CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: The battle over boosters.
DR. PAUL OFFIT:
We made a decision not to follow Israel's lead, which was just give a third dose, period.
CHUCK TODD:
An FDA panel says no to Covid booster shots for everyone.
DR. MICHAEL KURILLA:
It is not clear to me that the data we're seeing right now is applicable and necessary for the general population.
CHUCK TODD:
But yes for those 65 and up or at risk. The split vote undercuts President Biden's plan announced last month.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Eight months after your second shot, get the booster shot.
CHUCK TODD:
And leaves many confused. My guest this morning, Dr. Anthony Fauci. Plus, President Trump's growing hold on the Republican Party.
MATT BRAYNARD:
USA, USA!
CHUCK TODD:
Just a few hundred people show up in Washington to support the January 6th Capitol insurrectionists.
JOE KENT:
Keep speaking out. We will take this country back.
CHUCK TODD:
But it comes as a Republican congressman decides against running for re-election because of the former president.
REP. ANTHONY GONZALEZ:
Our politics have gotten so polluted that, that environment for me personally is just not one that I'm willing to be a part of.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, who voted to convict at Mr. Trump's second impeachment trial, about his party's future. And another border crisis. More than ten thousand Haitian migrants huddled in an unsanitary tent city at the U.S.- Mexico border.
JOE FRANK MARTINEZ:
Basically third world country conditions.
MORGAN CHESKY:
That bad?
JOE FRANK MARTINEZ:
That bad. You can't imagine.
CHUCK TODD:
The U.S. now planning deportation flights as early as today. Joining me for insight and analysis are: White House correspondent for Reuters, Jeff Mason. María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino. Rich Lowry, editor of National Review and Anna Palmer, founder of Punchbowl News. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. Could our fight against the coronavirus turn into our latest forever war? The war we thought we were winning at the beginning of the summer has been complicated by a more resilient enemy named Delta and by the reluctance of millions to get vaccinated. But there also have been confusing messages from the administration regarding third shots, or booster shots. A month ago, President Biden, eager to further protect the already vaccinated, announced a plan to make Pfizer and Moderna booster shots available to most adults, starting as early as this week. But on Friday, an FDA advisory panel concerned primarily with slowing the pandemic voted against providing boosters to Americans aged 16 and up. Minutes later though, the panel did vote for Pfizer boosters only, and only for those over 65 or at high risk for a severe Covid infection. All this comes amid the sobering news that the seven-day average of deaths topped 2,000, though the number of cases has slowed somewhat in recent weeks -- a hopeful sign that maybe the death rate will soon fall as well. Still, the mixed messaging threatens the administration's credibility on what is arguably the most pressing issue facing this president. President Biden won't be able to get his agenda passed without getting past Covid. In short, it's a war he can't afford to lose, and one that can't last forever. Joining me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's, of course, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet the Press. And I want to begin with the booster shot confusion. Would we be in this space of confusion if the president hadn't gotten ahead of the, ahead of the science here?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, Chuck, you know, if you look at really what happened, it wasn't getting ahead of the science. The president and the medical group at the White House said, "We are planning to be able to roll out boosters essentially for everyone, you know, 16 years of age and older." That was a plan that was always contingent, and every one of us said that, contingent upon the FDA's normal regulatory process together with their advisors to make a decision as to exactly what that rollout would look like. And that's exactly what happened. The very competent group of people who advise the FDA deliberated and came to the conclusion that, rather than have essentially everyone who's been boostered, everyone who’s gotten the regular immunization of two shots should be able to get boostered, they made it on the restrictions that you said: 65 years of age or older, or those 18 to 64 with underlying conditions that might make their response to infection be severe, and those who have institutional or occupational situations would make them more risk of getting exposed and infected. So that's a fair chunk of people in the United States. So we look at it as one phase of the rollout. So I understand why there might be confusion because I think people were not understanding the difference of planning for something and actually what element of that, what proportion of it you're actually going to roll out. And that's exactly what happened.
CHUCK TODD:
So the confusion is not if, it's -- about boosters -- it's when? So what you're saying is it's inevitable we're all going to get boosters if you've been vaccinated, but maybe it's not going to be on the timeline of five to eight months? Maybe it's on a timeline of by the end of the calendar year?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, Chuck, I believe as a scientist who's been following it that, ultimately, the real proper regimen will turn out to be the original two shots, plus a boost. But you want to do that according to what the data tells you, including the risk-benefit ratio particularly for the younger people who do not generally get as much severe disease as the elderly and others, so I believe that there's a good chance that, as we get into the coming months into the next year, that you will see the data pointing to the benefit of having a much broader blanket of people. We don't know that for sure now. And that's the reason why data are going to continue to come to the FDA and they're going to continue to evaluate it.
CHUCK TODD:
If we didn't have the supply, if we had a more limited supply of the vaccine, would we even be discussing boosters? Would we be only about prioritizing getting first shots into unvaccinated? I mean, is this a -- right now, is a booster a luxury?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
No, I don't think a booster is a luxury, and I'll explain why in a moment. But I do want to correct one thing, Chuck. Our highest priority still is getting the unvaccinated vaccinated. And there should be no confusion about that. The highest priority is not getting boosters. We think it's important to get boosters to people, but the overwhelming highest priority is to vaccinate the unvaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, you were saying though that this, that it's not a luxury. Explain why it's not a luxury.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
No. Well, the reason is if it turns out that the optimal way to get durable protection for people is to give them the first two doses and then several months later -- be that six, seven, eight or whatever months later -- you give them a booster, that might actually mature the immune response to have a much more durable response. So I don't believe it's necessarily at all a luxury. It may ultimately turn out to be the proper regimen when we look back at it and say, you know, "Looking back at this, what turned out to really be the proper regimen?" The reason we started with two doses -- as you well know, Chuck, we discussed it right here on the show -- we were in an emergency situation. We needed to get vaccines out to people to be lifesaving. And in fact, they have likely saved millions of lives already. That doesn't mean that's the end of what this regimen should be. And on a week by week, month by month basis, as we gather more data, we may get a better concept of what the proper regimen will be.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about the definition of who's in the high risk category because that seems to be a bit subjective. And I'm curious, you know, if you're, if you’re a vaccinated person in the Washington, D.C. area, you've got a pretty good protection because there's a high vaccination rate. But if you're a vaccinated person in one of these Sunbelt states, you don't have that same protection. Are you an at-risk person if you're vaccinated in your forties or fifties in Mississippi, for instance, but you're not a high risk person here in Washington?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
The way the recommendation came out, Chuck, was not in the sense of geographically where you're located. It was talking about underlying conditions. And they're pretty well delineated with the CDC has categories of people who are at risk for more severe disease. When you talk about the next category is people 18 to 64 who, on the basis of institutional or occupational, and that's what you're talking about, people who might be exposed based on what their occupation is, health care providers, people who are in essential jobs where people from the outside keep coming in. Those are the types of people. It's not been said because you live in this state versus that state.
CHUCK TODD:
Should it be though?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
That does not constitute that at --
CHUCK TODD:
Should it be?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
-- this point. You know, I think that’ something -- well, you know, I don't want to, I don’t want to opine on that, Chuck. I think what we need to do is, you know, once you get from the FDA what the authorization to do, that's the reason why you have the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices that advises the CDC to fine-tune that. Generally, they stay well within the bounds of what the FDA has authorized. But there's always the capability of fine-tuning that a bit.
CHUCK TODD:
Let’s talk about -- mostly, this is about Pfizer. This is not about Moderna or the Johnson & Johnson. What do you -- speak to these folks right now. I believe you have Moderna, if I'm not mistaken. What about a third --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
I have.
CHUCK TODD:
-- dose of Moderna? And what about a second dose of Johnson & Johnson? Especially the J&J folks, they feel a bit left out all the time in the, in the media narrative.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yes. Understandably feeling left out in the narrative, but not in reality. We are definitely paying strong attention to both the J&J people and those who've received a Moderna. And the actual data that will get that third shot for the Moderna and second shot for the J&J is literally a couple to a few weeks away. We're working on that right now, to get the data to the FDA so they can examine it and make a determination about the boosters for those people. They're not being left behind by any means.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this something within weeks, days, months when it comes to Moderna and Johnson & Johnson?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Chuck, I believe it will be weeks and not months. And I don't think it's going to be days. But it's going to be weeks, I believe.
CHUCK TODD:
And the Pfizer rollout should be this week? Do we expect that? The FDA hears from the advisory panel. You expect that decision this coming week and that the rollouts could begin as early as Thursday or Friday?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yes, I believe that's quite possible, Chuck. As you know, the FDA will come out with their decision. And then immediately after that, you will see the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices advising the CDC. So it should be within the timeframe that was first mentioned.
CHUCK TODD:
You have said, and certainly there's medical proof, some scientific proof, that if you've gotten Covid, you get some natural immunities. Do we have a good -- do we have some good studies that indicate how long those natural immunities last?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Not yet, Chuck. We don't. We're following that, but not yet. We do know that when you do get infected, you get strong immunity. There's no doubt about that. The durability is unclear. There's another fact we know that if you do get infected and recover and get vaccinated, the level of your immunity is extraordinarily high, surpassing any of the other two-dose vaccines that you get. So there are certain things we do know, the two things I just mentioned. The thing that's still unclear is what the durability of natural infection induced immunity is, and what is the scope of its protection against different variants.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this a case where -- do you think we'll be able to get data to find out, for instance, if you've had Covid, maybe you only need one shot of a Pfizer and that's going to be sufficient? Is that the kind of research that you think we're going to be able to have in hand soon?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yes, I believe so. I'm not so sure how soon, but certainly that's an important question. It's being asked continually, particularly since we know when you get a shot following natural infection and recovery, you get a very good immune response. So that is a question of interest and hopefully, we'll be able to answer it in an expeditious manner.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, play forecaster here. This is our fourth surge. How close are we to being through it? And what do you expect the next three months to look like?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, the next three months, Chuck, is up to us. And getting back to what I say all the time, we still have approximately 70 million people who are eligible to be vaccinated who have not yet gotten vaccinated. If we get the overwhelming majority of those people vaccinated as we get into the mid to late fall and winter, we would get through the winter well. You know, we always have to worry about the other respiratory infections, particularly influenza. So we strongly encourage people to also get the influenza vaccine. I believe if we get that overwhelming majority of the people vaccinated, as we enter into the fall and winter, we could have good control over this and not have a really bad winter at all.
CHUCK TODD:
One final thing. You had indicated personally you would be supportive of a vaccine mandate for domestic fliers. Is that something that's under consideration by the Biden Covid team?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, the team has a lot of things on the table. Nothing has been taken off the table. That decision has not been made. You know, the president made the decision when it comes to flying if a person does not want to wear a mask or doesn't wear a mask, they double the fining on that. We have not yet gotten to the point of requiring vaccinations on domestic flights. But everything is on the table. We consider these things literally on a daily basis.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. But does that, does that mean it's something that could happen, or is it really just based on how long this fourth surge lasts?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I think obviously, the degree of dynamics of infection influences a lot of decision. So, suffice it to say, it's still on the table right now.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Dr. Anthony Fauci, as always, sir, appreciate you coming on and explaining the administration's perspective as well as --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
-- providing your own expertise. And I guess we will see you soon. Thank you. When we come back, one of the ten Republican members of the House who voted to impeach President Trump calls it quits, Anthony Gonzalez, citing threats to his family. I'll talk to Bill Cassidy, one of seven Republican senators who voted to convict Mr. Trump at his second impeachment trial. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We've just had two new indications of former President Trump's growing dominance of this version of the Republican Party. Yesterday, a few hundred people gathered near the Capitol for a rally that was in support of the January 6th insurrectionists. That came one day after Republican Congressman Anthony Gonzalez of Ohio, who was one of the 10 Republican House impeachers, decided there was no future for being an anti-Trump Republican and he announced he would not run for re-election.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
He’s a sellout. He’s a fake Republican and a disgrace to your state.
CHUCK TODD:
Calling Donald Trump “a cancer for the country,” Gonzalez became the first of the 10 House Republicans who voted for impeachment after the January 6th insurrection, to retire.
REP. ANTHONY GONZALEZ:
The environment is very toxic and especially you know the dynamics inside our own party, which have sort of stopped making sense to me in a lot of ways.
CHUCK TODD:
A two-term member of Congress from Ohio, Gonzalez was facing a primary challenge from former Trump White House aide Max Miller, whom Trump has endorsed.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Max’s opponent is a guy named Anthony Gonzalez, who’s bad news. He’s a grandstanding RINO, not respected in DC who voted for the unhinged, unconstitutional, illegal impeachment witch hunt.
CHUCK TODD:
Eight months after the January 6th attack, former President Trump is still winning the fight for the soul of the Republican Party. In a new survey, more than half of Republicans blame "left-wing activists" for the attack. Only 30% hold white supremacist groups responsible. And just 15% place a lot of blame on Donald Trump. On Saturday, just a few hundred gathered at a rally on Capitol Hill in support of those charged in the insurrection. Ahead of the rally, Trump praised the perpetrators of the attack, saying, "Our hearts and minds are with the people being persecuted so unfairly." Meanwhile, Trump is trying to purge the party of any Republican who crosses him, endorsing challengers to members of Congress who voted to impeach or convict him.
STEVE CARRA:
The straw that broke the camel’s back was when he voted to impeach President Trump.
JOE KENT:
A sham impeachment that our Congresswoman voted for.
KELLY TSHIBAKA:
Lisa Murkowski is so out of touch that she even voted to remove Donald Trump from office, even after he was already gone.
CHUCK TODD:
On Friday, Trump said in a statement, one down, nine to go. Republican leaders are following along. In May, House Republicans stripped Congresswoman Liz Cheney of her leadership post.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
For reasons that I don't understand, leaders in my party have decided to embrace the former president who launched that attack.
CHUCK TODD:
And Republicans are adopting Trump's language and tactics.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They want to lock it down. No. We’re not going to let it happen.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
If anyone is calling for lockdowns, you're not getting that done in Florida.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We’re talking about an invasion of our country.
GOV. GREG ABBOTT:
Homes are being invaded.
CHUCK TODD:
In the California recall, Governor Gavin Newsom successfully ran against Republican frontrunner Larry Elder by running against Trump.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
He's a clone of Donald Trump
CHUCK TODD:
-- worrying Republican Senate leaders that Democrats could use that playbook in 2022, as Trump injects himself into key primary contests in states like Georgia, Arizona, New Hampshire and North Carolina.
BILL HEMMER:
Will you welcome the former president's involvement in the midterm?
MITCH MCCONNELL:
Well, he has his own agenda. And my view is, we're going to focus on this administration and the future.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. He's one of the seven Republican senators who voted to convict President Trump at his second impeachment trial. Senator Cassidy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Hey good -- Chuck, thank you for having me. Pleased to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with Anthony Gonzalez's retirement. Him walking away from politics, is that good or bad for the Republican Party?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You know, Anthony’s -- Anthony is choosing his personal priorities. You read his statement, it stands for itself. But I think you have a broader question there. The broader question, frankly, is do Republicans continue to relitigate 2020, or do we look to the forward -- look forward with a positive agenda? If we relitigate 2020 over and over again, it won't change the result in 2020, but we're sure to lose in 2024. On the other hand, if we have a positive agenda which addresses the fact that the Biden administration is in disarray, whether it's inflation, the border, Afghanistan, then the country will win and we'll win. But if we choose to be bullied, we'll lose.
CHUCK TODD:
You agree with Congressman Gonzalez, who calls Donald Trump a cancer for the country?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You know, politicians -- he's really speaking about the Republican Party. Politicians are not victims. Politicians make a choice. If we choose to look forward, bringing positive solutions to the American people who have needs, we win. If we choose to be bullied, we lose. Let me put a point on this. My state has been hammered by Hurricane Ida. I have communities which have been completely destroyed. Now, if you go back there, you're going to find somebody who, yeah, they feel strongly about the election in 2020. What they really feel strongly about is rebuilding their community and building the resiliency so that this doesn't happen again. Now, if we meet that person's needs, Republicans will do well in 2024, 2022. And if we don't, they'll look elsewhere. Let's meet their needs.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you are, I think being -- I think relentlessly hopeful here. You're trying to look forward. I get what you're trying to say. You're alone here. There are not many of you speaking this way. It does look like a lion's share of your colleagues prefer to either stay silent or to go ahead and relitigate to appease Trump.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
So we answer to voters. And so if we don't answer to voters in a positive way, we lose. It's kind of a market-based economy, and it's ruthless. If all you do is talk about the past, you're yesterday's news. If you talk about the future in a way which gives a positive alternative to a Biden administration, whether it's inflation, Afghanistan, immigration, I could go on, which is failing, then we win. Now, folks can choose to be bullied and relitigate. We can choose to go forward and win. I choose to go forward and serve my constituents.
CHUCK TODD:
Adam Kinzinger said that the issue is there are too many of his colleagues, and I'm going to use his quote here, "lacking the courage to speak out, while privately hoping for change." It does seem as if there's been this, "Well, if you just wait Trump out." Well, guess what? There's no waiting him out. He waits you out. He waits everybody out. Do you got to confront this more squarely? Do other -- your colleagues -- you've done it. Look, you've put yourself on the line. No one's going to accuse you of not speaking out. But you're seven of 50 Republicans.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Republicans -- let me start over. Politicians are not victims. We choose who we answer to. Either you can choose to answer to someone who is off-screen, if you will, or you can choose to answer to your constituents, your state, your country. Now, I find if you answer to your state, your constituents, and your country, elections go okay. If we speak -- and you say I'm being hopelessly optimistic? No. That's a winning strategy. If we don't adopt that sort of strategy, our country loses and we lose. I'm all about winning. I'm about going forward. I'm about meeting the needs of someone right now in South Louisiana who's wondering if their life can be put back together. And there’s folks like that across our country.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think at this time with where the party is choosing to go right now with Donald Trump that that is a losing strategy for the midterms at this point?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
If we relitigate the past, we lose. We've got to speak about the future. Now, again, our country is looking for something which brings back the prosperity we had pre-pandemic, where economic benefit was principally going, or disproportionately going, to those in the lower portion of our economic scale, with record low unemployment, which is to say record high employment, for African-Americans, Hispanics, the disabled, high school dropouts, et cetera. If we speak about recovering that, we win. Again, if we relitigate an election from 2020, we lose. I'm about winning.
CHUCK TODD:
Part of the reason why we might have Donald Trump is this idea that Washington is just always finger-pointing, and this debt ceiling discussion feels like one of those moments. I want to put up something that Mitch McConnell said. He said, "The country must never default. The debt ceiling will need to be raised. The only issue is, whose responsibility is it to do it? A Democratic president, a Democratic House, and a Democratic Senate, it's their obligation." This feels like someone saying, "There's a fire. I have a fire extinguisher, but I'm not going to use it." And I know where you are on the debt ceiling in general, but do you see how silly this looks to the average person right now where it's, like, just do your job. We know you have to raise the debt ceiling to make sure the economy doesn't crash. Why politicize it?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Yeah. A couple things about that. Every now and then, context is important. Debt ceiling context is important. We actually raised on a bipartisan basis the debt ceiling in the last Congress because, on a bipartisan basis, we agreed on what to spend the money on. This time, Democrats want to increase the debt ceiling on the -- for their reconciliation bill which they're passing on a party line basis, which is going to fuel inflation if you speak to Democratic economists like Larry Summers. So wait a second. We're supposed to aid and abet party line spending, which even Democratic economists say will fuel further inflation? No. That's not right. Now, if you want to come back and meet where we can actually find common ground, where we can actually address needs, as opposed to a Democratic wish list, well, then we'll help, but not when you're just trying to tank the economy by fueling inflation to get your kind of --
CHUCK TODD:
But Senator --
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
-- who knows, wish list.
CHUCK TODD:
-- the debt ceiling -- this debt ceiling has nothing to do with the reconciliation. This isn't about spending going forward, this is about spending that's already happened. I mean, I understand the messaging.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
No --
CHUCK TODD:
I understand the messaging you want to make clear here and the issue of spending. And I understand that from an ideological, you know, disagreement. That's politics. But that is not what this debt ceiling is about right now. It's simply paying the bills we've already promised we'd pay.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
We had actually raised the debt ceiling adequately to address all the way up to the $1.9 trillion package that was passed, the American Relief Plan, on a party line vote, which has money out there far in excess of what is actually needed, and is contributing to the inflation we have now.
And I will beg to differ with you. Going forward, that's what they're hoping to do. They're hoping to increase the debt ceiling to meet their $3.5 trillion package, which the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget says is actually $5.5 trillion. And so we're going to disagree on this. They are increasing the debt ceiling to make room for a $5.5 trillion Democratic Party wish list.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I think that isn't how this technical debt ceiling needs to be. Very quickly, there are still people without power in your state. And I know it's in the hardest to reach areas. Does this -- do you believe this bipartisan infrastructure bill that you're supportive of is going to make it where power outages are less in Louisiana after storms?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
First, hopefully disaster relief will actually address those particular needs. But this bill has billions to promote resiliency for the grid, whether it is a hurricane in Louisiana, an ice storm in Texas or the northeast, or forest fires on the west coast. So absolutely. Again, billions to address resiliency. We should pass this. We should pass it for my folks in Lafourche and Terrebonne Parish, but also for folks elsewhere in the nation.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Senator Bill Cassidy, a Republican from Louisiana. Appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective with us.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Have a good Sunday. Thank you. When we come back, the growing crowds of Haitian migrants now living in deplorable conditions at the Texas border. That's just one of many crises facing President Biden right now. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is with us. Anna Palmer, founder of Punchbowl News, Jeff Mason, White House Correspondent for Reuters, Rich Lowry, editor of National Review, and María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino. Welcome, all. So to say this has not been a great week for the Biden presidency is a bit of an understatement. Just Friday was rough. The FDA scuttled its hopes for Covid boosters for everyone over 16. There's a new micro-crisis at the Texas border with more than 10,000 Haitians living in deteriorating conditions. U.S. military had to admit its missile strike in Kabul in response to the killing of 13 soldiers was in error and that it killed up to ten innocent civilians. And then you had the issue with France, so angry about the U.S. sabotaging their submarine deal with Australia that they actually recalled their ambassador. Jeff Mason, what is the mood at the White House right now? Because this is -- it's been a rough six weeks, and it seems as if it's only getting worse.
JEFF MASON:
And it got a lot worse on that Friday afternoon --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
JEFF MASON:
-- with all of those things happening in one day. The mood is one of soldiering on. I mean, they're certainly embattled right now. But this White House has said from the beginning, Joe Biden can chew gum and walk at the same time. And all the people around him can do the same. But certainly some of these crises are not ones that they expected. I don't think they expected to see one of the U.S.’s oldest allies recalling its ambassador. So they're soldiering on. They're trying to say, "We've got this. We're going to roll through it." But it's a tough time.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Anna, with the Afghanistan withdrawal and how it went, and then you have the -- what the Pentagon said, and then you look at the border, there is this growing, “Wait, can you guys get your arms around our problems?” This seems to be the real challenge.
ANNA PALMER:
Yeah, and I think they have continued to stumble here, right? They don't have the messaging right. They don't necessarily have the pulse right. I think there's a lot of questions on Capitol Hill now that these members are coming back where they're going to face investigations on Afghanistan. What happened there? It's not going away. And I think this is something where this White House has really not kind of got its feet underneath it. And now we're weeks into this, right? They need to kind of figure out what their messaging is going to be, how are they going to deal with tough questions?
CHUCK TODD:
María Theresa, this migrant crisis is not seasonal, right? President Biden thought it was going to be seasonal. This is just one of the things he had said that turned out not to be true these days. And this issue with the Haitians is -- I mean, you and I were talking earlier, this is yet another problem with disinformation, perhaps for the Haitian people. But this is a bunch of bad choices. We're really going to send people back to Haiti?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I think their options right now are really limited. As you said, Chuck, there is tons of disinformation right now that if you were to ask me, "What is one of the things that's under the radar that folks aren't paying attention to, but that is a national security crisis?" It is the disinformation that we're battling. Whether it's the crisis at the border. Whether it's people getting vaccine hesitancy. Whether it's getting information that just does not allow them to understand what our government is actually doing for them. When we talk about what's happening right now, for example, even in France, France had to pull their ambassador back because they just lost a major contract of government jobs. So they're trying to figure out how do you actually save face? But they understand that the alliance right now between the United States, German, France and Australia through the NATO alliances, they need to make sure that they continue fortifying. Because who is our biggest challenge right now? China. And that is why the Australians decided who they wanted to buy their submarines from.
JEFF MASON:
By the way, I think the White House would agree with you about disinformation. I mean, that has been something they've been trying to combat for months as well. And they're frustrated by it.
CHUCK TODD:
But the only thing conservatives aren't criticizing Biden on is the deal with Australia.
RICH LOWRY:
Yeah, exactly. Finally someone really upsets France, and they deserve to be upset.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Freedom fries.
RICH LOWRY:
So I think the French will get over it. They'll get their story straight on boosters. But I focus in on the border and Afghanistan. Because they're both, to some significant extent, self-inflicted. They're national embarrassments. And they give a sense that events are out of control. And if, I don't think we're here yet, but if this kind of slide continues, the risk to Biden is a raps that would stick with people would be, "Decent guy, but not up for the job." And that's what they have to try to avoid at all costs.
CHUCK TODD:
There's a certain one-term Democratic President that would be described that way I believe from the late '70s in Mr. Carter. But I want to bring this over to the deal on Capitol Hill. He needs to get this, and yet I've got to put up something here from the political director of the Missouri AFL-CIO. And he was just talking about the Biden agenda complete: "I don't think one percent of reliable or frequent Democratic voters have even a decent understanding of what Democrats are trying to do in Washington, D.C. right now. The disconnect between what folks in Washington, D.C. are talking about and what folks on the ground know is massive." He was more saying, "Hey, they've done good things and they haven't been able to communicate them very well." But I do feel like in the midst of this Covid surge, what's happening on the border, what’s happening -- the congressional fight feels like one that's only more problematic.
JEFF MASON:
Well, number one, I would say you're right that he needs it. And the White House is confident. I was traveling with President Biden on 9/11 last weekend, and we chatted with him briefly. And he expressed a lot of confidence that some Republicans, and Anna might have more to say about this, who aren't coming out in favor of these deals are still going to be with him. And that goes back to --
RICH LOWRY:
On what?
ANNA PALMER:
I think they've wildly --
JEFF MASON:
On, exactly the --
ANNA PALMER:
--wildly --
RICH LOWRY:
On what?
ANNA PALMER:
I think they've wildly overestimated --
RICH LOWRY:
Talk about disinformation.
ANNA PALMER:
They wildly overestimate where Republicans are here. And I think to your point, the biggest issue is going to be just getting the lights going. They're going to have to do government funding. They're going to have to do the debt limit. That is not what anybody in the middle of the country is concerned about. It's why shots in the arms played so well, because it's something people can understand. The next several months are going to be a slog of really just can Biden turn Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema and get them to support a massive reconciliation package, which, you know, then they can use to 2022? But up until then, these next four months are going to be tough.
JEFF MASON:
Which means it's not even as much about bipartisanship. It's as much about just getting Democrats on board.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, but María Teresa, so let's say they get the bill passed. But if they don't explain it, we saw what happened in health care.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I think that's the -- but that's the biggest challenge right now is that the American -- the consumption of American media right now in everyday households is Balkanized. So one of the challenges that the Biden --
CHUCK TODD:
That's an understatement.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
No, but it -- so one of the challenges is that people are starting to see the Child Tax Credit hit their bank account. They don't really understand where it's coming from.
CHUCK TODD:
That was the amazing thing. That was what this Missouri labor leader was talking about, going, "Oh, my own people don't even know that that was based on a Democratic --"
RICH LOWRY:
Yeah, that's one of the paradoxes. You would think, like, an enormous spending bill would have more of an impact, but it might be that it has less of an impact. Because you scatter money across the landscape, sort of absorbed in the ground, and no one knows where it came from or whether it's -- it's coming again. And this reconciliation bill is very much the same. People on my side of the aisle are focused on there’s a huge immigration bill tucked into this reconciliation bill that would amnesty about eight million people and no one's talking about it. Because there's so much in it. And it's so huge.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, do Democrats really want the parliamentarian to allow immigration into this reconciliation? I'm sorry, this feels like that could -- that could be a poison pill.
ANNA PALMER:
I think that it’s going to be -- we don't know. We don't know what the parliamentarian is going to say right now. They are basically doing all of the arguments for and against it. But I do think that immigration, voting rights, abortion, are what Democrats are going to run on in 2022. Not --
CHUCK TODD:
All right --
ANNA PALMER:
-- what they're spending bill is.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
But I do think this is where the Biden administration, I think, really needs to wrap themselves around and the Democrats need to wrap themselves around and learn a little bit from the recall -- the Newsom recall. And that is, yes, right now Biden may have had a tough week. But it is an asymmetrical conversation between him and what Trump represents. Talk about the abortion bill, talk about Larry Elder and his totality, it's the antithesis of American values. And that's where they need to lie about. Because we right now are talking about policy. But we are right now really living in a cultural war of what is the heart of America? And that is where the Biden administration really needs to lean into.
CHUCK TODD:
What you're saying is Biden needs a foil?
ANNA PALMER:
No --
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, I've joked that, you know, when Biden comes out for Facebook and Twitter asking President Trump to get back on, like in some ways they miss that --
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
But you don't want him on.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I know, but --
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Because otherwise the rally yesterday would have been so much bigger --
CHUCK TODD:
That's true. But --
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Right? Like, that was --
CHUCK TODD:
But it did give -- Joe Biden's numbers go up when Donald Trump is in the news.
RICH LOWRY:
Yeah, but you're not going to have Larry Elder running everywhere, and everywhere is not California.
CHUCK TODD:
Apparently Biden's going to be traveling less. What is that about?
JEFF MASON:
You know, they got some things knocked out with the California trip, the wildfires, focusing on climate change. He is going to, at least at this point, still planning to go to the G20 and the Glasgow climate conference. But in general I think he's planning to focus on stuff from home. Home being Washington, D.C. and also Delaware on the weekends.
ANNA PALMER:
I was like Delaware, what?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, but --
JEFF MASON:
But --
CHUCK TODD:
-- a certain reconciliation bill is too big to fail.
JEFF MASON:
Exactly. And he's got a lot riding on getting stuff right here.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I'm going to pause here. When we come back, we know things are improving. Why the expected economic boom is three months away. It's always coming soon. It's a perpetual state of coming soon. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It is Data Download time. It was supposed to be the summer of independence from the virus. But it ended up becoming the summer of the Delta variant, and data from Gallup shows just how quickly the story can turn and did turn this summer in a matter of a few short months. Look, we had some optimism here as you can see. Beginning of summer, just three percent thought the pandemic was getting worse, 89% thought we were getting better. Look our caseload was below 10,000 at one point. Delta starts its move in the south and, as you can see, getting worse, getting better, and then, of course, come August, pretty decided. I think we all know we live in this current unpredictable fourth wave. And that pessimism has done what? It has led to some travel issues. So look, as the virus, we were getting it under control, travel, decline in travel, it was decreasing, decreasing in July and there you see in August, and we expect the number to go, ‘cause look what's already happened. The number of canceled trips since the rise of Delta, 27%. The number of postponed trips, 34%. Look, this is a good way to sort of give you an idea of when is this economy coming back. People are looking forward. They see where Delta is, and they've decided the next three months, it's going to be tough. So for now, looks like everybody's hoping. Maybe it's the start of '22 that will begin the next chance at independence from this virus. When we come back, despite losing the popular vote twice, Donald Trump is still managing to tighten his hold on the Republican party. What that could mean for the 2022 midterms and beyond. Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Now we talked about the trouble, the struggles and troubles for Joe Biden, now the Republican Party. Rich Lowry -- I want to play a piece from Anthony Gonzalez-- in an interview with our Cleveland affiliate.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ANTHONY GONZALEZ:
We just seem to have lost the ability to dialogue and to reason. And to do it in a way that's respectful and thoughtful inside of politics.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I'm pretty sure everybody around this table would agree with that sentiment. I thought the most correct thing he said is, "Even if I won, I was going back to a Washington Republican Party controlled by Trump."
RICH LOWRY:
Uh-huh.
CHUCK TODD:
There is no room for a moderate wing in the party. What are the Republicans going to do?
RICH LOWRY:
Well, if you're in the right circumstances, you can maintain some distance as we saw with Bill Cassidy earlier. But he's not up till 2026, right?
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, do you think 2022 Bill Cassidy, if he were up now, could be --
RICH LOWRY:
Much harder.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
RICH LOWRY:
And you can maintain some distance but you certainly can't frontily challenge Donald Trump. And put aside the post-election, there were two ways for Republican voters to react possibly to 2020. One is say, "Well, Trump did good stuff. But he's the one who lost to Joe Biden. And we wish him well. But we've got to move on." The other way would be to say, "He was right about Joe Biden all along, he is the opposite of Joe Biden in every single way, and he's still our champion." And that latter option is very much where the party is. And I don't think the party really can mess up 2020. But 2024 is a huge question. And whether Trump decides to go or not is enormously important. Probably the single decision made by one person that will have the most impact on the future of the Republican Party since Dwight Eisenhower decided whether he was going to run or not as a Republican. It will be epically important.
CHUCK TODD:
Anna Palmer, I wanna get at the Adam Kinzinger criticism though. Where he basically says, "There's a lot of Republicans, particularly the elected Republicans at Capitol Hill that are just sitting quiet. Hoping he goes away. Hoping this passes." We're nine months removed from January 6, and then some. It's stronger than ever.
ANNA PALMER:
Absolutely. I mean, if you look at the president praising the protesters this weekend here in Washington, not a single Republican said, "No. What happened on January 6 was terrible. The president's wrong on this." Nobody wants to confront Trump because it's a losing battle. And honestly, if you look at most Republicans up on Capitol Hill, they're bear hugging Donald Trump. Kevin McCarthy sees his -- obtaining the speakership right through Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeff Mason, what was interesting to me was Bill Cassidy had certainly made his stance clear. But he didn't want to add to the criticisms of Trump.
JEFF MASON:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
He was very careful not to add to the criticisms. And put it this way, Mitch McConnell will be very happy with that.
JEFF MASON:
Yes. Because it's not just about Donald Trump. It's about his voters. And the voters, when we were talking about the room in the Republican Party for moderates, the voters are with the former president. That base is stronger than ever, and they're the ones who are coming out. And so be it a Bill Cassidy or be it a Republican at a local level, at a national level, they need those people who are supporters of the former president.
CHUCK TODD:
María Theresa, is this proof that despite all of the challenges we talked about in our last segment, as long as Trump's front and center it could paper over some problems for Democrats?
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
I do. But I also think that when you look at Republicans that are speaking truth, that what's happening right now in the Republican Party is against our democracy. The fact that they felt so emboldened after an insurrection of a fair and free election on January 6. What would speak more to the American people is: stay in the fight. Keep talking about the asymmetry that we're seeing right now between the Republican Party. Because right now we don't have two parties. We have one party that believes in the democratic system and another one saying, "We're going to win at all costs." Have Andrew Gonzalez basically say, "You know what, I'll continue to the death," or, "I will go ahead and become an independent and run that way." So there is a bully pulpit there that is constantly streaming for the Republican Party of what it means to actually lead. And what it means to actually be a part of a democracy. In that you need two strong parties. Because otherwise there's no battle of ideas.
CHUCK TODD:
Does the Republican Party have any chance of healing itself if Trump does run?
RICH LOWRY:
If he does run in 2024? It's hard to see. He would be the prohibitive frontrunner no doubt. But --
CHUCK TODD:
And a bunch of people would not run because they have--
RICH LOWRY:
Correct.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
RICH LOWRY:
And the field would be smaller. The question is: two and a half years from now, has his power eroded in some way that is not visible currently? And I don't think you would know until you're actually testing it in caucuses and primaries. But he would definitely be the prohibitive favorite. On Republicans and democracy, Republicans want to win elections. They're not an anti-democratic party. A lot of people want to look past January 6 because they feel it's being thrust down their throat. Or they're being judged, or they're being blamed for it even if they had nothing to do with it, and they opposed it. But it's not an anti-democratic party, that's just not true.
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
No, well they didn't vote for the insurrection, many of them. They didn't vote for the commission. They didn't want to actually look behind the curtain to see what was happening there. They are now going around state to state and trying to actually create barriers to access to voting booths. When Texas, Georgia, Arizona, all Republican led, have actually certified the voting booth. So we have to have an honest conversation of what's happening with the Republican Party. That's why Gonzalez is retiring. He's, like, "We cannot even meet on the merits of what facts are."
RICH LOWRY:
There's not one fewer person that's going to vote because of the Georgia and Texas electoral reform --
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
That is not--
RICH LOWRY:
It's just --
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
That is not the case.
RICH LOWRY:
It's just, it's not true.
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
No, it absolutely is true. That's one of the reasons --
RICH LOWRY:
I mean, people can sign their absentee ballots. I mean, you can still vote by mail in Georgia--
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
I will share with you, one of the challenges right now in Harris County is that -- the bill that was recently passed by Abbott -- is that they are closing drop box boxes in Harris County. Which is the most diverse county in the country. They're not doing the same thing in predominantly white communities.
RICH LOWRY:
But these were --
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
It makes me pause and say, “if the Republican Party certified a fair, free election in Texas -- why now? And it's the hardest state to vote in. Why now add restrictions?”
RICH LOWRY:
But these were emergency --
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
Because in the waiting booth--
RICH LOWRY:
-- emergency measures --
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
They’re waiting --
RICH LOWRY:
They didn't exist prior to 2020 --
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
They're waiting --
RICH LOWRY:
-- prior to 2020.
MARÍA THERESA KUMAR:
You have roughly about --
RICH LOWRY:
So it can't be that -- if we had a democracy prior to 2020 and you stopped drive-thru voting and you stopped drop-off boxes or at least limit them, it can't be true that suddenly democracy's over. Because we had a democracy prior to those emergency provisions.
JEFF MASON:
But those things are also going to mobilize Democrats in 2022. The question is: how much? Whether it helps sort of fend off the Republican firewall. But that and the social issues that we were talking about earlier, really will get Democrats out to vote.
CHUCK TODD:
How much does Trump, Anna, really impact the ability for the two parties to have even sane conversations right now? On Capitol Hill. Because I do get the sense that this really is disruptive.
ANNA PALMER:
Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at all of the things that are going to happen in the next four months, Donald Trump is peering over every Republican's shoulder. And saying, "Are you going to vote with this? Are you going to --" now in the House, are they going to actually vote to support this bipartisan infrastructure bill? The longer you get away from that Senate vote, the fewer Republicans in the House that are going to. When you look at reconciliation, that is going to be a party line vote. No Republicans are going to support that.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. But I mean the sort of next level. I mean the fact that you can't even get debt ceiling agreement here. I mean, it's just like a mess. I mean, to me this is how you ended up with a Donald Trump. Because of stupid political fights like this.
ANNA PALMER:
And people like Anthony Gonzalez are leaving, right? You don't have anybody who's kind of this moderate, business-centric Republican who might be more of the person who says, "Okay, we need to have cooler heads to prevail in these big crises."
CHUCK TODD:
Where are the major donors on this? Why aren't they sort of influencing this?
RICH LOWRY:
They -- it differs from donor to donor. But a lot of them are where the rest of the party is as well on this question.
CHUCK TODD:
So maybe this gets into the information ecosystem issue. Alright. Terrific panel, thank you guys. That's all we have for today. Thank you all for watching, appreciate it. We'll be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.