CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday. The Battlegrounds. With the midterms now just 23 days away, the candidates in the Senate races that will determine party control are making their final pitch to voters and facing off on the debate stage. In Georgia…
HERSCHEL WALKER:
That was a lie and I’m not backing down.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
My opponent has a problem with the truth.
CHUCK TODD:
Pennsylvania
MEHMET OZ:
We should have had a debate already.
JOHN FETTERMAN:
I actually have a record in fighting crime.
CHUCK TODD:
And Wisconsin.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
You have to keep violent criminals in jail.
MANDELA BARNES:
It’s absurd when people say that I’m soft on crime.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll speak with two Independents...Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Utah's Independent Senate Candidate Evan McMullin. Plus, Trump's Testimony.
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON:
He must be held accountable.
CHUCK TODD:
The January 6th Committee issues a subpoena for former President Trump to testify about his role in the attack on the Capitol.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
We are obligated to seek answers directly from the man who set this all in motion.
CHUCK TODD:
While new video reveals Congressional leaders pleading for help.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Why don’t you get the President to tell them to leave the Capitol?
CHUCK TODD:
And new questions emerge about how the Secret Service handled advance warnings of the threat. I'll talk to Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida, who sits on the committee. And, political polarization. Why the state of Wisconsin best represents the deep divide playing out in our national politics. My reporting on the ground behind what's driving the red and blue divisions. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Amy Walter, Editor in Chief of the Cook Political Report, Politico "Playbook" co-author Eugene Daniels, Former North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory, and María Teresa Kumar, President of Voto Latino. Welcome to Sunday. It's "Meet the Press."
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. There are just over three weeks to go until Election Day, nearly 2 million Americans have already voted, just another 120 million to go. So with Republicans still favored to win control of the House, both parties are keeping their attention - and money right now- focused on the battle for the Senate - in particular these nine battleground states. These are the nine closest Senate races in the country because they’re trying to keep their top targets in play. In order to win back control, Republicans have to flip one of the Senate seats currently held by the Democrats, in Georgia, Arizona, Nevada or New Hampshire - while holding onto all of their seats that are in play here in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina are open seats, Florida, and Wisconsin featured incumbents. On the Democratic side, Nevada Senator Catherine Cortez Masto is the most vulnerable Democratic incumbent ... Republicans are also trying to pick off Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock but have struggled a bit as allegations about domestic abuse and now abortion seem to saddle Republican Herschel Walker. Georgia now, by the way, has the highest price tag in the country of any midterm race - more than $140 million dollars spent on ads since the primary. By the way, that total is more than what both Bush and Gore spent in the year 2000 if you want to see how much funding has grown exponentially. So the number here will get even bigger, especially if this Georgia race goes into another overtime as it happened two years ago. This time the runoff will be on December 6th. On Friday night - the candidates met in what may be their only debate - where Walker again denied that he paid for the mother of one of his children to have an abortion:
[BEGIN TAPE]
HERSCHEL WALKER:
As I said, that's a lie. I said that was a lie, and I'm not backing down. And you have Senator Warnock people that would do anything and say anything for this seat, but I'm not going to back down because this seat is too important to the Georgia people for me to back down right now.
MODERATOR:
You've been vocally pro-life, supporting a ban on abortions without exceptions. Would you support a complete ban on a national level?
HERSCHEL WALKER:
First of all, see, that's not true, either. I said I support a heartbeat bill. And I said that has exceptions in it.
MODERATOR:
Do you believe there should be any limitations on abortion set by the government and you have 60 seconds?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
I think that the women of this country and the women of this state woke up one summer morning, and a core protection that they've known for 50 years was taken from them by an extremist Supreme Court. And I stand where I've said I stand in the past, that a patient's room is too narrow and small and cramped, a space for a woman, her doctor, and the United States government.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, early voting in Georgia starts tomorrow. Let’s turn now to a few of the Democratic opportunities here - just two Republican incumbents, as I noted, are in battleground races, that’s in Wisconsin and Florida ... but nominees essentially handpicked by Donald Trump in three open races have made those states more competitive as well. The cycle's second-highest ad price tag is in the state of Pennsylvania; more than $95 million dollars has been spent on ads just since the primary in May. My colleague Dasha Burns had exclusive interviews this week with both Senate candidates. NBC News agreed to Democrat John Fetterman's request to use a transcription program during the interview, because he's still experiencing some auditory processing issues from a stroke he had in May. Outside, though, of releasing a letter from his cardiologist on June 3rd, the campaign has denied requests for his medical records.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DASHA BURNS:
Don't voters deserve to know your status now?
JOHN FETTERMAN:
Being on -- in front of thousands and thousands of-- of people and having interviews and getting around all across Pennsylvania, that gives everybody-- and the voters decide, you know, if they think that it's-- it's really the issue. Dr. Oz likes to make fun of me that I might miss a word. But, you know, he's missed, you know, two words, and that is yes or no on the national abortion ban.
DASHA BURNS:
One of your campaign staffers said that John Fetterman wouldn’t have a stroke if he had, quote, “ever eaten a vegetable in his life.” You’re a doctor, you’re a heart doctor. You of all people understand what John Fetterman is going through, better than most. Why would you allow your campaign to mock him like that?
MEHMET OZ:
I have tremendous compassion for what John Fetterman is going through. I mean, not only do I as a doctor appreciate the challenges, but I know his specific ailment because it’s a specialty area of mine.
DASHA BURNS:
Doesn’t the buck stop with you? Isn’t that what a leader accepts?
MEHMET OZ:
Oh, I accepted responsibility, and I deal with issues as they come up. But he has his own set of issues. We should have had a debate already.
DASHA BURNS:
But would you ever talk to your patients like this?
MEHMET OZ:
No.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
In Wisconsin, the race between Republican Senator Ron Johnson and Democratic Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes comes in at $76 million spent on ads in just two months since the primary. This puts Wisconsin third on the overall spending list. Many of the ads have focused on the issue of crime, at least ads coming from Republicans - and in a debate this week, those attacks by Johnson continued:
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
We need law enforcement person and the problem with the whole defund movement, which has been a big supporter of is it dispirits law enforcement, they're having a hard time recruiting members.
MANDELA BARNES:
No police officers in this country were more dispirited than the ones who were present at the United States Capitol on January 6.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I immediately and forcefully and repeatedly condemned the violence on January 6, unlike my opponent who basically just ignored the 570 riots the 2,000 officers injured in the summer riots, and he incited the Kenosha riots.
MANDELA BARNES:
He called those folks patriots. He called them tourists. The people who were beating up police officers in the United States Capitol, the people that were there to protect him.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Mandela Barnes was endorsed in the primary by Senator Bernie Sanders. It helped vault Barnes to lead in that primary. Meanwhile, Senator Sanders has been cautioning Democrats to stay as focused on economic issues in the final weeks of the race as the party has been on the issue of abortion rights. And Senator Sanders joins me now. Senator, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I want to focus on your– this was an op-ed you wrote about a week or so ago, and you've said this in other programs. So walk me through what you'd be doing right now if you're in one of these battleground races. You've said abortion rights should be front and center. How would you be talking about the economic issues?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, number one, what the Supreme Court did was totally outrageous. It is women who should control their own bodies, not the government. Number two, too many people have fought and died to defend American democracy. We cannot let right wing extremists undermine what is so important to this country, and that is the right of all people to participate in the political process. Thirdly, and terribly important, we live in a moment, Chuck, in which we see an economy where the people on top are doing phenomenally well, while working people are struggling. You got more income and wealth inequality today than anytime in the history of the United States. Three people owning more wealth than the bottom half of the people in our society. That is insane. So what I think is Democrats should talk about the economy. I think they should contrast their views with the Republican positions. I believe, and most Democrats believe, that at a time when half our people are living paycheck to paycheck, we should raise the minimum wage to a living wage. No Republicans support that. I think we should make it easier for workers to join unions. Republicans don't support that. I believe that when your billionaires start paying a nickel, in some cases, in federal income taxes, yeah, we should demand that the rich and large corporations start paying their fair share. Now, what Republicans are saying, Chuck, which is quite amazing to me, is that in the midst of these difficult economic times for seniors and for other people, you know what they say? We've got to cut social security. We've got to cut Medicare. We've got to cut Medicaid. I think that that is grotesque, and I think Democrats have got to hold them accountable for those reactionary positions.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, do you accept the criticism that the American Rescue Plan passed in early 2021 contributed to the current inflation issue we're dealing with now?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No, I don't. Inflation right now, as I'm sure you know, Chuck, is an international problem. In Germany, it is 10%. U.K. it is 10%. Canada it is 7%. Inflation globally is caused by the pandemic and the break in supply chains. It is caused by, in my view, the war in Ukraine, obviously. And it is also caused by incredible corporate greed. And I hope everybody understands that when you go to the gas tank, you fill up your car today, the oil companies are making huge profits. The food companies are making huge profits. They– prescription drug, high pharmaceutical industry are making huge profits. We've got to deal with that issue. And Republicans won't, by the way.
CHUCK TODD:
We have a majority of economists now that believe a recession in the next 12 months is likely. First of all, do you think the Federal Reserve is currently helping or hurting the situation?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I think they're hurting the situation. I think it is wrong to be saying that the way we're going to deal with inflation is by lowering wages and increasing unemployment. That is not what we should be doing. This inflation thing is a real issue. It is a global issue. But at a time when working families are struggling when the people on top are doing phenomenally well, I don't think you go after working people.
CHUCK TODD:
So you wouldn't be raising interest rates anymore at this point. The damage has already been done, in your view?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to a couple of races, and I want to get your take on a few things. John Fetterman in Pennsylvania, look, you had some health issues on the trail during your presidential race. You did– you were asked to release more of your medical records. You didn't release all of your records, but you did release quite a few letters from your doctors. And, frankly, you were on the trail being who you are and going all over the country. I think folks saw that your health was in good shape. Do you think Mr. Fetterman should be releasing more of his medical records, since he's asking for a six-year term here?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, Chuck, you know, I don't know enough about John's medical situation. But I think the contrast is very clear. I do know John Fetterman; I've known him for years. And John is somebody who is going to be a real fighter for the working class of this country. He is prepared to take on the greed of corporate America. And I hope very much he joins us in the United States Senate.
CHUCK TODD:
In Wisconsin, Mandela Barnes getting hit hard on the issue of crime. You've heard the phrase "defund the police," he's not alone. A lot of Democrats are being hit with these ads. How would you be handling these attacks?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, obviously it's not true, the attacks on him. I know that Mandela believes very strongly that we need good law enforcement, non-racist law enforcement. And I agree with him on that. I think at the end of the day, if we're going to solve the crime problem, we're going to solve the terrible drug problem that we're seeing all over this country, we've got to get at the root causes of those problems. And that means we have a better educational system, that we make sure that our young people have the decent jobs that they need.
CHUCK TODD:
Democrats are not spending a lot of resources and time on two races in particular: Ohio and Florida, those Senate races. Do you think that's a mistake?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, I think that Mr. Ryan in Ohio is running a very strong campaign, and I've known him for years. And this is a guy who is prepared to stand up, and has been prepared to stand up for working class people. And again, to me, Chuck, all over this country the issue is pretty clear. Are you going to support a party that wants to give more tax breaks to the rich, cut social security and Medicare or Medicaid? Or are you going to support people who are prepared to stand up for working people? Now, I'm not here to tell you that the Democrats are perfect. Believe me, they are not. But on virtually all of the issues, including climate change, the choice is pretty clear. Democrats are far, far more preferable in Florida, Ohio, all over this country. And I hope very much that we can retain control of both the House and the Senate.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Senator, you have not– during 2016 and in 2020 you made a big deal about wanting to court Trump voters. I'm curious your perspective on this now, in an era where a majority of Republican voters think the 2020 election was stolen, and that Joe Biden is somehow an illegitimate president, are these voters still worth courting in your mind?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, I think there are some extreme right wing voters who are racists, who are sexists, who are homophobes, xenophobes. No, and I don't think you're going to ever get them. But I also think there are millions of people in this country, working-class people who look at Washington and they say, "You know what? I'm falling further and further behind. I can't afford health care. I can't afford to send my kids to college. I can't afford the outrageous costs of prescription drugs. Who is listening to me?" And I think what we need is a Democratic Party that has the guts to stand up to them and say, "Yeah, we're going to take on the greed of the insurance companies, and the drug companies, and Wall Street." And I think if we do that, some of those people, I'm not saying all, will say, "You know what? I'm going to stand with the Democratic Party because on these economic issues, they're far preferable to right wing Republicans."
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Bernie Sanders, the Independent senator from Vermont who does caucus with the Democrats, I imagine we're going to see you on the campaign trail a little bit in the next three weeks. Maybe we'll catch up with you again.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Yes, you will.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you. Let me turn now to the unexpectedly close Senate race in Utah where another Independent here named Evan McMullin who's taking on a two-term Republican Senator Mike Lee. In a poll this week, Lee is up by just four points, 41-37. A large number of voters are still undecided. It's been that way in this polling really for months in this race. Lee and McMullin will square off in their only scheduled debate tomorrow night. And unusually Lee went on national television earlier this week begging Senator Mitt Romney, the other Senator in Utah, to endorse his reelection. Romney has been pledging neutrality. Evan McMullin joins me now. And for what it's worth, we invited Senator Lee on the program as well. But he declined to appear for this Sunday. We hope to ask him again. Mr. McMullin, welcome back to Meet The Press.
EVAN McMULLIN:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with what we heard from your opponent this week. Let me play what Senator Lee said on Fox News with Tucker Carlson.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. MIKE LEE:
I'm asking him right here again tonight right now. Mitt, if you'd like to protect the Republican majority, give us any chance of seizing the Republican majority once again, getting it away from the Democrats who are facilitating this massive spending spree in a massive inflationary binge, please get on board. Help me win reelection. Help us do that.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Have you spoken to Senator Romney about his neutrality? And do you expect him to stay neutral in this race?
EVAN McMULLIN:
Well, I haven't spoken to him about it. But I deeply respect Senator Romney's leadership in the Senate for Utah and for our country. And I respect and appreciate his decision to stay out of this race. And, you know, that's about all I can say. I don't know what his decision will be going forward. But yes, I would expect him to stick with the decision that he's made. But I haven't spoken with him about it.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Lee is implying essentially that a vote for you is a vote for the Democrats to keep their majority. Is he right?
EVAN McMULLIN:
Look, no, because I am running as an Independent. And look, I'm building a coalition of Republicans, Democrats, Independents, and members of third parties to better represent Utah and to help lead our country forward. And I'm not going to Washington to join a party or to caucus or to play the party power game. I'm going to represent our coalition. And that's a commitment that I've made to our coalition, that I'll maintain my independence.
CHUCK TODD:
All six years? If you serve all six years, the entire time you're in the Senate, you will not join either party's caucus giving them officially your vote.
EVAN McMULLIN:
No, Chuck, I will not. I will maintain my independence. I will not caucus with either side. And by the way, Chuck, I think that this will give Utah an added value of influence in the Senate that it just doesn't have. Certainly we have in Senator Romney someone who has gotten a lot done for our state and our country, working across party lines to get things done. With Senator Lee, we get none of that. He sits on his hands until it's time to vote no. And then he goes and complains about our country on cable news. And I'm just not going to do that. I think that we've seen well enough over the past year or two especially that the senators in the chamber who are willing to act with greater independence, serving their constituents, standing up to party bosses, standing up to extremist factions and special interest groups, they have the most influence in the chamber. They're more influential, I think, even than the party bosses. And I want that for Utah. And I know we'll do a great deal of good with it serving this way.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, there's easily a scenario that could happen where you win your seat. Republicans are sitting at, have 50 Senate seats, Democrats have 49, you're the one. And I want to ask you this question. You tweeted this in January of 2021. You said, "Not only should Mitch McConnell never be majority leader again, he shouldn't be minority leader either. It's time for something new." This eventuality may be in your hands. The scenario I painted may make it where you decide whether Mitch McConnell is majority leader or minority leader. If you're in that scenario, are you just going to stick with being an Independent and let the chips fall where they may and know that Mitch McConnell's going to be majority leader?
EVAN McMULLIN:
Well, look, the parties are going to decide who they choose to lead them. I won't be part of that as an Independent. And whatever scenario, Chuck, the parties in Washington and others, they're going to have to figure out what this means for them on their own. I'm committed to maintaining my independence. I'm building a cross-partisan coalition. I also believe that our country just needs more independent leaders who will stand up to party bosses on both sides, the special interest groups who own too many of our politicians, and also to the extremist factions that I think have far too much influence in Washington. I'm committed to doing that. I've made a commitment to this coalition that I'll maintain my independence. And as I said, for the parties and the bosses in Washington, they'll have to decide what this means on their own.
CHUCK TODD:
A couple of bills I want to ask you about, uh, if you were in the Senate: the Inflation Reduction Act. You have said there's some good things in it. And there's some things you didn't like. But at the end of the day, sometimes you got to vote on a compromise. Would you have voted for that legislation or not?
EVAN McMULLIN:
Not as written. There are things I like in it, and other things that I didn't. I didn't like the fact that I don't think it did much to actually reduce inflation, especially in the short term. And I don't think our leaders are doing enough on that front. Here in Utah, our inflation rate is worse than in most other states. My family and most others here are being crushed by inflation. And we need leaders and need a Senate who is going to focus on actually delivering more results to lower inflation. I did like the fact that it started to allow Medicare to negotiate on prescription drugs. We pay far more for prescription drugs than we need to in America. That comes as the result of people like my opponent, Senator Lee, taking lots of money from big pharma, special interest groups, and then preventing taxpayers from negotiating lower prescription drugs in a free market. And that's got to end and again why I'm running to replace Senator Lee.
CHUCK TODD:
On the issue of abortion, in 2016 when you were running for President, you had said you'd want to see Roe v. Wade overturned. When you and I talked on a podcast a couple months ago, your concern was that the overturn was creating some extreme laws and you were worried about those. Do you think there needs to be federal legislation that deals with, that sets some sort of minimum standard? And would you support Lindsey Graham's bill that, I guess one would argue, is attempting to do that, banning abortion after 15 weeks, but allowing it up till then?
EVAN McMULLIN:
Well, look, for every, any piece of legislation that has a chance of passing the Senate, I'll give it a close look. But the reality is that most of these bills, if not all of them, being introduced since the Supreme Court's decision have been messaging bills that have either been intended just to make a political point, or worse to divide Americans. Chuck, I'm committed to finding a more constructive way forward on this issue. It's tearing the country apart where extreme bills are being passed around the country, some of which my opponent has supported, which would not allow exceptions for the victims of rape or incest, even for example. I think that's wrong. And we've got to stand up to those extremes. But more importantly, we've got to find a more constructive way forward. And that's about making contraception more available, doing more to support women, children, and families, and improving education on this matter. And that's where I'll focus my time.
CHUCK TODD:
And I want to just close, one more time, there is no scenario, where if you win this Senate seat, you will caucus with the Democrats if it means they would be in the majority.
EVAN McMULLIN:
I will not caucus with Democrats or Republicans. I'm going to maintain my independence because I think our country needs that, and certainly our state needs that. I've made that commitment. And for party bosses and others in Washington, they're going to have to figure out what this means for them. But I'm committed--
CHUCK TODD:
All right.
EVAN McMULLIN:
--to maintaining my independence. And that is what I'm going to do.
CHUCK TODD:
Evan McMullin, the Independent candidate from Utah. Really appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective with us. Stay safe on the trail.
EVAN McMULLIN:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, the January 6th Committee voted to issue a subpoena to former President Trump. I'm going to speak with a committee member, Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida about why they waited until now to call him to testify.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. In its final hearing before the midterms, the January 6 Committee voted to subpoena Former President Trump. And if prompted, a 14-page response which didn't include whether he was actually going to comply with the subpoena. Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida is a member of the committee, and she joins me now. Congresswoman Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with something you said yourself on Thursday. I'm going to put it up on screen. You said this, "The big lie, the pressure campaigns against state officials, the pressure campaign against the Department of Justice, and his vice president, the fake electors, summoning the mob: all of this demonstrates President Trump's personal and substantial role in the plot to overturn the election." You said this on Thursday, but arguably, by the end of July your committee had proven all of this. And it sort of raises the question, why wasn't the Trump subpoena issued at the end of the summer, in July or August? Why now?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Well, as you know, we have been very methodical about our investigation. And we've been gathering additional information, and we've gotten new information, even since the July hearing. And we have always pursued this investigation, calling in whoever we need to as the information and the facts detail. And so that's why you see that we have asked the central figure in the effort to overturn the 2020 election to turn over documents, as well as provide sworn testimony.
CHUCK TODD:
If he doesn't comply, are you going to ask the full House to send a criminal referral to the Justice Department, to force him to comply?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I won't engage in any hypotheticals at this moment, as the subpoena hasn't yet even been served. But I will say is that with previous subpoenas, what you've seen the committee do is be very deliberate, and take the response to our subpoenas on a case-by-case basis. And I imagine that we will also do that, because we understand the seriousness of the charge of our committee.
CHUCK TODD:
Why not subpoena Vice President Pence?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think that's comparing apples to oranges. The former president was the perpetrator, a central figure in orchestrating the effort to overturn the 2020 election, whereas Vice President Pence was somebody who was a key figure in stopping that effort from being successful. And he, through his council, has been engaged with the committee. And we will continue to engage with him, and make a determination if necessary in the future, as it relates to the former vice president.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, when you think about Former President Trump, Former Vice President Pence, I assume if you had Pence's word on what happened in the conversation stream and the president, that he'd be a bit more of a credible witness than the former president. So why not put him under oath?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Well, we've had quite a few people who worked for Former Vice President Pence appear before our committee, and provide us with the information they had of those conversations. At this point, we are interested in hearing from the former president so that he may respond. What I will also note, though, is that whether people supply with the subpoena and come before our committee or not, it's not as if they are absolved of their role in the January 6 violent attack on the Capitol. It's just that other people will articulate what their actions were and what their motivations were.
CHUCK TODD:
The Secret Service- for me in your hearing this week, the Secret Service obviously did not come out looking very good. Do we need an additional special investigation, special inquiry into the actions of the Secret Service, not just in and around January 6, but the decision – when the former head of his detail, Mr. Ornato, became the former president's deputy chief of staff – I guess in short, did the Secret Service become a rogue agency?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
As a part of our investigation, we've looked at all of the law enforcement agencies' response to January 6. And as you know, we are still going through tens of thousands of documents that the Secret Service have turned over recently. I look forward to us calling back in some of those Secret Service officials who have knowledge about what happened. And putting them under oath this time, now that we have additional information, to gather their perspectives. And then as far as recommendations, that would be included in the report.
CHUCK TODD:
Are we going to see this report- I know we're not going to see the report before Election Day now. And we could have a debate about whether the voters should, sort of, see this before Election Day. But are we going to see a report before the end of the calendar year? I mean, you're under a clock here, as I assume you have to turn in something to us, right?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
You will see a report before the end of the calendar year. But let me just say that this isn't about the next election this fall. This is about whether the sanctity of American elections here on out will be marred with violence and with fraud. Because in a case where that happened, these people were not held accountable. And so, that's the purpose of this committee, is to ensure that we tell the full truth, allow government officials to make changes to the system, to improve our guardrails, allow the American people to make better decisions about who they elect, and also to allow DOJ- encourage DOJ to do their job.
CHUCK TODD:
Realistically, how much more time do you think the committee would need to finish this investigation up? Look, January 3rd is January 3rd, I get that. But if that deadline weren't there, how much more time would the committee like?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Well, there is so much information out there. And if we were allowed to proceed, I think that we should. Because there are a lot of processes and institutional changes that need to be made so that we can guard against anybody, irrespective of political party, ever attempting to overturn a US election again.
CHUCK TODD:
So bottom line is this investigation isn't done even if the committee is forced to end on January 3rd?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think that we will present a report. And what I look forward to is seeing our recommendations be implemented. And if you'll note, the 9/11 recommendations took several different administrations, as well as different congresses, to be implemented across almost over a decade. And I imagine and I hope that that will happen with the recommendations that come out of the report we produce before the end of this year.
CHUCK TODD:
Of course we hope we can implement these changes before the democracy itself is at risk again. Stephanie Murphy, Democrat from Florida. Thanks for coming out and sharing your perspective with us.
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, the issues of crime and abortion. They are dominating the debates and the airwaves in the contests that are going to decide Senate control. The panel is next to discuss.
CHUCK TODD:
Back now with the panel. And yes, it's a good one. Amy Walter, the editor-in-chief of The Cook Political Report. We have Politico Playbook co-author Eugene Daniels here. Former North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory is joining us for the first time as an official NBC News contributor. Welcome aboard, sir.
PAT McCRORY:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
And María Teresa Kumar is also an NBC contributor, and she's president of Voto Latino. But this is not your first rodeo with us. Alright – I actually want you guys to, I want to – each party thinks they've identified the Achilles' heel of the other party. Crime: Republicans hitting Democrats. Abortion: Democrat hitting Republicans. So I want to look at the defenses. Here's how – in the three big races – how Democrats are handling the crime issue in debates and interviews in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Georgia. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
I have supported our police officers. I've called them and I've prayed with their families, like those officers lost in Cobb County. One thing I have not done, I've never pretended to be a police officer, and I've never, I’ve never threatened a shoot-out with the police.
LT. GOV. MANDELA BARNES:
140 officers injured, one crushed in a revolving door, another hit in the head with a fire extinguisher, another stabbed with a metal stake. So this talk about support for law enforcement, it's not real.
LT. GOV. JOHN FETTERMAN:
We funded the police. We funded the police and created a strong partnership between the police and the community. So I'm the only candidate that I'm actually running on my record on crime, whereas Dr. Oz has never done anything about crime except going around and running a bunch of commercials, lying about my record.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Amy, what's interesting to me is that there are three different ways that they are handling the crime attacks there, right? Mandela Barnes going to January 6, Warnock sort of hitting a little bit at Walker, and then Fetterman going, "Hey, I was the mayor. I've actually fought crime."
AMY WALTER:
Right, “I’ve actually been” –
CHUCK TODD:
Who's doing it best?
AMY WALTER:
– which is consistent, which is consistent also with their themes of their campaigns, right? In Wisconsin, it's, "Ron Johnson's not who you think he is," or, "He's looking out for interests that are not your own. He says he's protecting you. He's really looking out for himself. Or in the case when law enforcement needed his help, he wasn't providing it." So it's part of a bigger, stronger theme. But Democrats have known that the crime issue was a challenge for them since the very beginning of this election. They talked about it a lot after 2020. The very first ads run in a special election in New Mexico, special election for the House in a very Democratic seat, what did the Democrat do? One of her first ads was having sheriffs and police officers standing behind her. So this was – they've been playing defense on this for quite some time. And they're hoping that in the last few weeks of this election, people are going to be spending as much time looking at the weaknesses of their Republican opponents than on the challenges that they have.
CHUCK TODD:
Eugene, who's done this best? I feel like Warnock's been more aggressive at inoculation here, really than Fetterman and Barnes, which may be why those two races are closer.
EUGENE DANIELS:
Yeah. I think Warnock, right? You look at Warnock, his ability to stick to his guns, so to speak, on this issue. And as Amy was saying, it connects with everything else that he's been talking about, right? When he said, "I call and I pray," that is a reminder to people that, "I am a reverend at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia," right? That is a callback, and it's on purpose. And that is one of the reasons why he has been winning the whole time. Even before the abortion allegations for Walker, he has been winning this race. That's where that's going to go.
CHUCK TODD:
María Teresa, Mandela Barnes — I think, arguably you could've seen this coming — he didn't do as much inoculation as Warnock did.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
He didn't. But I do think that he was reminding folks in his last debate – I don't think enough people watched – but in his last debate, the difference between he and Ron Johnson. One of the conversations we're not having is that this is an opportunity for the Democrats to own police enforcement. And I say this because Ron Johnson on that stage said that the FBI was planting evidence against him. And he's talking about the larger picture of when the FBI went into Mar-a-Lago and, you know, legally took away all of President Trump's archives. And all of a sudden, these Republicans and Republican leadership flipped on it, and said it was an FBI sting job. That is not the party of law enforcement. And if anything, it's undermining a really basic institution.
AMY WALTER:
But let’s be– let’s really clear. Like, Fetterman, and in the race– why am I blanking on the candidate?
CHUCK TODD:
Mandela Barnes.
AMY WALTER:
Yes, thank you – Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, they both have records that are liberal. And they can be used to make them look out of sync. This is not random.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to bring Pat in here, because we had a mass shooting in Raleigh over the last three days. And you and I were talking before the show. You said, you know, what's been interesting is you haven't seen Cheri Beasley, the Democratic nominee, she hasn't hit Budd on guns or some of these things, where maybe there's some vulnerability.
PAT McCRORY:
Well, as a former mayor, it's one of the issues I ran on for 14 years as mayor of Charlotte. And I split crime into three areas: one is the riots, mainly by anarchists who want to destroy things, the small groups. And at the time, Republicans had the upper hand. You know, Kamala Harris –
CHUCK TODD:
Until January 6th?
PAT McCRORY:
That's what I'm about to bring up. Kamala Harris and them were bailing out Hollywood stars, bailing out rioters who were burning down police stations. But then January 6th, Trump wants to pardon rioters who attacked police. We break even on that. Then we have the mass shootings. I'm shocked that the Democrats aren't bringing up guns. But everyday crime, the Democrats are on their heels. And they deserve to be on their heels. You look at in cities, in LA, San Francisco, my own city, the Democrats are weak on DAs and enforcing crime.
CHUCK TODD:
We could keep going on crime, but I want to pivot to the Achilles' heel issue on the other side, and it is abortion. Here's some answers how Walker, Johnson and Oz are handling the abortion issue.
[BEGIN TAPE]
HERSCHEL WALKER:
I'm a Christian, but I'm also representing the people of Georgia, and that's who I represent. So what the people of Georgia stand for, I'm going to stand with them.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I proposed a one-time, single-issue referendum to decide at what point does society has the responsibility to protect life?
DR. MEHMET OZ:
I'm giving you a bigger answer than yes or no. I'm telling you I don't want any federal rules limiting what states do with abortion. It should be up to the states.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Eugene, we're all over the place here. Even EvanMcMullin kind of like, “Maybe I’ll do” – I mean, nobody knows on this issue what to do if you're on what was originally the pro-life side of this issue.
EUGENE DANIELS:
Right. That was always going to happen. We talked about this on Meet the Press last year when we were talking about this issue. And it was very clear that they had caught the car. They were going to catch the car, and what was going to happen after? And this is what happens, kind of this hodgepodge of different ideas of what voters might want to hear at that time. And you know, when you look at abortion versus economy, versus crime, versus – this is a very choose your-own-adventure election, right?
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't it? Yeah.
EUGENE DANIELS:
People can just pick and choose whatever they want, even within the issue themselves.
CHUCK TODD:
The five swing voters, what do you think they care about: crime or abortion?
AMY WALTER:
Right. Although what we're seeing too, the Kaiser Foundation had polling on this that found if you're in a state with abortion restrictions --
CHUCK TODD:
You care about it more.
AMY WALTER:
– you are much more motivated than if you're in a state that doesn't. And so if you're in a traditional blue state – Oregon, California, etc… – you're less motivated by it than some of these other states.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I'm just going to pause the discussion. We're going to come right back. Up next, though, why the state of Wisconsin best represents our deep divide that plays out in our national politics. A little taste of my reporting from the ground and what's driving the red and blue divisions in a state that I like to call patient zero for polarization.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It is no secret the country is polarized. All you have to do is look at Washington by the numbers. Take a look at the U.S. Senate here: 50/50. The House is almost as close, 220-212. And here's a number that should really be a bit disturbing to folks. Believe it or not, 44 states have voted for the same party for president in five of the last six elections. Take a look at the six states that don't fit that category. So to better understand these national divisions, I traveled to Wisconsin, a state that truly represents political polarization in our country, and what we've undergone in recent years. I sat down with two former Wisconsin governors of opposite parties who both knew how to win big in this divided state back in the '90s and the early aughts. In 1994, incumbent governor Tommy Thompson, he won by more than 35 percentage points and all but one of Wisconsin's 72 counties. And this came in between two presidential wins in the state for a Democrat – Bill Clinton at the time. In 2002, Democrat Jim Doyle's margin was narrower than Thompson. But he still carried 43 counties, including many in the rural north of the state, something that would be basically unheard of in this current political climate. So what's changed? What does it tell us about the nation as a whole?
[BEGIN TAPE]
TOMMY THOMPSON:
Jim and I, you know, are friends, but I would never -- in modern-day politics -- I would not want to debate him. I wouldn't even want to talk to him because I'm afraid somebody from my right would run against me. Jim would feel the same way. Somebody from the George Soros left would come against him.
So we have become paralyzed because we have redistricted to such an extent that a Republican state's going to be a Republican state, a Democrat – except on a statewide ballot, – but individual districts. And that has become the partisan parochialism that it is today.
CHUCK TODD:
Sir, would you disagree with anything he just said there?
JAMES DOYLE:
No, I agree. But I would add this: One of the reasons Wisconsin is so much the center of this now is you look at the demographics of the state and the big divisions that have happened in the country — rural and small town against cities; big, expanding economies like Madison against rural economies that are struggling — those have happened all over. It's just in Wisconsin when you add those up it's a 50/50 state. So, you know, I was the attorney general when Governor Thompson was governor, and we certainly had our fights. But there were times that he would win 60% of the vote at the top of the ballot and then the next line down would be me and I'd win 60% of the vote. That is never going to happen again--
TOMMY THOMPSON:
59%. You've never gotten sixty.
JAMES DOYLE:
I got sixty in that --
CHUCK TODD:
It’s now, there are no swing voters. It's two states in one. That's what Dan Balz calls it. It's really two states, right?
TOMMY THOMPSON:
It has become so partisan and so divided that I would have to say it's almost two states.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So to give you an idea of where things stand today, check out Wisconsin's nationally-watched race for governor. It is almost dead even. And, by the way, you want more of my reporting from Wisconsin? Check out our latest episode of Meet the Press Reports, "Wisconsin: Ground Zero for Polarization." It's on demand right now on Peacock, YouTube, or MeetThePress.com. When we come back, we're going to look at the role former President Trump is playing in the midterms and beyond.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Well, Mr. Trump had quite a few legal challenges this week. He chose to respond to the subpoena the January 6th Committee hearing. He didn't say what he would do, but he did write this, complaining about a lack of one focus of the investigation. He said, "It was indeed one of the largest crowds I've ever spoken before," talking about his speech on the Ellipse. "It was a very wide swath, stretching all the way back to the Washington Monument. The massive size of this crowd and its meaning has never been a subject of your committee." It is true, Amy, that they have never investigated the size--
AMY WALTER:
The size.
CHUCK TODD:
--of the January 6th crowd. I – you know – it's sort of, it’s sort of I guess not shocking that he came into office talking about his crowd sizes and he's still complaining about his crowd sizes.
AMY WALTER:
Well, he would like the 2022 election to continue to be about him, which of course Republicans would like it not to be about him. And I think the only thing that is helping Republicans right now is that while he is still trying to put himself in the center of the conversation he's really not. This is in the background. I think January 6th, especially what happened this week, didn't generate the kind of headlines and the kind of wall-to-wall coverage--
CHUCK TODD:
Subpoenas wasn't a headline enough for you--
AMY WALTER:
Subpoena, no. I think voters expect of course he's going to get subpoenaed. If they said that “We’re indict – we believe that he should be indicted." We know that the real issue here is until there is some legal action taken, this is still all background noise.
CHUCK TODD:
We got defamation testimony this week in that defamation lawsuit that apparently the former president, Jean Carroll, that, that he's worried about. That happens Wednesday, Eugene.
EUGENE DANIELS:
Yeah. I mean, it's just over and over and over and over again –
AMY WALTER:
Yeah.
EUGENE DANIELS:
– Right? It's January 6th. It's Mar-a-Lago. It's this defamation case. We talk to Republicans, and you probably would feel the same way, it’s that they're like, "It's just too much chaos," and, "We don’t want – we want you gone. Please go away," and he wants to be at the center of attention all the time–
CHUCK TODD:
Alright. Well, I've got to play for you what Paul Ryan said earlier this week. Because he said something that both seems obvious and yet I want to say naïve at the same time. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PAUL RYAN:
I think Trump's unelectability will be palpable by then. We all know that he's so much more likely to lose the White House than anybody else running for president on our side of the aisle. So why would we want to go with that?
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I'm old enough to remember, Pat, when that was Scott Walker's argument in 2015 about why people need to rally around somebody other than Donald Trump.
PAT McCRORY:
Well, there are about 20 Republican –
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
PAT McCRORY:
– candidates for the presidency that are running right now--
CHUCK TODD:
Who really believe this too, right?
PAT McCRORY:
Who really believe this, too, and they can't say it because they don't want to upset the core 30% who are with Trump regardless. And, by the way, the Democrats are running away from Biden in this election, too. They do not want – the Democrats don't want Biden on the stage.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, no, no, no. Oregon Democrats do.
PAT McCRORY:
Yeah, and the Oregon governor's race is now close--
CHUCK TODD:
I know. Right.
PAT McCRORY:
Democrats don't want Biden or Harris either, and Republicans frankly don't want Trump. And they're the ones trying to consume the TV time.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I don't think Biden's actually--
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
I think –
CHUCK TODD:
--White House seems to be fine –
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
Yeah. Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
– with this. I've talked to folks at the White House like, "Hey, we're all on the same message. We'll go to Oregon and Florida? Okay."
PAT McCRORY:
– It doesn’t matter.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
– Yeah.
AMY WALTER:
– That’s right.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
You tell us where to go. But, I also think that with Biden, his challenge is that he hasn't been able to communicate to the American people what he's done. I mean, we can say that the difference between Donald Trump and the difference within Biden is Biden is a policy president. So he has – he's going to make fundamental changes for a generation.
PAT McCRORY:
When you're--
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
And we're talking about student loan relief. We're talking about bringing back manufacturing. And the list goes on. But the difference with Trump is that his consequence is not policy.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
It's his legacy of undermining elections.
PAT McCRORY:
Biden--
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
– And it's not just him, it’s not him, but he actually has a cadre of individuals right now seeking office that are election deniers.
PAT McCRORY:
But – but – but –
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
And that legacy is far more dangerous for a modern-day president than any other thing --
PAT McCRORY:
But Biden can't go on--
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
--because it believes in undermining our democracy.
PAT McCRORY:
Biden can't go on TV because 401(k)s are down 20-25%, because the price of eggs is more than we've ever paid in our lifetime, because of gas is going up. The Democrats don't want Biden around. Republicans right now, the last four weeks, they just want the super PAC ads--
CHUCK TODD:
Well, Democrats do want one Democratic president –
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
Democracy –
CHUCK TODD:
– campaigning for him. It's the former Democratic president, who we're going to see a lot of I think in the last three weeks anyway. Terrific panel, terrific show. Just 23 days. You ready, Amy? Are you ready?
AMY WALTER:
Always ready. Always ready.
CHUCK TODD:
Remember, you can start voting in many states –
AMY WALTER:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
– so get out there and vote. We're expecting over 110 million, if not more. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.