KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: closing arguments.
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
It's either Donald Trump in there stewing over his enemies list, or me working for you, checking off my to-do list.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We're a dumping ground. We're like a garbage can for the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
With just nine days until Election Day, Vice President Harris and former President Trump make their final appeal to voters.
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
We know what Donald Trump wants. He wants unchecked power.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
She's not a smart person. She's a low IQ individual. She is. She is. She's a low IQ person.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: general’s warning. Donald Trump’s former chief of staff, a retired four-star Marine general, warns Trump would govern like a dictator and praised Hitler’s generals for loyalty.
JOHN KELLY:
He certainly falls into the general definition of a fascist.
ANDERSON COOPER:
Do you think Donald Trump is a fascist?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Yes, I do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And: 2024 doubts.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Gotta make it too big to rig. Too big to rig, right?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Donald Trump still hasn’t conceded the 2020 election. What will that mean for the 2024 results?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Did Donald Trump lose the election? Not by the words that I would use.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My guests this morning: Republican vice presidential nominee Senator JD Vance and independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Joining me for insight and analysis are:
NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson; Jonathan Martin of Politico; Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris; and Republican Strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The closest presidential contest in modern history is entering its final stretch, and with just nine days until election day, Vice President Harris and former President Trump are making their closing arguments. Trump focused on a message of fear. Harris casting Trump as a threat to the nation’s democracy. In a series of interviews with the New York Times, Mr. Trump’s longest-serving chief of staff, retired Marine Corps General John Kelly, warned the former president would rule like a dictator in a second term.
JOHN KELLY:
Looking at the definition of fascism: it’s a far-right authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy. So, certainly, in my experience, those are the kinds of things that he thinks would work better in terms of running America. So, he certainly falls into – into the general definition of – of a fascist, for sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Vice President Harris, joined by high-profile surrogates including Barack and Michelle Obama, is leaning into a closing argument centered on attacking former President Trump as a danger to the country, an approach campaign officials believe will help her win over the small sliver of undecided voters and motivate her base.
ANDERSON COOPER:
Do you think Donald Trump is a fascist?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Yes, I do. Yes, I do. And I – and I also believe that the people who know him best on this subject should be trusted.
FMR. PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
General John Kelly, Donald Trump’s former chief of staff, said that Trump told him he wanted his generals to be like Hitler’s generals. In politics, a good rule of thumb is, don't say you want to do anything like Hitler.
FMR. FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA:
All of my hope about Kamala is also accompanied by some genuine fear: fear for our country, fear for our children, fear for what is coming our way if we forget the stakes in this election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former President Trump on defense.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It was phony stories by a general that got fired. He's a whack job, total whack job. A general – It's funny, when you fire people – See, Biden has never fired anybody, but when you fire people for doing a bad job, they get a little bit angry.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The vice president will deliver a closing argument speech on Tuesday at the Ellipse, where former President Trump spoke shortly before the January 6 Capitol attack. NBC News has learned Harris plans to contrast Mr. Trump’s worst moment in office and what a second Trump term would look like with what her campaign calls Harris' optimistic vision for the future. On Saturday, former First Lady Michelle Obama appealed to American men, focusing on the issue of reproductive rights.
FMR. FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA:
If we don't get this election right, your wife, your daughter, your mother, we as women will become collateral damage to your rage.
KRISTEN WELKER:
For his part, former President Trump will use a rally tonight at Madison Square Garden to deliver his closing argument.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We’ll stop the invasion of criminals into our country, and I will bring back the American dream for your children and for yourself. This is all you need to know. Kamala broke it. I will fix it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
For more on where the race stands, and just who the voters are that the campaigns may still be able to persuade, I'm joined by National Political Correspondent Steve Kornacki. Steve, this race is incredibly tight in the home stretch.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Yeah. Absolutely, Kristen. Though, one thing we have noticed in the past couple days, this is not all of the polls that are out there now, but we have seen a number – four in the last four days – that have shown very small – but in the context of this close race, potentially meaningful – movement in Trump's direction. I don't want to overstate it, but at the same time, it's hard to ignore these four. The CNBC poll came out the other day, has Trump ahead by two. The Wall Street Journal poll, Trump ahead by three. These are national numbers. Siena and the New York Times, a tied race. CNN, a tied race. The significance here is broader movement, again, we're seeing in Trump's direction. To put this in some context, here is our current national polling average. Let me call that up on the screen for you right here. Harris continues to lead nationally, I want to stress that. But we've been tracking this every week on the air here. A couple weeks ago, this number was at three for Kamala Harris. Her lead in the poll average now down to 1.2 because of some of the numbers that I just showed you. Of course, the swing states, the battleground states are going to be what decide this election. And look how close those are. We see 1.2 nationally, just about all these swing states are even tighter than that. So, Trump, certainly a little improvement nationally. But where the race is decided, absolutely razor thin. But what is happening nationally? Well, we can show you from the CNBC poll, they picked up on something that our own NBC poll was suggesting recently, and that is a shift in the image of Kamala Harris. You could see right now in the CNBC poll, 42% positive, 48% negative. Higher negative than positive. That's where Trump is too, largely: 39%, 49%. The significance is, about a month ago when we were polling this, Harris had a higher positive than negative. In our poll, in the CNBC poll, in other polls out there right now, we see Harris now with that negative going back above that positive rating. That said, tons of uncertainty and volatility remain in this race. Check this out. We can show you this morning, also from that CNBC poll, looking at this question of persuadable voters, defining them this way. How about this: 12% in the CNBC poll who currently say they support Harris or Trump say that they could change their mind, still, in this race. Another 6% say they're undecided or currently going to vote for a third-party candidate. That's a persuadable category of 18%. That's getting close to one in five voters here. And the uncertainty is particularly acute for Donald Trump. We tell you, maybe he's made some gains here but his support continues to run deepest with voters who it is unclear if they're actually going to turn out and vote. Look at it this way, from our NBC polling, a merge of all of our data, those who voted in the 2020 presidential election and the 2022 midterms, Harris with a six-point lead. The most reliable bloc of voters. Those who only voted in the 2020 presidential, that’s where Trump opens up a lead. And then those who didn't vote in either, that's where Trump has his biggest advantage over Harris. Are they actually going to vote this time around? Huge question mark. Another way to look at it, we asked folks, scale of one to ten: your interest in this election. Again, look at this. Those who rate it the highest, nine or 10, race is tied. Seven or eight, pretty high, Harris is ahead. Here's where Trump cleans up: those who say one to six. So again, Trump relying on a coalition that, if they turn out, could be powerful for him, Kristen. But that's a big if.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Powerful indeed. And those persuadable voters in focus in these final days of the race. Steve Kornacki, great stuff as always. Thanks so much.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Saturday, I sat down with Republican vice presidential nominee Senator JD Vance in Erie, Pennsylvania.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator JD Vance, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. JD VANCE:
It’s good to be here, thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's great to have you. Thank you for sitting down with us. I want to start with some of the news this week. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin confirmed that North Korean troops are training in Russia and potentially bound for the war in Ukraine. The U.S. intelligence community confirmed that Russia is creating disinformation to sow doubt in the upcoming presidential election. Let me ask you this question, Senator. Do you see Russian President Vladimir Putin as an ally or an enemy?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, I think that he's clearly an adversary. He is a competitor. But I think that we also have to be smart about diplomacy, too. Just because we don't like somebody doesn't mean that we can't occasionally engage in conversations with them. And I think it's important if we're ever going to end the war in Ukraine fundamentally at some level, we're going to have to engage in some sort of negotiation between Ukraine, between Russia, between our NATO allies in Europe. And that's just a necessary part. Doesn't mean we have to like it, by the way. Doesn't mean we condone the Russian invasion of Ukraine. But I think that sometimes you do have to engage in diplomacy even with, and maybe especially with, your adversaries. I think the bigger problem, Kristen, if we step back for a little bit, of course, we're on the cusp, obviously, of a presidential election where I want the American people to select my running mate as the next president. Whether it's the cost of groceries, whether it's the southern border, and importantly, whether it's the chaos all over the world, I think really the theme of this election is that Kamala Harris broke things in the world, in the country, and Donald Trump will fix it. And if we get back to his steady leadership, it's not just going to mean lower grocery prices at home. It's also going to mean a much more stable and peaceful world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you say that he's an adversary, just to get back to the question, you're not willing to go so far as to call him an enemy?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, we're not in a war with him, and I don't want to be in a war with Vladimir Putin's Russia. I think that we should try to pursue avenues of peace. I'd also call China certainly a competitor, but we're not in a war with China either. I do think, though, that China constitutes the biggest threat that we have for the United States of America. And I think that we have to be serious about it. But I think we have to be careful about the language that we use in international diplomacy. We can recognize, obviously, that we have adversarial interests with Russia. We can condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and I have, and of course the president has. But we also need to engage in some smart diplomacy if we're ever going to get out of the mess that Kamala Harris has left us in and get back to a posture of peace.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, of course, Donald Trump was president for four years while Russia was essentially invading Crimea. Why didn't he kick him out when he had the chance? He had four years.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Oh, I think that that's a misunderstanding of the history, Kristen. I look at that much differently.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, there was fighting going on.
SEN. JD VANCE:
First of all, we had Russia invade another country, a sovereign nation, during Obama. We had Russia invade a sovereign nation during Bush's term. We had Russia invade a sovereign nation during the leadership of Kamala Harris. The one four-year term where Russia did not launch a full-scale invasion against a neighbor was under the leadership of Donald Trump. We also have to remember, just on that point, if Donald Trump had not given Ukraine javelins, the country would not exist as an independent sovereign nation anymore. So, the idea that Donald Trump wasn't sufficiently strong on Russia I think is belied by the actual history of the period.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Again, there was fighting going on for four years during Donald Trump.
SEN. JD VANCE:
There was fighting, but there wasn't a full-scale invasion. I think that's important.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let me ask you, because there are real concerns about Vladimir Putin invading NATO allies. Under a Trump/Vance administration, can you pledge sitting here today that the U.S. will continue to remain a member of NATO?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Of course, we're going to honor our NATO commitments. But I think it's important, Kristen, that we recognize that NATO is not just a welfare client. It should be a real alliance. And this is a strong difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. Donald Trump wants NATO to be strong. He wants us to remain in NATO. But he also wants NATO countries to actually carry their share of the defense burden. Under Kamala Harris’ leadership, we've actually seen how weak NATO is as a full-scale military alliance. It's effectively the United Kingdom, a couple of other nations and the United States. NATO's problem is particularly Germany has to spend more on security, has to spend more on defense. We can't be the policemen of the world. We want NATO to be an alliance, not just a dependent of the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
NATO has been unified in defending Ukraine. Just to be very clear, though, you would stay in NATO. Just a yes?
SEN. JD VANCE:
We would stay in NATO, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
SEN. JD VANCE:
But this is important. You're right, NATO has done – some of the countries have done a lot. But actually, some of the countries relative to GDP have done very little in Ukraine, and that's important. And, just – again, we're trying to talk to the American people, of course. And I think a very significant difference between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump is Kamala Harris would like to use our tax dollars and our troops to subsidize Europeans not taking care of their own security. Donald Trump wants Europe to step up big time to become a real ally of the United States and not just a dependent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let's move on, because you talked about the threat from China. So, this week, we learned that China was behind a broad hacking campaign –
SEN. JD VANCE:
Sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– targeting the phones of both presidential campaigns, highlighting the threat that China poses to this country. And yet, Donald Trump recently called his domestic political opponents, quote, "the enemy from within," and said they are more dangerous than Russia and China. Do you believe that people like Adam Schiff and Nancy Pelosi are more dangerous than Russia and China?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, I think what Donald Trump said is that those folks pose a greater threat to United States' peace and security because America's strong enough to stand up to any foreign adversary.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you agree with him? They pose a larger threat to the United States than Russia and China?
SEN. JD VANCE:
What he said, and I do agree with this – what he said is that the biggest threat we have in our country, it's not a foreign adversary, because we can handle these guys. We can handle foreign conflicts. We can’t handle – look, under Nancy Pelosi’s long life in public leadership, the United States has gone from the preeminent industrial power of the world to second, next to China. That fundamentally belongs on Nancy Pelosi's shoulders, and if we're going to have a more prosperous country, we've got to recognize our own leadership is why we lost our industrial base to China. Our own leadership is failing to lead this country into peace and prosperity. And, of course, Kamala Harris – look, when I look at the biggest threats to America, Kristen, I think the fact that people can't afford groceries, the fact that our – we can't meet our recruitment goals in the military, the fact that Americans have a wide-open southern border, that's a way bigger threat than any foreign threat. And, yes, it's caused by broken leadership.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, yet, Senator, as you know, inflation is coming down. Let me ask you about some of what we’ve heard –
SEN. JD VANCE:
It’s 25% higher, Kristen, than it was when Donald Trump left the Oval Office.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me – Let me – Let me tell you – Let me ask –
SEN. JD VANCE:
Do Americans – This is an important issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you about some of what we’ve heard in the U.S. this week –
SEN. JD VANCE:
If Americans feel like inflation is a solved problem, then maybe they should vote for Kamala Harris. If you feel like the price of groceries, if you feel like the price of housing is too high, if you feel like inflation is not over, then Donald Trump is your man.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Right. There's no doubt folks believe that groceries are too high. Just making the point that inflation has come down.
SEN. JD VANCE:
But they are too high. I agree with those folks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about some of what we've heard here in the U.S. this week. Donald Trump's longest-serving chief of staff, General John Kelly, said Donald Trump is a fascist. He echoed comments made by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, who also called him a fascist. When two four-star generals who worked so closely with Donald Trump call him a fascist, why shouldn't voters believe them, Senator?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, I think that Mark Milley and John Kelly are both disgruntled former employees, and very many of the things that they accuse Donald Trump of, people who were in the room at the time some of those comments were made, they have said explicitly Donald Trump didn't say the things that he was accused of. And, look, Donald Trump was already president for four years. If he was what John Kelly said he was, then why did Donald Trump deliver peace and prosperity? He didn't arrest his political opponents, as Kamala Harris and her Department of Justice have, in fact, done. He didn’t do the accusations –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hold on, there's no evidence of that. There’s no evidence of that, Senator, that Kamala Harris has arrested their political opponents.
SEN. JD VANCE:
That the Department of Justice has not been going after political opponents?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, there's no evidence of that.
SEN. JD VANCE:
The Department – the current Department of Justice, under the leadership of Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, has absolutely been going after the political opponents of the current Democratic Party. I think that's a disgrace, but it's happening.
KRISTEN WELKER:
There's no evidence that the DOJ is going after their political opponents. Donald Trump was indicted by federal grand juries. Let me ask you, though, you've said that they're disgruntled employees. Trump praised both Kelly and Milley. In fact, he said Kelly was, quote, "One of the best people I've ever worked with." In addition to those two, Trump's national security advisors, two defense secretaries, even his vice president all say he's unfit to be president. Why should the American people hire Donald Trump when the people who worked most closely with him say that he's unfit to serve?
SEN. JD VANCE:
The people who worked most closely with him, most of them are supporting this ticket. You mentioned one person.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But a lot of them aren’t, Senator.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Two people, a disgruntled ex-employee, Kristen, who Donald Trump fired, he said something nice about him and then he fired him, and now that person's attacking Donald Trump. But I think this is important because I think the American media has to be honest. Why is it, Kristen, that John Kelly doesn't like Donald Trump? It's not about personality. It's about policy. And I think the American people have the right to know that Donald Trump rejected the John Kelly, the Mark Milley consensus that America should be the policemen of the world. And because of that, these folks hate him. They – if Donald Trump wanted to start a nuclear war with Russia, I guarantee you that John Kelly and Liz Cheney would be at the front of the line endorsing him. But I think the media misses something really important. This disagreement is not about personalities. This disagreement is because John Kelly didn't like the peace-through-strength policy of Donald Trump. I do, and I think the American people do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
He was his longest-serving chief of staff, and Donald Trump says he only hires the best people. I've got to keep moving, though, because our time is very limited. Former Vice President Mike Pence said, quote, "President Trump asked me to put him over my oath to the Constitution. Anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be president of the United States." Will your loyalty, Senator, be to the Constitution or to Donald Trump?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, of course, my loyalty is to the American people and to the United States Constitution. But I think the best way –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Over Donald Trump?
SEN. JD VANCE:
The best way to accomplish that loyalty, Kristen, is to get back to a president who delivered the fastest-rising take-home pay in a generation, 1.5% inflation and a secure southern border. I don't think there's inconsistency between loyalty to the Constitution and support for Donald Trump. That's why I'm out there trying to persuade my fellow Americans that Donald Trump's presidency worked for them, and I'd like us to get back to those smart policies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to put a very fine point on this, Mike Pence says Trump asked him to put Trump over the Constitution. If you find yourself in a similar position one day, will your loyalty be to the Constitution or to Donald J. Trump?
SEN. JD VANCE:
I just said my loyalty, Kristen, is to the Constitution of the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Over Donald Trump?
SEN. JD VANCE:
But have we talked at all about the unaffordable costs of groceries?
KRISTEN WELKER:
We have. Let me ask you –
SEN. JD VANCE:
Have we talked about the fact – Because I brought it up. But young Americans can't afford a home.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. JD VANCE:
You didn't bring that up. I brought that up. It's so interesting, Kristen, because I think that Kamala Harris' campaign, and unfortunately too many of her media allies, are more interested in what Donald Trump has said than what Donald Trump did in office. You're more interested in what Kamala Harris is accusing Donald Trump of than what Donald Trump actually did during his four years in office –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. JD VANCE:
– which is deliver peace and prosperity.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We're getting a hard wrap. So, on the economy, quickly before I let you go, Donald Trump on Friday again floated the idea of getting rid of the federal income tax. Just to be clear, are you proposing eliminating all federal income taxes in a Trump-Vance administration?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, Donald Trump didn't propose that. He set that as an aspirational goal. And what he said –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is that something you would back, getting rid of all federal income taxes?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, I'm backing Donald Trump for president. And he set an aspirational goal and said, "Look, in this country for a long time we've funded the federal government primarily through tariffs," in other words, primarily through penalizing foreign corporations and foreign countries from taking advantage of our domestic markets. That's an aspirational goal. What is very real about what Donald Trump has actually proposed, his specific policy proposals, is that we want to eliminate taxes on tips. We want to eliminate taxes on overtime pay. That's the Donald Trump policy proposal. He's talking aspirationally about something that he himself thinks is less of a focus than cutting taxes on tips.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Getting a hard wrap, so just yes or no. Is getting rid of all federal income taxes on the table? It's a possibility under a Trump-Vance administration?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Is it on the table with the Democratic Congress that we have? I don't think that's realistic, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But will you propose it?
SEN. JD VANCE:
But I do think it's good to set an aspiration of what you want the country to look like.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you don't rule it out?
SEN. JD VANCE:
And right now, we're working on cutting taxes on tips, cutting taxes on overtime.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, so you're not ruling it out. Senator JD Vance.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you very much for your time.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Of course.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Appreciate it.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Likewise.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And we should note we did extend an invitation to the Democratic vice presidential nominee Governor Tim Walz. He declined to appear with us this morning. When we come back, Independent Senator Bernie Sanders joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Senator Sanders, welcome back on Meet the Press.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's great to have you, Senator. Let's start off by talking about Vice President Harris's closing arguments. She is arguing that Donald Trump is a fascist. It does come on the heels of General John Kelly calling her [SIC] a fascist, Mark Milley calling her [SIC] a fascist. You just heard me discussing this very matter with Senator JD Vance. Let me put this question to you, simply, Senator. Do you believe that Donald Trump is a fascist?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I don't like using those words, but clearly, he has a strong, strong tendency to authoritarianism and to undermining American democracy. Look, this is a guy who provoked an insurrection in January – on January 6, 2021, to prevent, in the first time in American history, a peaceful transfer of power. So does Donald Trump believe in democracy, believe in the rule of law? There is a reason – and you raised this, a moment ago, with Vance – why his own vice president for four years, Mike Pence, says he is not supporting Donald Trump; why Mitt Romney, the 2012 Republican candidate, not supporting Donald Trump. And it's not because of policy issues. It is because they understand that Trump is an authoritarian, does not believe in the rule of law, and, for 100 reasons, is unfit to be president of the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, given that you think it is too far to label Donald Trump as a fascist, do you think it's a mistake by Vice President Harris to do so?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, look. He is an – call it what you want. This is a guy who does not believe in democracy, who is trying to divide us up. You can describe him as a fascist. You can describe him as an authoritarian. But, to my mind, and what I focus on, is what's happening to the working class in this country. You may recall, just a few weeks ago, Donald Trump did his photo opportunity at a McDonald's, all right? He loves McDonald's. Great. But he's asked the question, "Do you think we should raise the minimum wage to a living wage so that people at McDonald's and millions of other workers don't have to live on starvation wages?” He ducked the question. Now, how does that happen that a billionaire cannot support raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to a living wage? Kamala Harris supports raising the minimum wage to at least $15 an hour. I would go higher. But, for a billionaire to force people to be working for $9, $10, $11 an hour, is absolutely absurd. And, if I could add, I'm in Erie, Pennsylvania, right now. He was here a few weeks ago. And he gets up there and he does his rally and he meanders. And he says, "You know, overtime pay, when I was in private business, I did everything that I could to avoid paying people time and a half, overtime. I would hire other workers so I didn't have to pay overtime." And true to his statement, when he was president, he restricted overtime, made it harder for people to get overtime. Harris and President – President Biden expanded overtime pay. How does it happen, you tell me, that a billionaire hanging out with billionaires, supported by the richest guy in the world, cannot support time and a half, overtime, for millions of working people?
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, and really, you're talking about the messaging here, Senator. So let me ask you about that very topic. Vice President Harris started her campaign calling Donald Trump weird, saying she wanted to restore joy to politics. Obviously, a shift now, casting Trump as a real threat to democracy. Do you think that Kamala Harris is giving voters enough reason to vote for her instead of just against Donald Trump?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Good. Well, that's a great question. Look, protecting American democracy, ain't nothing more important than that. Protecting a woman's right to control her own body, which, which – which Trump opposes. Nothing – You know, to me, enormously important. The fact that Donald Trump thinks that climate change is a hoax, in opposition to what every scientist who has studied the issue believes, is also of enormous importance. But if you're asking me, do I think there should be more focus on economics, on the fact that over the last 50 years, there's been a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1%, to the fact that 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck, while the billionaire class has never had it so good, while Donald Trump wants to give even more tax breaks to billionaires. You know, you talked a moment ago with Vance about their idea to eliminate all federal taxes. This would be the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of this country. It would mean the billionaire class, the millionaires, no longer pay a nickel in taxes. But you go to the grocery store, you go on, you buy a refrigerator, you're a working class person, prices are going to soar. The idea that you eliminate all taxes, replace them by a tariff is insane economics. It will hurt desperately poor people and enrich the very rich. And there is a reason why, in Trump's campaign, you got three billionaires pouring hundreds of millions of dollars to make sure that he's elected. They, no doubt, think it's a great idea that they don't have to pay any more in taxes, while we don't raise the minimum wage to a living wage.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, that was going to be my follow-up question. So, now, we can move on to my next question, which is about the Middle East. Of course, as you know, as we track the developments in the Middle East, Israel launched retaliatory strikes against Iran on Friday. I spoke with one of the leaders of the Uncommitted National Movement in Michigan. Of course, that's the group that led hundreds of thousands of primary voters to cast ballots against President Biden in the primary, a protest vote for his handling of the war in the Middle East. She told me that she was not voting for Kamala Harris or Donald Trump. Take a look. I'll get your reaction on the other side.
[START TAPE]
LAYLA ELABED:
Frankly, Vice President Harris’ unwillingness to adopt a more humanitarian policy, she hasn't earned my vote. It seems the signal that we've gotten from her and her campaign is that she is willing to risk battleground states like Michigan by continuing to alienate young people, Arab Americans and Muslim Americans.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, what is your message to this voter, to voters like her, and are you concerned that this issue could cost Kamala Harris Michigan?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Layla, I believe that President Biden, in many ways, has been the most progressive, pro-worker president since FDR, the only president to ever walk on a picket line to strongly support unions. But I have to tell you, and I've said this a million times, I strongly disagree with their policies on Gaza. Israel, of course, had a right to defend itself against the horrific terrorist attack from Hamas on October 17, but they have now gone to war against the entire Palestinian people. You know, 42,000 dead, 100,000 wounded, the destruction of all of Gaza and now starvation of children. So, my own view has been that the United States should not continue to provide financial aid or offensive weapons to Netanyahu’s right-wing extremist government. But what I would say to Layla and to all those people thinking of not voting or maybe even voting for Trump, Trump is even worse on this issue. I can tell you, we are desperately trying, at the very least, to get humanitarian aid to feed starving children into Gaza. Certainly, Kamala Harris and Joe Biden support that. We can't even get Republicans to feed the kids who are in desperate shape. So, on that issue, while I disagree with Biden and Harris, they are still better, a lot better than what Trump and Vance are talking about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, finally, I have to ask you about some developments related to Elon Musk. The Wall Street Journal reporting this week that Musk is, of course, a major government contractor, someone who has security clearance that gives him access to highly classified information, has been in regular contact with Vladimir Putin for the past two years. My question for you, is it appropriate for Elon Musk, a Trump supporter, to have these secret contacts with Vladimir Putin, and what, if anything, do you think the Biden administration can and should do about it?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No, I don't think it's appropriate. Look, Musk is a very smart, aggressive guy. He is the wealthiest person in the world. And what really interests me is, if, God forbid, Trump would win, whether it would be Elon Musk running the government and Trump working for him, or the other way around. But the idea that you have somebody like Musk who has massive amounts of federal contracts, campaigning hard, putting huge amounts of money into Trump's campaign – man, if there's ever been a conflict of interest, that's it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. All right. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for your perspective on all of these topics. Really appreciate it. When we come back, with just nine days to go, the campaigns make their final pitch to voters. Are the strategies working? We'll take a look. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson, anchor of Sunday Nightly News; Jonathan Martin, politics bureau chief and senior political correspondent for Politico; Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokesperson to Vice President Harris; and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Thank you all for being here on a very big Sunday. We are nine days out.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Nine days, let’s do it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hallie Jackson, you had a chance to sit down with Vice President Kamala Harris –
HALLIE JACKSON:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– this week. It comes as she and Donald Trump are sharpening their closing messages. What did you make of your sit-down and what we can expect to see?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, let's look at what's happening 48 hours from now, and that is when the Vice President is set to deliver that big closing argument speech on the Ellipse. And interestingly, in talking with a campaign advisor, they say, listen, it's not going to be all about January 6th. People look at the Ellipse and go, “Okay, that – that may be the focus.” They say that is sort of the stage for a broader speech that looks at Donald Trump, as she has been talking about in recent days, this enemies list versus to-do list. They say that she is going to make the case for her own candidacy, the proactive case of why people, these persuadables we've been talking about, should sort of cross – cross the bridge and back her instead of former President Trump, if they're still on the fence. Former President Trump, interesting to see your interview with JD Vance here, because he tries to pivot, right –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– to inflation, to the economy, which are the things that the Trump campaign wants the former president to be talking about. His message has been increasingly dark. It has been – he's been ratcheting up the rhetoric more and more in these last few days as part of his closing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely. And Jonathan, you were just on the campaign trail –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– in Wisconsin and Michigan. How are these closing arguments playing with the voters you were talking to there?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, they're resonating with their – their base. And there's about three voters left undecided that are going to decide the fate of the world. Look, I – I think both candidates are taking risks in the final two weeks of the election. We'll start with Kamala Harris. I think she's taking a risk by – by making this about January 6th and democracy so heavily because so many of the people who are animated by those issues are already in her column. I'll be curious to see the speech on Tuesday. How much does she pivot to how she would govern, and if she'd govern from the center? I think Trump's also risking, because Kristen, he is traveling all over the country. It's not just the Garden tonight in New York City. I'm now told he's going to New Mexico – New Mexico in the final week of the election. He's also, we know, going to Virginia. And there's talk he may go to New Hampshire. Guys, those are all blue states and have been for multiple cycles in a row. So he's taking a risk, I think, by leaving the three battleground states – Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania – which most folks think are going to decide the election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sara, how fascinating. What do you make of that strategy, and the fact that you're, frankly, seeing both candidates – you saw Vice President Harris in Texas this weekend?
SARA FAGEN:
Yeah. I mean, I think you look at some of the polling out of these states, and while Kamala Harris is comfortably ahead, being up six in Virginia, being up three or four in New Hampshire, means he's winning in these other states. I mean, these states move on a continuum. And he’s – so I think what he's feeling is confidence that he can put her on the defensive in some places. She's going to win but may not win by as much of a margin as – as she expects.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Symone?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well, I just would note, I’m – I’m interested – I think New York is just as much – just as much – about making this, you know, play for voters in his home state as it is about the House races as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Right. Right.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
And we spoke to Governor Hochul on “The Weekend” earlier today. And she said, well look, Donald Trump in these House races is not necessarily helpful for Republicans. It reminds them that, in these districts, where some of them, you know, very purplish type districts, doesn't – doesn’t help those candidates that are trying to maybe distance themselves a little bit from Trump.
HALLIE JACKSON:
I do think, Sara, you bring up something interesting but – all of you do – the Trump campaign does seem to feel pretty confident. I mean, they are feeling, in the last nine days, I think, good about where they are. Even with the polling showing, and Steve Kornacki laid it out at the top of this show –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– this is such a close race. And I think the Harris campaign looks at that and they're going, wait a second, it’s a different – it's a little bit of a different electorate in Pennsylvania –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yeah.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– versus Michigan, versus Wisconsin. It's not all the same kind of voter –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yeah.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– and they're really trying to sort of hyper-target.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
It's a Mars Venus scenario, the two parties right now. Democrats are filled with anxiety and the Republicans are cool as cucumbers, looking toward Election Day. But it's totally plausible, guys, that we have a much closer popular vote this time around, nationally, in which Trump either, you know, loses narrowly this time around. But because those three states – Michigan, Wisconsin, and PA –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– are so close that Trump could actually come within three in Virginia, two in New Hampshire, but still lose the presidency if – if it does come down to those three battleground states on the Great Lakes.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Kristen, can I just make a note about infrastructure? Infrastructure matters here. Campaign infrastructure –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
In a close race, yeah.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– in a close race.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
And the Trump campaign has ceded their infrastructure to Turning Point and Elon Musk, whom neither one of them in my opinion have ever, to my knowledge, have won races. And the Kamala Harris-Walz campaign infrastructure is one that is – is – is deep and well-organized.
SARA FAGEN:
I – I – It is well-organized. However, if you look at early vote returns, there is some evidence that Republicans certainly are voting in higher numbers earlier –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes. Yes.
SARA FAGEN:
– and his base is voting at – in higher numbers. And I think that him banking votes now will ultimately make this race incredibly close and potentially put him over the edge.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And by the way, those early vote numbers in Nevada and North Carolina are ominous for Democrats. And it suggests that her only path may, in fact, be Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania –
SARA FAGEN:
It is. It is her path.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– which means that she has almost no margin for error in those three states. And issues like the Arab-American vote in Michigan become much more central.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You see how narrow when you that voter –
HALLIE JACKSON:
We talk about –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– we were just talking to –
HALLIE JACKSON:
– and we – we say it internally here, right, the election season. Like –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right, exactly.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Exactly, right.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– there’s no election day cause millions of people have already voted –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Exactly.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– right, more than 30 million. What's interesting about the Republican vote, just in talking with experts about this, is number one, it's more in person than mail-in ballot voting, right? Generally, according to some of the data that we're seeing. Which I – I do wonder, is connected to former President Trump being all over the map on this issue of early voting. On the one hand saying to do it, on the other hand, you know, echoing the election lies he's been telling for years. The other piece of it, there is a question mark. Are these Republicans turning out, are there more of them? Or are they simply just time shifting? Would they have come out on Election Day anyway and are simply doing it earlier.
SARA FAGEN:
That – that is always the question, you know, as you analyze these early votes. But banking votes is always better than not banking votes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Symone, 30 seconds left.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well in the early vote, I feel like –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you make of the early vote? And – and to the point that Jonathan's making, the Trump campaign does feel emboldened right now. Hallie says this was her reporting too. What are your hearing from your Democratic sources?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well, let me just say, I feel like they – they're going to say they're emboldened either way. They feel emboldened. Donald Trump is laying the groundwork, just as he did in 2020, to say that he won the election when, in fact, he did not, okay? I wanna – I think it's very important that we say that. And some of this – some of these Republican polls, if you will, that have been out there in the ether are going to help make that case. I think Democrats are going to run their race. I think it's going to be close. I do think it's going to be very close and early vote matters. But so does in-person.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You set us up for our next panel. Hallie Jackson talked to the Vice President about that. We'll delve into it in our next panel. Stay with us. But when we come back, it's the October surprise Donald Trump's 2016 opponent believes helped derail her campaign. Our Meet the Press Minute is next. Stay with us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Eight years ago today, then-FBI Director James Comey met with investigators tied to Hillary Clinton's email case, a meeting that led him to reopen the probe, prompting the biggest October surprise in recent memory. Comey's letter to Congress, making the matter public just 11 days before the election, sparked outrage from Democrats. Clinton's campaign manager appeared on Meet the Press just a few days later, confident that this bombshell would not cost them at the ballot box.
[START TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe this could cost you the election?
ROBBY MOOK:
I don't think so. Look, as I said, we had over 50,000 volunteers out there. We're seeing record early voting numbers in North Carolina, Florida. Look, I would wager in Nevada turnout is so strong among Democrats there, Hillary could build an insurmountable lead in the coming days in Nevada. We're feeling really good about this record turnout. Over 200 million people now in our country registered to vote, 50 million of those are young people. We're just nose to the grindstone, and we're going to finish this out. But people should not take anything for granted, and we're going to have to work hard to earn this.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, former Secretary Clinton would later place some of the blame on Director Comey for costing her the election. When we come back, what happens if the 2024 results are challenged? More with the panel next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is still here. So, Hallie, you sat down with the vice president. And she told you that she is prepared to act if former President Trump declares victory prematurely. Let's play that, get your reaction on the other side.
[START TAPE]
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
I'm very much grounded in the present in terms of the task at hand. And we will deal with election night and the days after as they come. And we have the resources, and the expertise, and – and the focus on that as well.
HALLIE JACKSON:
So, you have teams ready to go? Is that what you're saying? Are you thinking about that as a possibility?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Of course. This is a person, Donald Trump, who tried to undo the – a free and fair election.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hallie, what did you take away from that exchange?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, just the – the – as far as the question, it's not a hypothetical, right? I mean, the question was framed as, "This happened last cycle," right? Frankly, we did win the election. Former President Trump came out and declared victory before the votes were counted. And so, to that end, is it something – I was curious about, "What is your campaign doing now? Are you thinking about that as a possibility?" She very clearly is. NBC News has more reporting that backs up the fact that her campaign has an apparatus in place, you know, if this were to happen. Which again, it does seem that the former president is laying the groundwork for that at this moment here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Symone?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Yeah. I mean, I remember standing in the boiler room in the 2020 campaign. I was working as an advisor for the Biden campaign, and we watched Donald Trump go to the East Room of the White House and say he had won when he didn't. Now, what happened after that is a week long of briefings, frankly, of the campaign being very clear about what their data is, answering the press' questions. I think that that's something we could potentially see from the Harris campaign going forward if Donald Trump declares victory on Tuesday night.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And – and viewers should know, again, this is a matter of process. Some of these states, like Pennsylvania –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Pennsylvania.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– as you know, cannot start counting their ballots until the polls close on election night. So it's not nefarious. It's simply a matter of the state law in these states. So, we're probably not, America, going to get the results of this election on election night. And there’s nothing to be alarmed about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me show some graphics. And it's such an important point, Jonathan. It's not just the Harris campaign. The public seems to agree. Take a look at these numbers. Well over 70% of voters think Vice President Harris will accept the election results if she loses. Almost three-quarters of voters believe Trump will not accept the results if he loses. Sara, what do you make of these figures?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I mean, just based on behavior you would expect that poll result –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Precedent.
SARA FAGEN:
– but, but, like, let's also remember what happened. You know, he – he did leave office. He left office when he was supposed to. And as we kind of consider this whole argument about him being a threat to democracy and the Constitution, it's pretty clear to me that he's going to get about 90 million votes, give or take. And they've already concluded that he's not a threat to democracy.
HALLIE JACKSON:
I mean –
SARA FAGEN:
They're voting for him, and it’s based on the fact that, you know, the Democrats don't have clean hands on these arguments either.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Oh.
SARA FAGEN:
They're talking about – they’re talking about undoing the filibuster, they're talking about changing the Supreme Court. So sophisticated voters –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Sara –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Hold on –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sara –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I just want to say –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me – let me just –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
That is a –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Cause I –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– say one thing, and then I'm going to toss it to you, Symone. It's important to just point out, you're saying he did leave office, but there was January 6th –
SARA FAGEN:
Of course. I'm not defending January 6th –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– people lost their lives. I just –
SARA FAGEN:
But – but –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– I just want to make the point that –
SARA FAGEN:
– but ultimately, people look back at his presidency, and they see that he left office. There was a peaceful transfer of power. There –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
There was not –
SARA FAGEN:
No, no, no –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– a peaceful transfer of power.
SARA FAGEN:
– no. Listen to this. And his – did you watch the inauguration? Where –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I was there. Let me just say this. I am very animated by this, because on January 6th, I was with the then vice president-elect of the United States of America, at the Democratic National Convention where there were live bombs –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Committee.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– at the Democratic National Committee, where there were live bombs outside. And the vice president-elect had to be evacuated. I was there at the Inauguration, and you know who I saw? I saw Vice President Mike Pence, having a moment with Vice – then Vice President Harris before he left. But who wasn't there was Donald Trump. So, there wasn't a peaceful transfer of power. That’s just – we can't just say that.
SARA FAGEN:
But – but – but Donald Trump's own judicial nominees blocked his attempts to subvert the outcome of the election. So, people look at this holistically and they say, "I've concluded this isn't a threat, and I'm voting for him."
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, it's that final point, that he did – you're acknowledging, he did try to overturn the results. Jonathan, that's the – the fact that is challenging, and that's why you have the Harris campaign preparing for him to potentially declare victory prematurely.
HALLIE JACKSON:
But this –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yeah –
HALLIE JACKSON:
– I think what we're talking about here –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Please.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– goes to the foundation of what the vice president is trying to make in this case is he's out with Liz Cheney. I saw you on the road earlier this week –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes. Yes.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– when she was there. Former Congresswoman Cheney is making the case, it doesn't matter about the process stuff if the – if the bottom drops out on the democratic process. The peaceful – the transfer of power was not peaceful.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And we all –
HALLIE JACKSON:
We saw violence before the Inauguration four years ago. And I think that's where people raise concern.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And let's be candid, this should be a good year for the GOP. The only reason that this is a competitive race is that the GOP nominated Donald Trump again. So, half the country cannot accept him in part because he did not accept the results of the last election, no matter their politics. That's why this is competitive at all this year, at a time of really bad inflation and an unpopular incumbent president. So, Trump has made this a competitive race. But yes, he still may win because of the underlying factors going on. But let's be serious about what happened in the aftermath of the last election. He refused to concede the election, he sought to overturn the election, and there was a bloody riot on the steps of the Capitol. And so, that is deeply sobering, and it's why so many people in this country are dreading the aftermath of this election. Because he will never concede, no matter the result. And I think it's incumbent upon good folks in your party, Sara, to stand up and stop that from happening if he does, in fact, lose the election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have –
SARA FAGEN:
But that’s what happened the last time. That is what happened –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
I know.
SARA FAGEN:
– the last time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah –
SARA FAGEN:
People in the Republican Party –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
But had the party changed – but had the party changed since then, you know?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Yeah, is Mike Johnson gonna – gonna tell Donald Trump to accept the results of the election when he was the chief cheerleader?
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do think it's important to point out, Elon Musk, one of his top supporters, just said last night that January 6th was in no way a violent insurrection. He also claimed that mail-in ballots are a recipe for fraud. So, there is a sense of already laying the – the groundwork for potential discord. All right, we are out of time, guys. Fantastic conversation. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We will be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.