KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: deadlocked. With just three weeks to Election Day, our new NBC News poll shows Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump tied in a neck and neck race.
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
The real measure of the strength of a leader is based on who you lift up.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I think she’s dumber than hell.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Voters revealing concerns Harris would continue on the same path as President Biden, as positive perceptions of Trump’s presidency grow.
SUNNY HOSTIN:
Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
There is not a thing that comes to mind.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Steve Kornacki will break down the latest results. Plus: storm surge.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Former President Trump has led the onslaught of lies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
A rising sea of disinformation threatens relief efforts in the aftermath of two deadly hurricanes.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
She did nothing as people struggled and drowned, and day after day no one came.
FMR. PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
The idea of intentionally trying to deceive people in their most desperate and vulnerable moments. And my question is, when did that become okay?
KRISTEN WELKER:
How will it impact voting in these storm-battered states? My guests this morning: Speaker of the House Mike Johnson and former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News White House Correspondent Monica Alba, Leigh Ann Caldwell of the Washington Post, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. We begin with our brand new NBC News poll and the headline: with just over three weeks until Election Day, former President Trump and Vice President Harris are now tied among registered voters, 48 to 48%. The five-point lead Harris held after the presidential debate a month ago is now gone. Steve Kornacki will take us inside the numbers, including the enormous gender gap, just moments from now. Donald Trump's approval rating, now 48%, is higher than his job rating was at any point during his presidency. By 43% to 41%, more voters are concerned that Harris will continue President Biden's approach than are concerned that former President Trump will continue his first-term approach. On the trail, Vice President Harris has struggled to answer how she would be different than her current boss.
SUNNY HOSTIN:
What do you think would be the biggest, specific difference between your presidency and a Bidency – a Biden presidency?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Well, we are obviously two different people. And we have a lot of shared life experiences, for example, the way we feel about our family and our parents and so on. But, we’re also different people, and I will bring those sensibilities to, to how I lead.
SUNNY HOSTIN:
Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
There is not a thing that comes to mind in terms of – and I’ve been a part of most of the decisions that have had impact.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, NBC News has learned that the vice president's team has been discussing ways she could put more distance between herself and President Biden in the final weeks of the race. Harris is leaning into one key difference: her age, 59. On Saturday, she released a letter from her White House doctor, quote, "Vice President Harris remains in excellent health. She possesses the physical and mental resiliency required to successfully execute the duties of the presidency."
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
So today, I released my medical records, as has I believe every candidate for president of the United States, except Donald Trump in this election cycle. And it's just a further example of his lack of transparency.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former President Trump's campaign recirculated a letter from his former White House physician, now Republican congressman Ronny Jackson, as well as a letter from a personal physician from last fall. But the 78-year-old former president has not released his medical records, though he pledged in August to do so. Meanwhile, former presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are hitting the trail for Harris; former President Obama urgently telling black men they cannot sit out this election with a woman at the top of the ticket.
FMR. PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
You’re thinking about sitting out or even supporting somebody who has a history of denigrating you because you think that’s a, a sign of strength? Because that’s what being a man is? Putting women down? That is not acceptable.
KRISTEN WELKER:
At a rally in Coachella, California last night, part of a tour aimed at showing Mr. Trump can draw a crowd in blue states, the former president ramped up his dark rhetoric and false claims.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
She’s imported an army of illegal alien gang members and migrant criminals from the dungeons of the third world. They come from the dungeons of the third world. Anyone who orchestrated an invasion of America can not lead America. Kamala Harris, her reign of terror ends the day I take office. She’s finished.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Illegal crossings at the border are at their lowest levels in nearly four years, after the Biden administration's new restrictions on asylum. And for more on our brand new NBC News poll, I am joined now by national political correspondent, Steve Kornacki, to take us through all of the numbers. Steve, boy, this is a big one.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Yeah. Kristen, I mean, numbers say it. It is a tie game here weeks before the election. And it's that shift. Our last poll taken in the wake of that September debate, Harris had opened up that advantage over Trump. Gone in our new poll. What goes into that? What's behind that? I think this one is revealing. This is the basic perception voters have of these candidates. Is it positive, is it negative? Now, these are not great numbers for either one. Trump 43% positive, 51% negative. He's eight points underwater, you might say. But look at Harris, exact same positive score and that negative number almost in the exact same place. And this is it. The last time we polled this question after that debate, Harris had really made up ground in this area. Look, she had a positive --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
STEVE KORNACKI:
– rating, 48% to 45%. So that advantage has all in the last few weeks in our poll washed away for her. Then there's some issues, some characteristics here. These are advantages in red here that you see for Trump now versus September. On the immigration and the border, we asked voters who would be better on this. In September, Trump had a big advantage. It's gotten bigger. On inflation and the cost of living, Trump's advantage now hits double digits. Now on the question of who represents change, Harris had the advantage in September. She still does, but lower.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So significant because voters are telling us change is a critical issue for them. Not the direction you want to be going in there, Steve.
STEVE KORNACKI:
No, absolutely not. And maybe a reason for that too is, remember, she is the VP in an unpopular administration. Look, we asked Joe Biden's policies as president, "Do you think they're helping or hurting your family?" Look at that. Almost two to one say hurting more than helping. His job approval rating is in the low 40s. And then here's the twist: when you ask folks, "When Trump was president, were his policies helping or hurting?" look at that difference. 44% say helping, 31% say they hurt. So retrospectively --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
STEVE KORNACKI:
– Trump is getting some numbers here, maybe he didn't even get when he was president. And then this is in perspective the challenge that Harris faces. These are the modern vice presidents like Harris, incumbent vice presidents running while their boss was still in office. And just look, '88 George Bush Sr., his boss, Reagan, had nearly a 60% approval rating, Bush won. 2000, Clinton was at 60%, Gore didn't win but he won the popular vote, we can say that. And here's Harris and Biden – just look how different the atmosphere is. Biden's approval rating in our poll, only 43 points. She's running in a totally different atmosphere than previous incumbent vice presidents did. And then we could talk about issues, this is an interesting way. Typically in the past we've just given folks a list of issues, said, "Are they important?” –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Here we've asked the question, "Is this issue so singularly important that it's the entire basis of your vote for president?" And you could see, abortion comes in number one there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that's so significant. This is the first presidential election after Roe v. Wade was overturned. Hugely significant, abortion is at the top. Usually we're talking about the cost of living as being the energizing factor.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Absolutely. And I think the Harris folks, if they're looking for good news in this poll, it's this. Because this issue is her biggest advantage over Donald Trump. And you could see, as you say, potentially a motivating factor. And one more note here, just got to show this, the gender gap. We always talk about gender gaps in presidential races. But how about this: Trump by 16 among men, Harris 14 among women. That is a 30 point difference between those two. If that happens on Election Day, that's one for the history books. We've never seen it that high.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, an historic gender gap for sure. All right, Steve Kornacki, as always great stuff. Thank you.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is the Speaker of the House, Republican Congressman Mike Johnson of Louisiana. Mr. Speaker, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Hey Kristen, great to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's great to have you. I want to start off by talking about the hurricane response. Obviously, it has upended life in parts of the Southeast. FEMA says that it does have enough funding for now. Different story for the Small Business Administration, which provides low-interest loans to renters, homeowners, and beyond. SBA is saying it could run out of funds within mere days, Mr. Speaker. You've said it's premature to call Congress back to get more funding. But has the possibility of leaving small business owners in a lurch changed your calculation?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Congress will not leave small business owners wanting. I am a small business owner and I’m from a hurricane-prone state, Louisiana. We're kind of experts in this disaster recovery. The SBA loan, as you indicated, is a small interest loan that helps people bridge the gap and get back on their feet. But importantly, about that program, it is a supplement to private insurance and other disaster relief funding. And so, by definition and necessity, it takes a few weeks to calculate it. Now, Congress is expected to come back. We're already scheduled to come back right after the election. We're 23 days out from the election. That will coincide almost perfectly, I think, with the time for most of these applications to even begin, and many of them to be processed. Now, FEMA has received thousands of applications already, and they're going through that laborious process of affirming and confirming it. But when the time is needed, we will cover the needs of small businesses. Congress is all on board. Remember, one day before Helene made landfall, we appropriated $20 billion additional to FEMA so they would have the resources to address urgent needs. But I'll say this, this is very important to note, as of yesterday, roughly 2% of those funds had been distributed. We need the Biden-Harris administration to get about the business of distributing the funds that Congress has already set aside. That is a really important thing. People are hurting. I've been on the ground in the most affected disaster areas: Florida, North Carolina. They really need the help.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, just to be very clear, are you ruling out calling Congress back to get more funding, even for the SBA?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No. Congress will do whatever is necessary to cover the needs of the people. But see, what happens after a big storm like this, the magnitude of these storms was enormous. I mean, it's on the scale almost of Katrina, which we're still recovering from 20 years later in Louisiana. I know this process well. But the states have to go and calculate and assess the need, and then they submit that to Congress. So that takes some time, especially when you have a storm this broad and this wide affecting so many people. So, as soon as those numbers are submitted to Congress, we will act. And it'll be bipartisan, and we'll cover the needs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Mr. Speaker. Let's move onto another big issue: abortion. You just saw in our new poll there's an historic gender gap in the election. In addition to that, the top motivating factor in this election is abortion. Donald Trump has proudly said he takes credit for overturning Roe v. Wade. He also says he would veto a national abortion ban. Let me put this to you. If you are again speaker of the House, do you pledge not to hold a vote on any legislation that would ban abortion?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, Kristen, listen, this is really important what you just did there. We watched four minutes, Steve Kornacki showing all the numbers, that Donald Trump is surging ahead, that Kamala Harris is dropping in the polls. The only bright spot for her was abortion, and that's what Steve just said. That's good news. When abortion is your only good news in an election, we need to be talking about what people really care about. I've been traveling around the country, okay? I've done campaign events in over 224 cities and 40 states. I'll do many more this month. I'm on the road again this morning. Everywhere I go, Kristen – and I go to blue states, and blue districts, swing districts – that the number-one concern on everybody's mind is the cost of living. Right after that is the wide open border that the border czar, Kamala Harris, enabled and put together. All the catastrophe that comes from that. They're worried about the weakness on the world stage that Biden and Harris have projected, which has gotten us into the most dangerous situation since World War II. That's what matters to people. That's why Trump is surging in the polls, and that's why we are going to win thisKRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Speaker, just to the substance of my question. I understand there are other big issues, but on this big issue, which is critical to a lot of voters as well, do you pledge, if you are, in fact, Speaker of the House again, not to bring any legislation up for a vote that would ban abortion at the federal level?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
We're nowhere in a universe where that would be possible right now. The next commander-in-chief, Donald J. Trump, has said this is an issue in the states right now. That is exactly what the situation is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But he said he would veto –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Look, before you can have political consensus –
KRISTEN WELKER:
He said he would veto –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Let me – you want me to answer the question? Let me answer the question. Okay, before you can have political consensus on a divisive issue, you have to have cultural consensus. Remember, politics is downstream from culture. We don't have that right now. There's a lot of difference of opinion out there in the states, and we've got to work through all that. And those of us who are pro-life and believe that life is sacred and that everybody should have the chance to be born and to live – I mean, I'm the product of a teen pregnancy myself. This is my life story. I believe that that's an important issue. But I've got to build a cultural life – I have to build a cultural consensus. We're nowhere near that in this country. We know that. So there's a lot of work to do. Donald Trump said this is a state's issue. He's going to be the commander-in-chief. That's the end of the story.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Speaker, you co-sponsored the Life at Conception Act. You are the speaker of the House. The Life at Conception Act would have effectively banned abortion at the federal level. So, I think a lot of people want to know where you stand on this, because Donald Trump has said that he would veto a national abortion ban. So, can you say –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
So, Kristen – So, Kristen, let me –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– that you wouldn’t move to try to ban abortion at the national level? I understand there's not a consensus, but would you move to ban abortion at the national level?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
I couldn't do that even if I wanted to, Kristen. I have 434 colleagues. I mean, I'm a Bible-believing Christian. I believe in the sanctity of life. That’s – My view doesn't change. But there's no way I could bring that bill in Congress right now. We wouldn't even – we couldn't even get a – I don't know, it would be a very small vote right now, okay? Even among Republicans. So, we have a lot of work to do. The pro-life organizations and groups are out there doing what they do. We need to show that we care for women at all stages of pregnancy and all stages of life, and that's what we are. We're for families, we're for IVF, we're for everything that allows for that, and we need to take care of these ladies who are in difficult situations with their pregnancies. That's what the states are doing very effectively. Crisis pregnancy centers and others around the country, care pregnancy centers, there's a lot of great work being done. And we need to have dialogue and conversations about this issue. But there's not a bill coming to Congress because we're nowhere near any consensus to do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're saying a lot of states are doing this effectively. Some women have come forward and said their lives are at risk because of some of these laws in place at their states. Let me move on, though. We're three weeks from Election Day. Former President Trump continues to make false claims. Let me read you a couple of them. Venezuelan gang members have overrun an apartment complex, he says, in Aurora, Colorado. Haitian migrants in Springfield, Ohio, are eating cats and dogs. FEMA funds have been redirected to house migrants. Mr. Speaker, all of those claims have been debunked. If former President Trump is so confident –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, they haven't.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– in his policies –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, they haven’t.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, they have. But if Mr. - if former President Trump is so confident in his policies, why not make the argument along policy lines? Why say things that have been debunked by local officials?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
President Trump is making all sorts of arguments constantly. He works 24 hours a day. I saw that Kamala Harris issued her medical records. Congratulations. Donald Trump's health is on display for the entire country every hour of every day. He has more stamina, and mental acumen, and strength than any political figure in – probably in the history of the country that I can remember. He goes nonstop. So, what he's talking about is the things that the American people care about. These FEMA dollars going to resettle migrants, that is a fact. I mean, that is an objective fact. What he's talking about is not the Disaster Relief Fund, but it is another fund that FEMA used to resettle all the illegal aliens that they let across the open border.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, I –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Kamala Harris, the border czar, was the engineer of that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do have to – the FEMA funds were not redirected to house migrants. That has been debunked. It's a separate fund. FEMA has said as much.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
That's right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But just to the substance —
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
That’s right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– why not make the argument –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
But, it's important. Hold on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– on the substance of the policies, Mr. Speaker?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
I’m trying to do that. Let me do that. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, as its name implies, should be working on federal emergency management, not resettling illegal aliens that are violating federal law. They're sending them around the country, they're putting them on taxpayer benefits. And that has enraged the country. And that is why Kamala Harris' numbers are dropping in the polls. And she just said in her own words, you saw the tape there, there is no difference between her and Joe Biden. The Biden policies, Bidenomics, all the things they champion are destroying the country, and everybody knows that –
KRISTEN WELKER:
We should – we should note –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
– and that's why Donald Trump is going to be elected. Republicans are going to win the Senate and the House.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, we should note that FEMA funds were actually redirected on Donald Trump's watch to deal with the migrant issue. Let me ask you, you mentioned the medical records –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, ma'am –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should Trump--
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, wait a minute. Hold on. Wait a minute.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Wait, wait. Facts are important. That is a new – that is a new program that started in 2020 under Joe Biden. That funding wasn't necessary under Trump's administration because we secured the border. We didn't invite illegal aliens and dangerous people into the country. That's a Biden-Harris policy, and everybody knows it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, just to – it did happen under Donald Trump's watch. But let me just ask you about medical records since you raised them –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, he didn’t. No Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should Donald Trump –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, we did not.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– release his medical records?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
That is a brand new account.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should Donald Trump release all of his medical records, Mr. Speaker?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Should Donald Trump release all of his medical records?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
He has. He issued – he issued the records of his physicians. Kamala Harris issued her medical records as diversion because she's desperate, because she's sinking in the polls. Donald Trump's health is on display. Everyone in America can see it. The man works nonstop. He never quits. He probably sleeps four hours a night. He doesn't require as much sleep as the average person. He's an unusual figure. And this is the strength that we need in a time like this. We're in the most dangerous moment since World War II. You have to have strength. You have to have a steady hand. You have to have a commander-in-chief that our allies respect and our enemies fear. They do not fear Kamala Harris. They do fear Donald Trump. That’s what people are going to vote on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, just be very clear, he hasn't released all of his medical records. He released two letters. Should he release the results of the cognitive tests? He said –
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
It’s unnecessary. He’s on display every minute.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So it's unnecessary? You can see that – He didn't release his medical records. You don't want to know things like his cholesterol level, whether he's dealing with any issue that we may not know about, if he's going to be commander-in-chief?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Kristen. Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And he also said he would release cognitive tests, which he aced.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Kristen, listen to your question.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should he release that?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
The American people – Kristen, the American people don't care about the cholesterol level of Donald Trump. They care about the cost of living and the fact they cannot pay for groceries, because Kamala Harris and Joe Biden's policies have put them in that situation. The medical records are irrelevant. Let's talk about things that the American people care about. That's why Donald Trump is surging in the polls, because he's doing this on stages, in interviews, nonstop, around the clock, and Kamala Harris has done nothing. Every time she talks, her numbers go down, because she is uniquely unqualified to be the commander-in-chief at one of the most dangerous times in the history of the country. That's a fact.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, very quickly, let me just ask you: I'm going to be speaking with Congresswoman Liz Cheney just moments from now. She's been very outspoken – obviously, an opponent of Donald Trump, as well as House Republicans. She's expressed concerns that if Trump doesn't win, that you would not certify the election results. So here and now can you say: If Donald Trump does not win, do you commit to certifying the election results?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Kristen, I'm a constitutional law attorney. I've dedicated my life – dedicated my life, and demonstrated every day that I will uphold the Constitution. We are going to do our job in Congress. A free and fair and legal election will be certified, and that is our hope and prayer across the board. Of course, I’m going to follow the Constitution. I'm going to follow the law. That's my job. That’s my duty. I took an oath to do that, and I will fulfill my oath.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Regardless of who wins you'll certify the results?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Regardless, of course it – Yes, if the election is free and fair and legal, and we pray and hope that it is. There's a lot of work being done to make sure that's true. I think this one's going to be so large there'll be no question. I think Donald J. Trump is your next president, and that can't happen soon enough.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When people hear you say, “If it is free and fair,” does that not undermine people's confidence in the election results, Mr. Speaker?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, it shouldn't. No, it – No, it shouldn't. Because what I'm – what I'm saying there is what the Constitution provides, what the Supreme Court has affirmed time after time, what history has affirmed. Listen, Democrats have objected to slates of electors in every single election this century when a Republican president has won. Every single time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, they all conceded. And yet they have conceded.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
Yes. And that’s the point.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former President Trump has yet to concede in 2020.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
That’s – no, the point is the process works. We have the peaceful transfer of power. We did in 2020. We will in 2024. Everybody can sigh and take a deep breath. Our system is going to work. We have the greatest system in the history of the world because we live in the greatest country in the world. But that last part is in jeopardy right now. This is a decisive election, and everybody knows it, and that's why we're going to be -- have given the chance to run this country again and we're going to turn it around, and I can't wait.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Speaker Mike Johnson, thank you so much for your time this morning. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
You got it. Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, she's one of the most high profile Republicans supporting Kamala Harris. Former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, and joining me now is former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, author of “Oath and Honor: a Memoir and a Warning.” Congresswoman Cheney, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you for being here.
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, thank you for having me. Always, always great to be here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's great to see you. Let's start right where I left off with House Speaker Mike Johnson. And I'll put it this way: President Biden has said that he doesn't know if there will be a peaceful transfer of power in 2025. You just heard how the House Speaker answered my questions about whether he would certify the election results. Do you have faith that this election will be free and fair and that there will be a peaceful transfer of power?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I do not have faith that Mike Johnson will fulfill his constitutional obligations. And if you just look at what he did in 2020, he knew – and he knew with specificity – that the claims of fraud that Donald Trump was making and that he was repeating, he knew those to be false. We had very clear and specific conversations about that. He knew that courts had specifically found that those claims were false. He knew they weren't true. He also knew that what he was urging Congress to do, in terms of filling out the votes of millions of Americans, he knew with specificity that that was unconstitutional. He was told that not only in discussions with me, but also by the House Republican counsel. He signed his name to a brief filed with the United States Supreme Court that made those claims he knew to be false. So, he has a record repeatedly of doing things that he knows to be wrong, that he knows to be unconstitutional in order to placate Donald Trump. And frankly, you know, you saw that sycophancy just now on display. So, I think that it is – it's very concerning. I do think that Donald Trump has consistently said again and again and again, you know, in the last few months that this election, you know, is going to be rigged and that if he loses that's why. So, I think it's very important that the Republicans not be in the majority in the House come January 2025.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when it comes to the possibility of a peaceful transfer of power, are you optimistic that there will be?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Yeah, look. I think that Donald Trump is not currently in the White House, so he does not have the ability to exercise the control he did in 2020 and 2021. I hear repeatedly from people like Mike Johnson, like JD Vance, this claim that somehow we had a peaceful transfer of power. Donald Trump sat and watched for over three hours while our Capitol was brutally attacked by a mob that he sent there, while police officers were brutally beaten. And Donald Trump refused to tell them to go home for over three hours. So, anybody who is interested in the truth ought to go look at those videos. We did not have a peaceful transfer of power in 2021.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just this week, Senator JD Vance was asked five different times if Donald Trump lost the election. He refused to say yes. Polls show that millions of Republicans share that same view. How do you reach those voters, those Republicans?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Yeah, I mean – look, I think, Kristen, when people write the history of this period, the Republican elected officials who know it's false, who continue to spread the lie, will be among those who are shown to just be really complicit in this attempt to unravel the republic. And so, they are spreading this lie. They know it isn't true. If we are going to be a nation of laws, we abide by the rulings of the courts. And Donald Trump had the opportunity, 61 out of 62 courts ruled against him. And he was told repeatedly throughout this period that what he was saying was false. So, the fact that now you've got the Republican Party, the leaders of the party, who are in the grips of, you know, it seems to me just to be cowardice, that they are afraid of Donald Trump, but that they are willing to perpetuate his lies at the expense of their duty to the Constitution, tells you something about the real damage that's been done to the Republican Party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You told my colleague, Savannah Guthrie, last year, quote, "A vote for Donald Trump may mean the last election that you ever get to vote in." That is an incredibly dire warning. Congresswoman, what exactly did you mean by that?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
You know, I think people really need to look very carefully at what Donald Trump will do if he were ever to be in the Oval Office again. The extent to which, you know, and he has said repeatedly that, you know, he believes he will be immune. Certainly the Supreme Court ruling, whatever they thought they were doing, Donald Trump believes he will be immune for anything he does once he's in office. He will not respect the rulings of our courts. And people have to realize, our courts can't enforce their own rulings. So, if a president refuses to carry out his obligation to do so, then we are no longer a nation of laws. Donald Trump will ignore Congress. He will appoint people, people like Mike Flynn, for example, who just, you know, 36 hours ago, Mike Flynn was at an event where he was asked whether or not the president's opponents should be executed. And he basically said, "Listen, yes, I'm going to unleash the gates of hell." These are the kinds of people that Donald Trump will be putting in place. The people that stopped him from his worst desires last time around won't serve again. So –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Like Mark Milley comes to mind, who, according to Bob Woodward's new book, “War,” called him a fascist. Would you go that far to call him a fascist?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I have tremendous respect for General Milley. And I see no reason to disagree with that assessment.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about something Donald Trump said, the Donald Trump that the world got to know back in 2016. He was asked back then during a debate with Secretary Clinton whether he would accept the election results. Here's what he said.
[BEGIN TAPE]
CHRIS WALLACE:
One of the prides of this country is the peaceful transition of power, and that no matter how hard fought a campaign is, that at the end of the campaign, that the loser concedes to the winner. Are you saying you're not prepared now to commit to that principle?
DONALD TRUMP:
What I'm saying is that I will tell you at the time. I'll keep you in suspense, okay?
FMR. SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, Chris, let me respond to that because that's horrifying.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congresswoman, do you regret standing by him at the time and for all of those years after?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Yes. I do. And I think that, you know, we've now actually seen him carry that out. And so for, you know, certainly people after what he did on January 6th, to act as though you can have confidence in him, you know, that simply is just not credible.The other thing I think people have to realize is what he did on January 6th, you know, watching that brutal attack, that's depravity. And it's just also fundamentally cruel. It's the same kind of thing that drives him to lie to people about where they can get hurricane relief. I mean, think about the fact our fellow citizens are in dire straits. They're in dire need. People's lives are at risk. And he's lying to them for his own political gain about where they can get relief. That kind of cruelty makes somebody unfit for this office.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the Supreme Court has now ruled that he has immunity for official acts that were taken while in office. I'm curious, Congresswoman, do you still have faith and confidence in the Supreme Court?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I think that the Court took far too long to issue that ruling. I think that they should have taken this up when Jack Smith asked them to initially. And I think they got it wrong. And I think that Justice Sotomayor in her dissent, in the description that she gives of the danger that Donald Trump poses, she got it right. Now, you know, I'm a conservative. I'm somebody who has supported those Supreme Court justices in the past. Many of them are friends of mine. You know, actually Justice Kagan was one of my professors in law school, my favorite professor in law school. But I know the conservative justices too. But I am deeply concerned about things like the role that Ginni Thomas played, and Ginni Thomas' continued refusal to say that she accepts the rulings of the courts. So, and I'm also concerned about, you know, the flag flying upside down at Justice Alito's home. I think that's indefensible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have you lost faith in them, though, Congresswoman?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I am – I think it's very important that the Court stand apart from politics. I do have some real concerns about recent activities and rulings. But I think we need our courts – both our Supreme Court as well as the lower courts – to play the kind of role that we've seen, frankly, the vast majority of judges play since January 6th.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Back in 2020, you said Kamala Harris when she was announced as President Biden's running mate, you called her a “radical liberal” whose policies, quote, "are completely inconsistent with what most Americans believe in and stand for." I know that you don't view this as a policy election. You've been very clear about that. But are there policies that Kamala Harris supports that you also back?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Absolutely. And I would say the extent to which, you know, she and I certainly have had our disagreements. But when you look at the whole range of issues, for example, with respect to support for Ukraine, with respect to the fact that, you know, she is saying that the United States has to lead in the world. Donald Trump is embracing tyrants. Donald Trump loves tyrants. He idolizes them. JD Vance and Donald Trump both support a very isolationist foreign policy and an erratic and a chaotic foreign policy that will leave us much less safe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you regret any of the language that you used to describe Harris and Biden at the time? “They would dismantle our freedom, destroy our history,” the type of language you're using now about Donald Trump?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I think certainly those were harsh things that I said. I think that they reflect, absolutely, that we had a policy disagreement on a series of issues. But I also think that's why it's so important for people to focus on the fact that I am supporting her now, and that there's such a broad coalition that's coming together to support her. And it's based in part on who she is, on the fact that she will lead with a sincere heart, on the fact that she is somebody who's dedicated her life to public service. And looking at what Donald Trump poses, the kind of chaotic, absolute depravity that he would bring if he were ever to be elected again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congresswoman, do you still consider yourself to be a Republican? And can you take us inside the conversation you had with your father when he decided to vote for Kamala Harris?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I'm a conservative. And --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Not a Republican?
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I'm a conservative. I’m not a member of this – I do not consider myself a member of Donald Trump's Republican Party. And, you know, my father and I speak every day. And he has really, you know, from the very beginning of this process, understood as much as I do – even more in the beginning, probably – the threat that Donald Trump poses. And so, you know, this was not any kind of a surprise. And look, I think the fact that it's not just him, but the numbers of, you know, senior officials, national security advisors, secretaries of defense, that you have seen who served in the Trump administration who say this man is unfit. And Republicans can try all they want to get people to ignore that, to look away from that. But I think that's a very important thing for the voters to recognize.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congresswoman Liz Cheney, I know we'll be seeing a lot of you out on the campaign trail. Thank you so much for being here this morning on a very busy time for you --
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Thank you --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– appreciate it.
FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, positive feelings about Vice President Harris are falling in our latest poll. The panel's next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News White House correspondent Monica Alba; Leigh Ann Caldwell, co-author of The Washington Post's Early Brief and anchor of Washington Post Live; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher; and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. Thanks to all of you for being here on a big poll day. Monica, let me start with you. Forty-eight to forty-eight. This race is deadlocked. I know you've been working your sources inside the Harris campaign. What are they telling you about a potential shift in terms of how she answers this critical question: How she's going to be different than President Biden?
MONICA ALBA:
It's a major question, Kristen. And certainly the Harris team maintains that that sugar high that was seen after she took over the top of the ticket, after the convention, the debate, that that was going to wear off, that that was going to come back down to earth. So they're saying now that that's why she's running the race that she is, what she likes to call as the underdog. But there are certainly some indicators in this poll that help us understand some of the things that they're weighing actively about shifting here. And one of those is this issue of the Biden presidency being a bit of a drag on her own candidacy. And she's tried to be very respectful. She's fiercely loyal to him. But we know that there are certain areas where she would like to say, "I could do something different. I would do something different." And in particular after those answers last week that she tried to clean up in the moment, but certainly didn't satisfy a lot of people on, we know that there are things that she can be talking about and trying to subtly shift that and hint at that. But, there is very limited runway left. So they know that that's something she will have to get into in the next couple of days. But she's also going to be doing that while trying to earn the support of Black men, have a blue wall battleground blitz. She's going to be in Pennsylvania twice in the span of three days this week, in Michigan twice, in Wisconsin. So they're trying to juggle all of that. But there is certainly an awareness to that being a big challenge.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leigh Ann, Monica's reporting hits at the heart of the challenge for the Harris campaign, which is that our poll shows that former President Trump's approval rating right now is higher than when he was in office. It's higher than President Biden's. Why do you think voters are looking back at the Trump presidency at this point in the way that they are and what are the implications?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Well, I'm not really sure. Maybe Cornell can talk better about what the meaning of that exact question is. But I will say that that's very common with all presidents. They're always more popular when they aren't in office. People have a nostalgia, a belief about what happened. One thing with Donald Trump is that he's not on Twitter anymore. News is not covering his rallies from wall to wall anymore. And so one thing that the Harris campaign is trying to do is to remind voters of the chaos that a Donald Trump presidency will bring. The Trump administration believes, despite the fact that there are a lot of good economic indicators right now, that people remember that still their eggs cost less when Donald Trump was president than they do now. And that's why you're going to see Kamala Harris on the campaign continue to hit this economic message because that's really what independent voters seem to be caring about the most. And that's why she is talking about her economic plan first and foremost.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Can I jump in on that?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Please.
CORNELL BELCHER:
So, look, the 48, 48/51 is, sort of – 48 approval, 51 – to a certain extent is where the horse race wants to go, right? And when you look at sort of the internals of the NBC poll, all of his supporters are now, in our polling, approving of his job, right? That's part and parcel of what you have happening. And when you go underneath that, look at what's happening underneath that, approval rating's 72% among rural voters. It's underwater among suburban voters. So some of those dynamics are still there. But that 48/51, I've got a feeling that's where the election wants to go. And consistently in the polling, he's a 47, 48% candidate, not only in polling – an ABC poll has out today has her, I think, 51, him, like, 47 or 48 also. So, this asymmetric sort of conversation about what she's got to do I think is interesting because he has a ceiling.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It never goes above 47. We've talked about 47%, Lanhee, and yet Republicans are coming home. The non-MAGA Republicans seem to be coming home. But he can't get above that 47%. What does that tell you?
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, you are seeing coalescence amongst Republican voters. And I think that the self-identified block of Republicans who are, quote, “non-MAGA” is definitely decreasing. I think there's a few reasons for that. First of all, I do think that there is a recognition amongst the issue that Republicans care most about, which is immigration. And if you look at this poll, every poll that we see, it is immigration. There's a lot of contrast on that issue, and I think Trump has successfully driven contrast on that issue. And those voters are coming home because of immigration. I would also say that there's a positive view, I mean, to your point, about his administration's policies on the other issue they care about which is cost of living. And so that contrast on issues is quite significant. That is coalescing Republicans. And I think that is the single reason why his numbers have improved significantly over these last several weeks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the good piece of news for Vice President Harris, Leigh Ann, is the fact that abortion is at the top of the list in terms of what voters say is going to turn them out to vote.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah, absolutely. And this is why, in part, you see this gender divide in this polling. Abortion is a big issue for Kamala Harris. She is winning this issue. And that's what not only Democratic voters but it seems like some independent voters really care about this too. She's talking about freedom and the freedom to control your own body, which is really important. Meanwhile, Donald Trump is really trying to expand that gender divide by focusing on men. Everything that he has done in his campaign has been, you know, to increase his support among men.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's an historic gender gap, Monica. So that is where this battle's going to be fought and won, it seems.
MONICA ALBA:
Absolutely. And we certainly saw it with former President Obama's comments in the last couple of days specifically aimed at men with his message also that he delivered to Black men. This is an area where the Harris campaign knows they're going to be targeting and laying out more new ads specifically with Black men talking about why they support the vice president. They're going to be leaning into that. But on abortion, as well, and this point with the gender gap. After Labor Day, the Harris campaign decided, "We're going to have a reproductive freedom event every single day in a swing state until the election." And they view that as really a key part of their strategy.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Reproductive rights is Republicans chasing the car and catching it. The dog chasing the car and catching it, right? And I said this going into the last midterm: it is a mobilizing issue on the left in a way we have not seen before. So we're going into another election where I think Democrats are going to over-perform because of the mobilizing effect of abortion rights.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, much more with all of you coming up. But when we come back, two deadly storms fueled by climate change leave widespread destruction. So what lessons have been learned? Our Meet The Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. In 2005, Hurricane Katrina ravaged the southeastern U.S., claiming nearly 1,400 lives and becoming one of the deadliest storms in U.S. history. In the wake of the tragedy, former President Bill Clinton joined Meet the Press to discuss the growing impact of climate change and its role in intensifying natural disasters.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRES. BILL CLINTON:
I don't think any person with a straight face can tell you that Katrina was caused by global warming. But what we do know, what the evidence shows, is that there is an increase in the number and severity of bad weather events all across the globe. We know that. So – and that will continue. Keep in mind in the last decade, 12 blocks of ice the size of the state of Rhode Island have broken off the South Pole. We now have some significant evidence that the North Pole and, even worse, the icecap on Greenland, the massive island of Greenland, are thinning. This is going to lift the water levels. It's going to complicate the rebuilding of New Orleans. If we don't reverse it within 50 years, we'll lose 50 feet of Manhattan island. That one of these little countries I'm working with, the Maldives, the water will just roll over it. We'll never recover it. So I think that we – we just need to face the fact that the climate is changing and this is one of the consequences.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
To help those who have been impacted by Hurricanes Milton and Helene please consider giving to organizations like these. When we come back, former President Trump is pushing more false claims about immigration and hurricane relief. What will the impact be? Our panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is still here. Cornell, Monica just raised the point that former President Barack Obama out in Pennsylvania campaigning for Harris with a very strong message to Black men: “Get out and vote. It's not acceptable to sit on the sidelines.” Some people said, "Uh, that seemed a little bit like lecturing." Do you think that energizes or could it backfire?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Look, I – I will say this: There is not a better, sort of more popular spokesperson in – sort of in this country than – than Barack Obama. If you have African American men who are sitting on the fence – by the way, historically 14% of African American men vote Republican. I'm less worried about the African American men, that 14% or 12% voting Republican, than I am those not turning out. And if you look at places like Milwaukee, since he was on the ballot in 2012 you've seen the Black turnout there drop significantly behind that of – of white turnout. What I would say to them is these men who are still on the fence, give them an economic message of how you're going to fix their – their economic angst, and I think they'll come around to you.
LANHEE CHEN:
I think what the NBC survey shows is that for convincible voters at this point, it is the economy. It's not abortion. It's not immigration. It's the economy. And so that needs to be the core of the argument for Harris in the close. And it – it frankly is a Trump strength. So I think it's going to be a challenge for her because I think the case that he makes on the economy is, "Listen, look back to when I was president." And as the poll also reveals, people have a much more positive impression of the economic policies during Trump's first term than certainly those of Biden’s.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
And Trump is absolutely, as we're talking about this gender divide, focusing on men, not just white men but also Black and Hispanic men, too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
One of the campaign ads that he's running the most in these final weeks is an anti-transgender ad. And his campaign tells me that that is not a base – play for the base. That's a play for Hispanic and Black men who are more culturally conservative, and they think that they can get them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Trying to chip away at Harris' lead there. Monica?
MONICA ALBA:
On the economic message specifically, that's why you're going to start to see former President Bill Clinton out on the trail heading to rural areas in Georgia starting today, where I'm told no Harris surrogate has stepped foot, let alone a former president. Because they think he can have some of these smaller events where he likes to be the explainer-in-chief –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
MONICA ALBA:
– and talk about some of this economic messaging that they think could be helpful, again, in those rural areas. You're going to see former President Obama continue to be out there. You're going to see former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton start to do some events in the closing stretch. But there's an open question too about what role former First Lady Michelle Obama might play in these final days. She had a really key message at the DNC, imploring Democrats to do something. And the question is she's been more behind the scenes when it comes to voter turnout, will she be there in the final days? I'm told yes, but that's something major to watch too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And there is no surrogate who is more popular than former First Lady Michelle Obama, arguably on both sides of the aisle. Guys, thank you. Fantastic conversation. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.