The Jan. 6 committee held its third public hearing Thursday, focusing on Mike Pence, his resistance to a pressure campaign from then-President Donald Trump to go along with a scheme to overturn the election and the eagerness of the mob to punish the then-vice president for his perceived disloyalty.
Among the biggest revelations:
- Top legal advisers to Pence testified that lawyer John Eastman's plan for Vice President Mike Pence to block the certification of Joe Biden’s victory was illegal, baseless and without any historical precedent, and they advised Pence as such.
- If Pence had followed Trump's orders to hand him the election, a constitutional crisis would have ensued, according to J. Michael Luttig, the former federal judge who advised Pence about his role in certifying the 2020 election.
- Although he was moved into a secure bunker during the riot, Pence was a mere 40 feet from rioters who were threatening his life.
- Prior to Jan. 6, Eastman acknowledged that what he and Trump pushed Pence to do was not legal, according to a senior aide to Pence. After the riot, Eastman sought a presidential pardon via Rudy Giuliani, according to an email the committee displayed.
- Get caught up on Day 1 and Day 2 of the hearings.
Ginni Thomas open to talking to Jan. 6 committee: report
Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, told the Daily Caller on Thursday she'd be willing to speak to the Jan. 6 committee.
“I can’t wait to clear up misconceptions. I look forward to talking to them,” she said according to the website, without elaborating on what the “misconceptions” are.
Committee chair Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., said earlier in the day that the panel planned to ask her to meet with them, and told reporters a short time later that "we have sent Mrs. Thomas a letter."
Thomas's role has come under increasing scrutiny since it was revealed she'd sent then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows text messages after the election, including one a week after Election Day encouraging President Donald Trump not to concede. The Washington Post, citing three sources involved with the probe, reported on Wednesday that she'd also corresponded with Trump lawyer John Eastman.
In a post on his Substack Thursday, Eastman, a former Clarence Thomas law clerk, said Ginni Thomas had sent him an email on Dec. 4, 2020, asking him “to give an update about election litigation to a group she met with periodically” called the Frontliners.
He does not say if he met with the group, but said "at no time did I discuss with Mrs. Thomas or Justice Thomas any matters pending or likely to come before the Court.”
Justice Department says Jan. 6 committee interview transcripts ‘critical’ to criminal investigation
Justice Department officials have renewed their request for the House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol to turn over transcripts of witness depositions, saying that the documents are “critical” to its sprawling investigation.
“It is now readily apparent that the interviews the Select Committee conducted are not just potentially relevant to our overall criminal investigations, but are likely relevant to specific prosecutions that have already commenced,” read a letter sent to the committee on Wednesday.
“Given this overlap, it is critical that the Select Committee provide us with copies of the transcripts of all its witness interviews.”
Read more here.
Democrats praise Pence as committee outlines Trump's campaign to get him to overturn election results
In response to the committee presentation on the pressures Trump placed on Vice President Mike Pence to reject the election results, several Democrats praised Pence's loyalty to the American people and to democracy.
"We should be grateful Republicans like Vice President Pence refused orders from Donald Trump and put our country over their own political interests," Rep. Seth Moulton, D-Mass., tweeted. "It took courage. And it might not happen that way next time."
Other Democratic lawmakers like Rep. Rosa DeLauro, D-Conn., supported Pence's decision to certify the election in the face of rioters storming the Capitol yelling "Hang Mike Pence" who were featured in committee footage Thursday. "He [Pence] was correct to resist Trump's pressure to unlawfully overrule the will of the people," she tweeted.
Meanwhile, Rep. Elaine Luria, D-Va., recognized Pence's decision to break ranks with Trump came at the right time: "Pence demonstrated his loyalty for 4 years but he knew he had a higher duty on January 6th to the United States Constitution," she tweeted.
Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., said Pence did "the right thing and stood up for the good of our Constitution and our country by not following Trump’s orders."
Giuliani declines to respond to Herschmann testimony, says investigation is a 'witch hunt'
Rudy Giuliani was asked about video testimony played during Thursday's hearing in which Trump White House lawyer Eric Herschmann said that the former New York City mayor acknowledged that Pence didn't have the authority to block certification of the 2020 election.
"I shouldn’t really talk about that. The set of rules that I had with the committee was that my answer and question would be confidential. Now, the committee leaked because the committee is an irresponsible group," Giuliani said to a reporter in Binghamton, N.Y., at a campaign event for his son, Andrew Giuliani, who is running for governor.
Giuliani repeatedly refused to address Herschmann's comments, lashing out at the Jan. 6. committee instead.
"I’m going to tell you that the committee is a witch hunt. I’m going to tell you that the committee is an extension of Russian collusion, might as well be Russian collusion, too," he said. "I was telling the truth, the president was telling the truth, you don’t think they’re lying now? What, they changed it all of a sudden?"
Luttig concludes testimony with a stark warning for 2024, saying Trump remains 'a danger'
Luttig, in stark remarks near the close of Thursday’s hearing, warned that Trump and his supporters remain a “clear and present danger to American democracy” because they have so often indicated their desire to try again in 2024 to overturn the presidential election, if they lose.
“I have written that today, almost two years after that fateful day in January of 2021, that still, Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to American democracy,” Luttig began.
“That’s not because of what happened on Jan. 6. It’s because, to this very day, the former president, his allies and supporters pledge that in the presidential election of 2024, if the former president or his anointed successor as the Republican Party presidential candidate were to lose that election, that they would attempt to overturn that 2024 election in the same way that they attempted to overturn the 2020 election, but succeed in 2024, where they failed in 2020,” he continued.
Luttig added that “they are executing that blueprint in open and plain view of the American public.”
Cheney says next hearing will focus on Trump's efforts to lean on state officials to change election outcome
Vice Chair Liz Cheney, R-Wyo., said in her closing remarks that the next hearings held by the committee will focus on Trump and his aides' efforts to pressure GOP-controlled state legislatures and state officials and Trump's threat to stop the electoral count.
Cheney said that the committee will show how Trump's pressure campaign targeted every tier of federal and state-elected officials. The panel will also examine the Trump team's determination to send "materially false electoral slates" from multiple states to the legislative and executive branches of the government.
"An honorable man receiving the information and advice that Mr. Trump received from his campaign experts and his staff, a man who loved his country more than himself, would have conceded this election," she said. "Indeed, we know that a number of President Trump's closest aides urged him to do so."
Hearing over
With Thompson's gavel, Thursday's hearing has concluded.
Committee highlights ruling by federal judge who said Trump likely broke the law
The committee on Thursday repeatedly highlighted the March ruling from a federal judge that indicated Trump likely broke the law in his efforts to block the Jan. 6 certification proceedings.
In that ruling, U.S. District Judge David Carter, who is presiding over a civil suit involving the House committee, wrote that Trump and Eastman “launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election, an action unprecedented in American history.”
He added that “their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower — it was a coup in search of a legal theory. The plan spurred violent attacks on the seat of our nation’s government, led to the deaths of several law enforcement officers, and deepened public distrust in our political process.”
Cheney and Aguilar both cited and quoted from the ruling during Thursday’s hearing.
Carter, who was nominated to the federal court by President Bill Clinton, closed his 44-page ruling with a warning: “If the country does not commit to investigating and pursuing accountability for those responsible, the Court fears Jan. 6 will repeat itself.”
In his ruling, Carter found that Trump “likely attempted to obstruct the joint session of Congress” on Jan. 6, 2021, which would be a crime.
Pence mum on Jan. 6 hearing during appearance in Ohio
Former Vice President Mike Pence appeared at a roundtable event on energy in Ohio Thursday during the committee hearing on Donald Trump's efforts to convince him to overturn the election results.
Pence made no mention of the hearing during the public portion of the roundtable with Republican Gov. Mike DeWine and energy executives, and did not respond to reporters' questions about the proceedings.
Pence, who's been eyeing a run for president in 2024, complained about high gas prices, and said that "under the Trump-Pence administration, we unleashed American energy." "With the right leadership, we can do it all again," he added later.
Eastman repeatedly pleaded the Fifth to the committee
The committee aired footage showing a deposition with Eastman, who repeatedly invoked his Fifth Amendment right in response to questions.
When asked whether he had told Trump that then-Vice President Pence could move to reject electors from seven states, Eastman replied with one word: "Fifth."
"Dr. Eastman pled the Fifth a hundred times," Rep. Pete Aguilar said at the conclusion of the deposition footage.