I heard a lot about the narrative framing of the media about how, you know, Liz Cheney is suddenly this media hero for standing up to Donald Trump. And that has annoyed some Republicans, as well, who might still even agree with her behind the scenes or privately on what she is saying as it relates to, to former President Trump, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Cornell, look. Be a pollster here. Is Lindsey Graham right, that they have, they need Trump, Republicans need Trump to be competitive? Cornell? Ah, we got a little bit of froze there. Jake, I mean, how, how much belief is there on Capitol Hill that they actually need Donald Trump in order to succeed in 2022?
JAKE SHERMAN:
A huge amount. I mean, in the Republican conference, Cheney is an outlier by, by a huge margin. I mean, I would say that 85% of the House Republican conference not only supports Trump but comes from districts where Trump is, you know, in, in the 80% range. So massively popular figure still inside of the House Republican conference, which is why we're seeing this fight.
CHUCK TODD:
And Dany Pletka, I want to put up here pretty much every Republican that has voted against Donald Trump, either for impeachment or conviction, has been punished by the elected party leaders. And there is a disconnect here. The elected leaders seem to be almost uniformly pro-Trump. Ironically, the polling we've had and other people have had, and I think you've seen some of it, shows that Trump's hold on the party actually is fading. So this feels as if it's a, it’s a, like, a desperate sort of, you know, save themselves in the short term strategy here, is it not?
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Well, look. Without Donald Trump, the Republican Party doesn't have a, a leader, at least not one that has emerged beyond him. And so everybody is hanging desperately onto the individual because they haven’t got another guy or another woman. And, and again, you know, if the Republicans are going to move into 2020 and take back the House and take back the Senate, it has to be about ideas. It can't be about who Donald Trump endorses. They've got to figure this out. And I think the leadership is, is struggling with it. And they're blaming Liz Cheney for something that is, in fact, their own problem. They are the ones who perceive that they need Trump. It's not her who keeps bringing things back to him. It's him and them going along with it.
CHUCK TODD:
And Cornell, I think we have our tech gremlin. We, we finally got rid of the tech gremlin there. The question to you was, as a pollster, is Lindsey Graham right? Do they need Trump in order to be competitive in '22?
CORNELL BELCHER:
To that point, Chuck, I will give you the number 25, which is from the April's NBC polling. And that is 25% of Americans now ID themselves as Republican. They are not growing the Republican Party. In the Washington Post poll, I think it was 24%. So no, they're not growing the Republican Party. And it's hard to understand how, as a party, if you’re, if you are focused on things that, quite frankly, a majority of Americans don't believe, which is that the election was, that the election was somehow stolen, you’re not, you know, you're not a party of big, of big ideals. But I also think there is a bigger thing afoot here. And why? You know, my, you know, I don't often disagree with President Biden. But President Biden said there's a mini revolution going on in the Republican -- I mean, it's a mini civil war going on in the Republican Party. Chuck, the civil war is over. And the conservatives have lost. And they've lost, they’ve lost to tribalists. And they've lost to tribalists who want to promote a big lie. And so we've got to break down, what is the Big Lie? Because we talk about the Big Lie all the time. But what is fundamentally the Big Lie? The Big Lie is promoting something that undermines democracy, that actually says that the, the will of the American people is sort of, throw out the will of the American people. And it's fomenting sort of, you know, attacks on our government. Right now, we are at, sort of, national, our greatest national security threats are actually from this fomenting of these lies. So there becomes something, there’s something bigger at stake here than just, just partisanship. You know, with all this talk about civil war, I think back. You know, Ulysses S. Grant at the start of the Civil War said, "There are but two parties now, traitors and patriots." I'm afraid, Chuck, that we’re, we’re increasingly coming back to that time.
CHUCK TODD:
I, I fear, Cornell, that myself. I'm going to pause the conversation here. When we come back, we want to talk about a little bit of good news in this country and it has to do with the Covid pandemic. Could the worst finally be behind us? Dr. Anthony Fauci joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Even the most cautious of public health experts are now saying we're turning the corner on the coronavirus pandemic. There were days last week when Los Angeles, once overwhelmed with cases, reported no new deaths. New York and Chicago are planning to fully reopen in the coming weeks. The seven day average of new cases is at 43,000, that’s down from 260,000+ in January. And so many Americans have now been vaccinated, that there is confidence that any new spikes can now be contained. So, joining me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He is the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet the Press.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start what -- with the headline yesterday from the CDC about the virus spreading through aerosol form. And I'll be honest with you, Dr. Fauci, I had to check the date of the article to make sure it wasn't from a year earlier. This felt like a known thing. So now that there is a formal acknowledgment now of aerosol transmission, what does this mean for workplaces? What does this mean for schools, homes, things like this if we're going to have to live with this virus for another year or so?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I mean, as you mentioned, Chuck, correctly, this is something we've known for some time now. So when you have aerosol, then the distance between people becomes a little bit more problematic because, generally, when you say you have a certain distance that the droplets will fall and not reach a person. So, right now, this is going to have an emphasis on proper ventilation because if there is aerosolization, you're going to want to have good ventilation. That could hold true for schools and it could hold true for workplaces. The other thing, it also brings out the possibility that you're going to have to make sure that indoors when you have unvaccinated people, that people wear a mask. But that is already a CDC recommendation anyway. But when you have the ability of a particular virus to go further than just a few feet, clearly one of the most important things is proper ventilation and number two, mask wearing.
CHUCK TODD:
So what is this -- okay, let's get to mask wearing. Because this is where, you know -- at what point can we stop wearing masks outside? At what point, if vaccinated people get together, do you take the masks off? And are we going to essen -- but is the mask going to be something we have with us in a seasonal aspect?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, that's quite possible. I think people have gotten used to the fact that wearing masks, clearly, if you look at the data, diminishes respiratory diseases. We've had practically a non-existent flu season this year merely because people were doing the kinds of public health things that were directed predominantly against Covid-19. The Australians during their winter, same thing. They had almost no flu largely due to the kinds of things including mask-wearing. So it is conceivable that as we go on, a year or two or more from now, that during certain seasonal periods when you have respiratory-borne viruses like the flu, people might actually elect to wear masks to diminish the likelihood that you'll spread these respiratory-borne diseases.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, about a year ago at this point in time, there was some chatter that, “Okay, maybe we just went through the worst.” Summer was coming, and you'd have some people warn, “Look, even if things have died down now, we're going to have a rough fall and winter,” which, of course, is what we had. A year -- now, here we are a year later. What is the likelihood we could have a rough fall, or is that -- are we looking at molehills no matter how bad things get?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, the fact that we have vaccines right now, Chuck, is really a game changer. I mean, if we get, which we will, to the goals that the president has, has established -- namely if we get 70 percent of the people vaccinated by the Fourth of July, namely one single dose and even more thereafter -- you may see blips, but if we handle them well, it is unlikely that you'll see the kind of surge that we saw in the late fall and the early winter. That's the reason, Chuck, why we plead with people to get vaccinated because the larger proportion of the population that's vaccinated, the less likelihood that in a season like the coming fall or winter you're going to see a significant surge. There's no doubt about that. That's the reason why vaccinations are so important. That's the wild card that we have now that we didn't have last fall or last winter.
CHUCK TODD:
The president set 70 -- wanting 70 percent of the population vaccinated by July 4th. That seemed like a very easy bar to meet, considering we're about to open up vaccines for 12 to 15 year olds. Was that intentional? I mean, are we just not going to be able to get to 80 percent? Is that why we can't set the bar higher? Are we sort of baking in vaccine, a 25 to 30 percent vaccine hesitancy in this country?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
No, Chuck, you know what we do. You set a goal, the way the president has set. That doesn't mean you want to stop there. That means, if you can, you want to do more. It was the same thing with the goal of getting 100 million people vaccinated in the first 100 days. And we wound up getting 220 million people vaccinated in the first 100 days. So, you set a goal. I think it's a reasonable goal. I believe we'll get there. But, you know, as you get less and less people in the cohort of unvaccinated, it becomes more difficult to get there. When you have a large cohort of unvaccinated people, then you get your 3 to 4 million people per day. Right now, we're averaging about 2 million a day. So, if we do that, which I think we will, I think, I believe strongly that we will reach the president's goal of 70 percent of adults getting at least one shot by 4th of July.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, anybody that -- at this point, anybody that trusts you, trusts the government, trusts us in the media has gotten a vaccine. I think we -- it's safe to assume those that haven't have some trust issues. Maybe it's trust with their -- with the medical community, maybe it's trust with government, maybe it's trust with us in the media. So what is -- what kind of strategies do you think are necessary to get us up to that 80, 85 percent? I mean, we're seeing financial coercion, is that the way to go? Are mandates the way to go? What is the strategy going forward?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
I think it's two-fold, Chuck. One, you've got to get trusted messengers out there getting people to understand why it's important to get vaccinated for themselves, their family and the community. And you know, different types of people in different phases in life have different trusted messengers. It could be sports figures, it could be entertainment figures, it could be clergy or it could be your family doctor. That's the first thing: trusted messengers. The next thing is make it as easy as possible for people to get vaccinated, which we're doing now with the 40,000 pharmacies where you don't have to go online, you don't have to call up, you can just walk right in, in a walk-in and get vaccinated, and mobile units to go out into not easily accessible areas. So, I think those two are the major ways that we can get that last group of people who seem to be recalcitrant to get them to understand why it's so important to get vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
We got a new analysis from the University of Washington that indicates more than 900,000 Americans have died from this virus, so it's almost double what we were able to track. Just your overall reaction, and what does this -- what does this tell you about our ability to sort of track this virus that we may have undercounted by almost 50 percent?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, we've been saying, and the CDC has been saying all along, that it is very likely that we're undercounting. You know, the model says that it's a significant amount, as you mentioned correctly, 900,000. That's a bit more than I would have thought the undercounting was, but, you know, sometimes the models are right on line, sometimes they're a bit off. But I think there's no doubt, Chuck, that we are and have been undercounting. What that tells us is something that we've known. You know, we're living through a historic pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in over a hundred years.
CHUCK TODD:
That's true. And it looks like these numbers are going to make even 1918 look a bit smaller than what we dealt with now. Dr. Anthony Fauci, as always, sir, appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise and perspective.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- on this Mother's Day, how the pandemic economy has hurt women far more than it's hurt men. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It's Data Download time. On this Mother's Day, we wanted to look at the Covid economy's impact on women, and especially on this country's working moms. When things first closed down last year, unemployment for everyone was staggeringly high. The unemployment rate for men in April, 2020 was over 13%. For women, it was just over 16%. Thankfully, of course, things have improved. It's still higher than pre-pandemic levels, but the unemployment rate for men is at 6.3%, and women are actually doing slightly better right now with a rate of 5.8%. But for parents, the pandemic presented additional childcare challenges. In fact, you'll take a look at this. The percentage of fathers who stopped looking for work during the height of the pandemic went up two points, okay? But compare this with mothers. The percentage who stopped looking for work neared 30% in 2020, according to an analysis from the Pew Research Center. And keep in mind, each percentage point here represents more than one million people. And as daycare centers and schools shuttered and learning moved online, many parents became home school teachers on top of telework employees. And no surprise, that burden fell a lot more on moms than it did dads. In fact, last fall, teleworking moms were about twice as likely as teleworking dads to say they were responsible for, quote, "a lot" of childcare duties while also working. Fathers were more likely to say that they were responsible for some childcare rather than a lot. Friday's jobs report was a disappointment, and Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen conceded the recovery will be bumpy. The pandemic has shined a light on the unpaid work so many women, especially mothers, do every day. That will be of particular significance as Congress debates issues such as family leave in President Biden's infrastructure proposal. When we come back, what happened to that big jobs comeback we were all expecting? What does it mean for President Biden's big spending plan? Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is back. And I want to get at the jobs report because there was definitely a sort of team blue and team red response. And let me put up some of the examples here. Everybody had their own political agenda in responding to this jobs report. On the left, you had Pelosi, "Evidence is clear that the economy demands urgent action." Bernie Sanders, "Raise your wages. Pay decent benefits." Ilhan Omar, "Businesses that pay their workers fairly aren't having trouble finding workers." Then from team red, take a look at this. Steve Scalise, "Today's jobs report is terrible, but it's no surprise. Joe Biden is paying people not to work.” “April jobs report should be a wake up call for Joe Biden. His policies are out of touch." John Thune, "Democrats' throw money at the problem policies’ don't work." Danielle, I think, I get that everybody wants to make a political point here. I also think everybody's jumping to conclusions on one report given the same environment a month ago gave us nearly a million jobs.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
You know, look, you're right. One report does not make a year of economic data. On the other hand, I went to, I went to our Director of Economic Studies at AEI, Mike Strain, to ask him about this. And one of the things he told me that is worrying is that labor force participation now is the same as it was in June of last year at the height of the pandemic. What that tells us is there are jobs out there but people don't want them. And that, I think, is an important data point. There are jobs for people. They're not taking them. We need to figure out why.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, Cornell, I mean, that seems to be -- is it a wage issue? Is it a childcare issue? I think we're all trying to figure this out.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I think it's all of the above. But I also want us to take the long view on this and not play partisan politics about it. If you look at where America is, especially in comparison to some of our EU friends who are still, you know, some of them still in shut down, I think we're doing a pretty darn good job. And you look, you know, at NBC polling over the last year. So if you go back to the first of the year, you know, there's a 15 point difference in those who are thinking that the country's headed in the wrong direction. And there’s, we're moving to a ten point or so difference on the economy doing well. So, I think, Americans are feeling the economy is doing better. But you can’t say that wages are, you can't say we're not going to raise wages, but we're paying people too much to stay at home. It's got to be one or the other. We've got to raise wages and move people off the couches, into the homes.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, this also could spark an interesting immigration discussion, because we, I think, overall are going to find out we have a lot of labor shortage issues. Joe Biden this week reiterated something that I think means his bill could get a lot smaller on Capitol Hill. Let me play the bite.
[TAPE BEGINS]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm willing to compromise, but I'm not willing to not pay for what we're talking about. I'm not willing to deficit spend. They already have us $2 trillion in the hole.
[TAPE ENDS]
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Jake Sherman, that comment this week, Shelley Moore Capito's comment to Garrett Haake that, "Hey, this isn't our final offer, more's coming," the letters some Democratic elected officials sent to the Biden Administration worried about some of the estate tax proposals, is there momentum for a smaller bill that is bipartisan, that is actually gathering steam?
JAKE SHERMAN:
Depends on who you ask, Chuck. I think actually, this job report, living aside the economic reality, there's a political reality that frankly Democrats feel like they need to go big and go now. It's going to speed up the consideration of this package. And I have to imagine that this week, the White House has announced several senators are coming to the White House to meet. I have to imagine that Joe Biden's going to give his dance with Republicans kind of another couple weeks and then decide where he wants to go. But on Capitol Hill, among Democrats that I speak to, frankly, there's an overwhelming sense that they need to go big and they need to move quickly. And I think that they are not willing to give up on those things to have a bipartisan stamp on their infrastructure bill.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Hallie, Jake's getting at something that I've been wondering about. Are we going to see a divide between the Biden White House, who is going to be meeting with these bipartisan lawmakers this week, and Congressional Democratic leadership that wants to go big now?
HALLIE JACKSON:
So that's actually something that I've heard, Chuck, raised by folks that I've talked to on the other side of the aisle by Republicans as it relates to these negotiations here, because there is a sense among some that are familiar with this process that these negotiations are, as one person described them to me just yesterday, quasi-serious, right? So pick where you're going to emphasize, either the quasi or the serious. The idea that some of the GOP feel like it's almost like a back up plan to be talking with Republicans about this, in case Democrats can't do what you and Jake are talking about, which is go big as some of them want to do. The president is making very clear that he is open to compromise and willing to do that. But I do think there is some kind of, at least at this point, a bit of a hesitancy on the part of some Republicans to think that they actually would go a lot smaller. That said, of course, everybody's watching who we've always watched which are other Democrats who may not want to go big, who may not get on board with what the other, you know, 48, 49 Democrats in the Senate would like to do at this point, Chuck. And so that's a piece of the puzzle to watch, as well.
CHUCK TODD:
We had a big little bombshell nugget come out of the Biden Justice Department, Jake Sherman. We found out that some Washington Post reporters that had their phone records subpoenaed and that Trump's Justice Department some time in 2020 approved of this. I imagine we're going to see some Congressional investigation start on this immediately?
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yeah. And the two committees that this would come under, Chuck, are the Justice, Judiciary Committee and the Oversight Committee, both filled with Trump-aligned Republicans that will make it really interesting. People like Jim Jordan, who's the top Republican on the Judiciary Committee. I have to imagine this week we'll see Democrats announce something within the next couple days.
CHUCK TODD:
Dany Pletka, has Mitch McConnell got to worry about his back if Liz Cheney can't survive?
DANIELLE PLETKA:
I don't see Mitch McConnell worrying about his back. He is one of the finest tightrope-walking artists I've seen in politics. And I have a lot of confidence that he's going to figure this out. The real issue for him, I think, is trying to keep the focus on, you know, what Senator Cassidy called $7 trillion. Remind people, that money comes from somewhere. It doesn't grow on trees. And that's a good message for him. So no, I have a lot of confidence in him.
CHUCK TODD:
Dany Pletka, Hallie Jackson, happy Mother's Day to both of you.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, and that's just a reminder for everybody, by the way. Today is Mother's Day, if you haven't figure that out, various folks out there. Just a reminder, our latest episode of our streaming show, Meet The Press Reports, is on immigration and the Republican Party's evolution on the issue from Ronald Reagan to Donald Trump. You can watch Meet The Press Reports on NBC News Now Thursdays at 8:00 Eastern, and any time you want on Peacock. So, that's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. Enjoy hugging mom today in this vaccinated world. And have a safe Mother's Day. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.