CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Nervous Democrats.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE:
To say that this president has not shown urgency, it's just, it's just false.
CHUCK TODD:
Growing criticism from Democrats that President Biden needs to show some fight, from abortion --
SEN. PATTY MURRAY:
We want the president to absolutely crawl into every corner and say: “What can we do to help?”
CHUCK TODD:
-- to guns --
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER:
If you're angry today, I'm here to tell you: Be angry. I'm furious.
CHUCK TODD:
-- to the economy. Mr. Biden says his options are limited, and Republicans are standing in the way.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
That's why my plan is not finished and why the results aren't finished either.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to commerce secretary Gina Raimondo. Plus, the Republicans' leadership challenge.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Get Murkowski out of here because she's not a Republican.
CHUCK TODD:
How much influence does former President Trump still have on the GOP? Maryland's Republican governor Larry Hogan joins me. Also, former White House counsel Pat Cipollone testifies before the January 6th committee after Cassidy Hutchinson's explosive appearance.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON:
Please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to committee member Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy about what Cipollone told the committee. And, tweet this. Elon Musk says he wants out of his $44 billion deal to buy Twitter over a dispute about spam accounts.
KARA SWISHER:
He’s just reaching out for something to blame, but he has to pay.
CHUCK TODD:
We'll hear from Kara Swisher, co-host of Vox Media's "Pivot" podcast. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, Mark Leibovich of The Atlantic, Daniella Gibbs Léger of the Center for American Progress and Rich Lowry, editor of National Review. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. The phrase you hear most often these days when frustrated Democrats talk about President Biden is: "meet the moment" -- as in: "Can President Biden meet the moment?" Americans arguably elected Joe Biden for two reasons: One, because he wasn't Donald Trump, and two, because he was going to bring some stability and competence to the White House and calm the country down, turn down the volume, if you will. And while Mr. Biden certainly has succeeded in not being Donald Trump, many more progressive Democrats complain that the president needs to show more passion -- bang the table, raise the volume, take some chances, challenge the boundaries. In other words: meet the moment that these crises have entailed. All the talk about Mr. Biden's lack of passion is really code for concern about his age. So, is the criticism fair? Mr. Biden has actually delivered the presidency he promised. He's been a grown-up who plays by the rules, some think plays by the rules too well, and he does try to work with Republicans when he can, though some think he shouldn’t try so much. But the Democrats' progressive base has always wanted more, and Mr. Biden was never their first choice. So, even if the criticism isn't fair, the sentiment is real. And potential Democratic White House hopefuls are quietly, and in some cases not so quietly, preparing to have their moment if the president doesn't meet his.
[BEGIN TAPE]
APARNA RAMANATHAN:
What we have going on is a massive human rights violation in our country, and he’s not responding to that level.
CHUCK TODD:
As many Democrats plead for a fighter, President Biden is pointing out the limits of his power --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I’m just stating a basic fundamental notion, the fastest way to restore woe -- Roe, is to pass a national law codifying Roe.
CHUCK TODD:
After signing an executive order on access to abortion medication and emergency contraception --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
If you want to change the circumstances for women and even little girls in this country, please go out and vote.
CHUCK TODD:
But some Democrats who did vote in 2020 are frustrated with the administration's failure to push through their agenda, pass the big-ticket legislation, and Biden's own reluctance -- or inability -- to use the bully pulpit to change people's minds.
ERICA INGRAM:
Democrats don't fight hard enough for nothing. Like right now we might as well be in a recession, and they're not even trying to fight to help or nothing. And Biden, to me, he just talks in circles.
CHUCK TODD:
Biden was elected to restore competency and stability to Washington after Donald Trump, but his job approval trails other recent presidents, including Trump, at this point in the election cycle. After a lingering pandemic, the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan, failure to stem rising costs, failure to pass voting rights legislation and a failure to substantially address climate change or immigration challenges.
WILLIE GEIST:
Has the Biden administration done a good job handling the border?
BETO O'ROURKE:
They haven't done enough, no.
CHUCK TODD:
Whispers that Biden's age and leadership style make him ill-suited to run again in 2024 have gone very public.
JOE CUNNINGHAM:
If he served out a second term, he would be 86 years old. I’m not sure if any of us know any 86-year-olds who should be running the entire country.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
You know, I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not he should run. If he does run he'll have my support.
CHUCK TODD:
Echoed by voters.
JEANNE JEAN:
Given what he was handed, he’s really doing a very good job, but we, we do need younger voices.
DAVID COURSEY:
My understanding that part of the, the wager in 2020 was that he was only going to run once.
CHUCK TODD:
And some Democrats eyeing 2024 are stepping into the vacuum. California Governor Gavin Newsom even aired TV ads over the July 4th weekend in Florida.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
I urge all of you living in Florida to join the fight or join us in California, where we still believe in freedom.
CHUCK TODD:
Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, who took a trip to New Hampshire last month, had a fiery response to last week's mass shooting.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER:
If you’re angry today, I’m here to tell you: Be angry. I'm furious.
CHUCK TODD:
Now Biden, who ran promising to be a transitional figure to a new generation --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else.
CHUCK TODD:
-- is trying to tamp down speculation he may not be on the ballot in 2024, as voters who elected Biden to be above the fray worry he's not well suited for the current fight ahead.
BENJAMIN WIDES:
I think his energy matters. I want to see him out here fighting for these things. And if he is, then I’ll support him.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the commerce secretary, Gina Raimondo, also the former governor of Rhode Island. Secretary Raimondo, welcome to Meet the Press.
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, your purview in many ways is the economy largely. And so let me ask a simple question this way: What do you attribute to the fact that three-quarters of the country feel like the country's headed in the wrong direction? How much of it is economic in your view?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
I think quite a bit of it is economic. And specifically, I think it's inflation. So, you know, look, obviously it's frustrating. You know, if you were to ask me, “What do I think of the economy?” I'd say that we have a very strong economy. You know, unemployment is down. We've recovered all the jobs since lost in the pandemic. People's household balance sheets are strong. However, when you go to the grocery store, prices are high. When you fill up your car at the tank, prices are high. And so consumers, Americans are feeling that. And I think that is largely the reason folks say, as you said, we're headed in the wrong direction. But, if you – you know, I was just talking to a CEO of a big company and asking him, as I always do talking to people, you know, "What do you think about the economy?" And he said, "The economy's strong. Customers are buying. Businesses are strong. People are adding jobs." He said, "We're trying to talk ourselves into a recession." And I agree with that, you know? I think fundamentally, the economy's strong. But if you go to the grocery store every day, getting ready for that summer picnic, and prices are high, people feel frustrated. And, you know, we get that.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about a couple things though the administration hasn't done yet that have been thought of as pretty good short-term solutions. I was talking with Stephanie Murphy, Democratic congresswoman from Florida. And she pointed out three things, and I've heard this from others: getting rid of many of these Trump tariffs, boosting legal immigration and implementing an all of the above energy policy. I want to take the first two. You would like to see some of these Trump tariffs gotten rid of on household items. You're not the only one in the administration. Why hasn't it happened yet?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
The president is in the process of making that decision. I want to say a couple things about this. We should be clear about what lifting tariffs would and wouldn't do, right? Like, lifting tariffs isn't going to bring down top-line inflation in a very significant way. What it will do potentially is help consumers on certain, as you say, household goods. And so for that reason, given where inflation is, I think it could make sense to do it. But, you know, the president is being thoughtful about this, unlike President Trump. Those tariffs that he imposed made no sense. And so we are briefing him and I expect he'll make a decision shortly. And if he decides to lift certain tariffs, it will be because he knows he has to think about doing everything he possibly can to provide any relief to consumers. But he’s going to do it in a thoughtful way that is strategic, and also most important – most important to him and to all of us – is without hurting American workers. And that's what we're trying to get done here. With respect to immigration, you know, that's an issue for Congress to take up. And I think that, you know, it's a discussion that we should have. Everybody knows, ask any economist. We're not going to be able to achieve --
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't it the single biggest driver, actually --
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
– the economic growth --
CHUCK TODD:
– right now with our supply chain problems, with the labor pressure, with all of this, that in many ways this inflationary pressure in some ways is this labor shortage on the lower end of the scale, right?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
In a lot of ways, absolutely. Not in some ways. It's a huge driver. And so increasing the labor supply would certainly help. The other thing we need to do, though, is get women back into the workforce. You talk about single biggest issues, look at workforce participation of women without a college degree. We have to be there for those women to get child care, to -- you know, reproductive health is on everybody's mind. That's going to hurt the economy. You know, child care, health care, skills, train these women so that they're able to get jobs that are available today and be productive members of the workforce. If you're serious about the labor shortage, lean in to making sure women can fully participate.
CHUCK TODD:
On the issue of energy prices, the president proposed a gas tax holiday. There's been crickets in Congress. What other ideas do you have to lower the price of gas?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
So that is one, and hopefully Congress takes action. The other thing the president's working on is just increasing supply. You know, fundamentally this inflation we're experiencing, whether it's gas or goods, is being driven by a lack of supply. Now, there's some good news, right? You saw wholesale gas prices drop significantly recently. I think that's due to the increased supply. And now we have to make sure consumers feel that at the pump. But the president is pushing producers domestically and globally to increase supply so that consumers start to feel it at the pump.
CHUCK TODD:
You brought up abortion rights. And it's interesting, whether it's inflation, whether it's abortion rights, whether it's yet another gun massacre in Illinois, there's a growing group of Democrats that are frustrated, believe that the president isn't showing enough energy, isn't showing enough fight on any of these issues. Is any of this criticism, in your view, justified?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
No, no. Look, it's not about who's the best performer. This isn't about, you know, performative. This is about who's going to go to work every day and get the job done and deliver for women. I have to say on a personal level, I first fell in love with Senator Biden way back when when he was fighting for the Violence Against Women Act. I was an intern at the Department of Justice. This is a guy who has devoted decades to working to help women, to provide women rights. And he's fighting every day now. He just signed the executive order to preserve women's health care and reproductive rights. So, I would say –
CHUCK TODD:
Does that executive order -- what does that order do other than tell everybody to follow the law? I mean, I don’t -- it looks like it's a glorified press release.
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Well, you know, you put your finger on an issue. A lot of the things that are coming the president's way, he doesn't have a silver bullet to solve. I mean, these issues have to be solved by Congress, or in this case, the Supreme Court and Congress. So he's doing what a good executive does, which is go to his team and say, "Give me every option, every tool in my toolbox." And that's what this executive order does. He's pushing the limits of his authority to stand up for women who've had a right taken away. And that’s what I – look, I know people are frustrated. You know, folks are cranky with a lot of good reason. But we have to focus on who's going to work every day and solving these problems, not who uses the most fiery language. It's who's going to stick up for women and deliver for them, whether it's health care, reproductive rights, or jobs, or training, or child care. And that's President Biden.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Gina Raimondo, commerce secretary and, as I said the former governor of Rhode Island, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it.
CHUCK TODD:
From one party's leadership challenge to another, the Republican Party is also facing one. Former President Trump still wields huge influence on Republicans in Congress. But Republican governors collectively have been able to maintain some independence from him. You're starting to see that spread. Joining me now is the Republican governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan. Governor Hogan, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
You've been sort of alone on this for years, saying the governors are pushing back, and you're starting to see more evidence of that. But I want to start overseas. Is there anything to be learned by the party from what the Conservatives, the Tories did with their unpopular and controversial leader?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I think maybe not getting away from what the, you know, basic tenets of your party are and, you know, changing direction. And, you know, I think he did some crazy things that, you know, didn't make the public very happy, and he lost his position.
CHUCK TODD:
Why isn't the Americans – America's conservative party doing the same thing with their leader?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I would argue that we are. It's just taking longer than it should. As you pointed out, I've been talking about this for years now. And I felt like I was on a lifeboat all by myself, but now we need a bigger boat because more and more people are speaking out every day. You know, I was chair of the National Governors Association, we were pushing back all throughout Covid. But I’ve said that President Trump's, you know, influence on the party was going to diminish over time. It hasn't happened, you know, rapidly, but it has diminished dramatically. And there are only about 34% of Republican primary voters who want to see the president run again.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, you're in this awkward spot, and I know you work with a lot of these governors' races around the country. Governor Kemp was able to push back a Trump influence.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
But you look at what's happening in Arizona, and there's a fight there. You look at what's happening in Maryland, you have a fight there. You look at what's happening in Michigan. And there's no anti-Trump candidate because of some really bad campaign tactics, if you will.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:Right.
CHUCK TODD:
You win some, you lose some. Arizona and Michigan are pretty tough ones to lose, no?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I agree. But it's an example of the fact that Trump's influence is diminishing. So I'm on the RGA executive committee. There were five different governors where Trump was attacking them. All of them won. I mean, I went down and did events for Brian Kemp, a couple of my staffers are down working at his campaign. Brian Kemp won by 52 points, and Brad Little won and Kay Ivey won. And a number of other -- all the incumbent governors that Trump went after have won their primaries. But yeah, national Democrats are now kind of colluding with Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
What's funny is I'm going to play an ad now and ask you about it. Here it is. This is one running in Maryland.
[START TAPE]
CAMPAIGN AD:
Dan Cox, Donald Trump's hand-picked candidate for Maryland governor. Cox worked with Trump, trying to prove the last election was a fraud. Dan Cox: too close to Trump, too conservative for Maryland.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Obviously, we know they're trying to say, "Hey, look at who's the more conservative guy." Now, they're not being – they’re pretending they like the candidate here. Sometimes you see that in these subtle ads. But is this a Donald Trump problem or a Democratic Party aggressiveness?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, and it's both. But I think this is a perfect example of, you know, the Democratic Party is talking about, you know, defending democracy. But they're spending tens of millions of dollars to promote, you know, conspiracy theory-believing – you know, this guy that they're promoting with that ad took two busloads of people to the Capitol on January 6th and called Mike Pence a traitor while they were saying, "Hang Mike Pence --"
CHUCK TODD:
But when Trump endorses him, I mean, do you blame the Democratic Party for pointing that out?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, Trump shouldn't be endorsing him, but the Democratic Party shouldn't be spending millions of dollars trying to promote conspiracy theorists.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I hear you. But if Trump wasn't doing it –
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
I agree.
CHUCK TODD:
– you would have a better case, right.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Look, nobody's been standing up more to Donald Trump than me. And we’re – I'm going all around the country, helping people that Trump is attacking. And we're winning most of them.
CHUCK TODD:
Based on what you've gleaned from the January 6th committee and what you've taken away, is this – do you think he should be charged with a crime?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I think that's for the Justice Department to decide because I think one thing the American people do want is to take the politics out of it and get to the facts of what happened. I think the committee's done a service in bringing a lot of people forward that are finally talking. And we have a lot more information than we did. But that's something the Justice Department has to decide. Look, a lot of people are now --
CHUCK TODD:
What’s best for the country? Do you think the country can handle prosecuting a former president?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Yeah, I'm not sure they can. But I think, you know, no man is above the law. So if that's where the facts lead, that's what has to happen. But, you know, a lot of people are talking about January 6th, but I was actually taking action on January 6th. I sent the Maryland State Police, you know, riot police, and I sent the Maryland National Guard. And they were all the first to arrive to defend the leaders of Congress and the vice president.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to change subjects slightly on the issue of guns. Your state – the Supreme Court ruling on the New York law meant Maryland's permit law, you were going to have to essentially allow it to happen. Do you feel as if the Supreme Court has constrained your ability to fight guns?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, look, I think it really doesn't do a whole lot. I mean, in Maryland we've got some of the toughest gun laws in the country. But it hasn't stopped the shootings. So most – 99% of the gun crimes that take place are all illegal guns. It has nothing to do with people compiling --
CHUCK TODD:
But they're coming from states that don't have the Maryland laws, correct?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, there are ghost guns and there are people that are stealing, trafficking in stolen guns. But the violent crime problem is real. And it doesn't have much to do with, you know, how you go about registration on concealed carry because the shooters, the repeat violent offenders, they don't follow gun laws, so.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I hear you. But look at all these mass shootings. Too many of them, they're always, "Oh, by the way, the gun was purchased legally."
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
So, and here you have states with red flag laws that can't be implemented. Is that really the elixir?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, look, I signed a red flag law that does work in Maryland. So we aren't having some of those issues. I'm for universal background checks and for reasonable restrictions. But, you know, I've always supported the right of law-abiding citizens to go through a process and to be able to, you know, bear arms. But to do everything we possibly can to take guns away from the mentally ill and criminals. And that's the problem in our state, our legislature keeps voting against penalties for people that shoot people with guns.
CHUCK TODD:
What – do you think the Supreme Court has been too conservative, about right, or maybe too activist?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
You know, I'm not sure whether they've been activist or not. And I'm not a constitutional scholar. But I think the Supreme Court and the people that are on there made decisions based on what they thought their interpretation of the law was. And I know a lot of people conflate, you know, how this came about. But, you know, I think some of these issues that hadn't been heard before, they just found a legal reason for taking the action.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you worried it's become politicized, the Court?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
I'm worried about the fact that the country is so dramatically divided and that some of these issues are going to continue to help us be divided. But I think the vast majority of people in America are just frustrated with all the angry rhetoric on both sides.
CHUCK TODD:
I know you're thinking about running for president. Why wouldn’t – what would make you not run?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, look, I'm going to do the best job I can being governor until next January. But, and I don't know exactly what the future holds. But I do think that there are an awful lot of people, and I would call them the exhausted majority of Americans, who are frustrated with the far left and the far right. And they want to see us go in a different direction. So I've seen nothing that would dissuade me from thinking that -- I think there's a growing demand for exactly what we've done in Maryland over the last eight years.
CHUCK TODD:
You think Donald Trump, if he runs, would ever concede losing a primary?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
I'm hopeful that Donald Trump won't be running and won't be the nominee if he does run.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Larry Hogan, Republican from Maryland, it's good to see you, sir.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you. When we come back, the Trump White House counsel Pat Cipollone sat down with the January 6th committee last Friday. I'm going to talk to committee member Stephanie Murphy about what Cipollone told them, and about what we can expect from this week's hearings.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The January 6th committee is planning at least two more hearings this week. On Friday, former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone testified before the committee for seven hours on President Trump's efforts to overturn the election. This week's first hearing will focus on Mr. Trump's connections to various extremist groups that were involved in the attack, and it's being led by Democrats Jamie Raskin and Stephanie Murphy. And Congresswoman Murphy, a Democrat from Florida, joins me now. Congresswoman, welcome to Meet the Press.
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with Pat Cipollone's testimony. Was it as critical as you thought it would be?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Of course it was. He had relevant information about what was happening in the White House, and we are really grateful to him that he was willing to come before the committee and share that with us. You know, of course, there were areas in which he claimed privilege, but it was important for us to understand what the president's top legal adviser thought about the activities that were happening post-election and in the run-up to January 6th.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you give me an idea of what he would not touch?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
He claimed privilege on conversations that related to the advice he provided directly to the president or conversations with the president. But I think we still got a lot of relevant information from him, and it provides us another perspective on what was happening in the White House in those weeks running up to January 6th that were so critically important.
CHUCK TODD:
I've seen some reports – other fellow committee members said Mr. Cipollone did not contradict previous witnesses. Did he confirm testimony that Cassidy Hutchinson gave?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think there was a lot of information that fit into this bigger puzzle that we're putting together. And we have different voices telling about the same meeting, and – and more or less telling the same narrative. Of course, you have to understand, these are all folks who have had a year plus since the events. And so everybody has a different level of memory or recall on specific details. But the overall message that we have been gathering out of all of these witnesses is that the president knew he had lost the election, or that his advisers had told him he had lost the election, and that he was casting about for ways in which he could retain power and remain the president, despite the fact that the democratic will of the American people was to have President Biden be the next elected.
CHUCK TODD:
Was it clear that the president was told his actions that he wanted to take were illegal?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think he was given the best possible advice by very talented legal folks, both from Barr at the Department of Justice, as well as within the White House in legal counsel. And they gave him very strong advice. What we were able to ascertain from those folks is what their activities were, what they said. And, as you have seen in some of the hearings, they said in no unclear terms that these were things that – these were lines that could not be crossed for the sake of democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you confirm if he said, "We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable?" I mean, that was a big important moment in Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. Were you able to have him confirm that that is a concern he had?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
We were able to get him to confirm the concerns that he did have. His reservations about some of the things that were happening, his desire not to be affiliated with, you know, some of the things, his desire to be on the record, have the legal --
CHUCK TODD:
Not affiliated with what? When you say "some of the things," the speech at the Ellipse?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Well, like, the speech at the Ellipse. He didn't attend the speech at the Ellipse. There were --
CHUCK TODD:
Did he try to get language struck out of it?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
He, you know, not to get too much into details, I think for legal counsel, they participated and they perform the role that they have when speeches do come to them.
CHUCK TODD:
The Jeffrey Clark scheme, it was referred to that he called that a "murder-suicide pact." Was he – were you able to get that confirmed out of him?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
He made very clear that he thought the Eastman theory, which was this idea that the vice president could somehow unilaterally declare the president the president-elect, or that the pressure on the Department of Justice – he sided with the Department of Justice on their findings of no fraud in the election. He made very clear that he took the side of many of the folks that you've already seen come before the committee and was asserting that there wasn't enough evidence to prove that the election was not free and fair. And that, you know, the right thing to do I think for democracy is to have a peaceful transfer of power, especially after December 14th, when the states have certified their electors.
CHUCK TODD:
One of the more striking responses to supposedly things that Mr. Cipollone said was from Jared Kushner. It's a clip we've seen a lot. I want to play it.
[START TAPE]
JARED KUSHNER:
I know that, you know, he was always – him and the team were always saying, "Oh, we're going to resign, we're not going to be here if this happens, if that happens." So I kind of took it up to just be whining, to be honest with you.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Number one, did Mr. Cipollone have any reaction to this idea that his threats for resignation were just simply chalked up to whining?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think when you look at legal advice that's given – because you have to understand Mr. Cipollone wanted to see President Trump succeed. And so he was giving him the best legal advice he could to ensure his success. And if he got to a place where he felt like he couldn't morally stand by some sort of action, resigning isn't an act of whining. It is an ultimate protest that what – that his advice was being ignored, and what the president moved forward with was something he didn't want to be associated with. So I'm not sure that I would have characterized it as whining.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's go to your hearing on Tuesday. Number one, are we going to see much of Mr. Cipollone's testimony on Tuesday, or this – in the first hearing this week?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
We are always receiving new information from a lot of different sources, and we are trying to pull the information that the American people most need to hear. And I imagine that you will be hearing things from Mr. Cipollone, but also from others that were in the White House. The focus of this next hearing will be on the domestic violent extremists, as well as members of Congress, people that the president called in to assist him in this pressure campaign. And this pressure campaign is a follow-on to the previous hearings where we talked about how the president pressured the vice president, pressured the Department of Justice, pressured state election and electors to just call the race in his favor. And he, in the waning days leading up to January 6th, called in additional support.
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Raskin has called it “convergence,” these groups like the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers and what they were doing here. They wouldn't be here without the president wanting them here. But are you going to be able to provide evidence that's more than just “convergence?” That there was an absolute understanding as to why the president invited them to Washington?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Without spoiling anything that comes this week and encouraging folks to tune in to the specifics, what I will say is that we will lay out the body of evidence that we have that talks about how the president's tweet on the wee hours of December 19th of "Be there, be wild," was a siren call to these folks. And we'll talk in detail about what that caused them to do, how that caused them to organize, as well as who else was amplifying that message.
CHUCK TODD:
And you have evidence of specific members of Congress who were somehow involved in amplifying and encouraging these groups to come?
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Yes, I think all of that is pretty public. They were quite public about their efforts to amplify the president's call to use January 6th as a last stand in this effort to remain as president.
CHUCK TODD:
Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy, appreciate you coming on.
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY:
So great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, we'll be watching this week. Thanks. When we come back, is President Biden the Democrats' best bet in 2024? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is here. NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson, Mark Leibovich of The Atlantic, and he's author of the new book “Thank You for Your Servitude,” we're going to get into it in a little bit. Rich Lowry's editor of National Review, and Daniella Gibbs Léger is the executive vice president of the Center for American Progress. And since the first half of our show was about sort of the hand-wringing going on inside the Democratic Party, Daniella, I'll let you get first crack here, which is what is the issue at the White House? Are they not meeting the moment? Are expectations too high on the left? What say you?
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
Maybe it's a little bit of both. Look, it is a national pastime here in D.C. to talk about Democrats infighting. You know, I was using an analogy the other day, it's like --
CHUCK TODD:
Dems in disarray, right?
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
Dems in disarray, exactly --
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't that a meme? Yeah.
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
That is totally a "hashtag this town" thing to say.
CHUCK TODD:
Speaking of ”This Town.”
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
Just what he wanted to hear.
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
Right. But it's like these Democrats, we went out and bought a house and they're sitting outside arguing about what color to paint it. Meanwhile, the Republican Party is literally burning the house down to the ground. That is how I view this argument. Like we – there are bigger fish to fry. And what you need to be doing is being focused like a laser beam on November. Like, that is what is most important, and making sure the American people know there's a really big choice.
CHUCK TODD:
Hallie, what are you hearing out of the White House? What is it that they're --
HALLIE JACKSON:
A couple things.
CHUCK TODD:
– pushing back?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Because I was on the phone with folks over there yesterday, ahead of the show asking about this exactly thing, knowing we were probably going to talk about it. And there is – I think there is a frustration, obviously. There's also a sense of, like, "Listen, we are doing stuff. People just don't see it, necessarily. Or people don't see how engaged the president is.” It is not a shock to you, I'm sure, Chuck, that that's what the White House is saying in defense of President Biden. But on the flip side of things, I was speaking with a Democratic member of Congress who said, "Yeah, there is real frustration on a couple of fronts." First, you've got frontliners, right? The more moderate folks who are up in these races in the midterms who feel like he's got to be doing more on the economy. There's a sense that there's that good jobs report out, objectively good jobs report out, right, on Friday. Why didn't the president do more to highlight it? He talked about it, yes. I think there were some people who wanted to see a more forceful response. On the other side you have the progressives that are saying, "Abortion, guns, where are you on this," right? Yes, he did that event on reproductive rights just this past week, the president did. But there is a sense that I've heard from people of saying, "Where was this the day that the Supreme Court made the decision? Why aren't you doing X, Y, and Z?" I think the White House response is, "Listen, we had things ready to go the day the decision came down. We're working on it. We've got our legal team doing it." It's not like they're hearing these suggestions and ignoring them.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, there's an expression "politics abhors the vacuum." Well, guess who's seen this vacuum? It's Gavin Newsom. I want to play this ad that he's running in Florida.
[START TAPE]
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM:
Freedom. It's under attack in your state. I urge all of you living in Florida to join the fight, or join us in California, where we still believe in freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose, freedom from hate, and the freedom to love. Don't let them take your freedom.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now, look, we can carve this up two ways, Mark. Look, Newsom is – he joined Truth Social, he's trying to pick fights with Trump, he's trying to pick a fight with DeSantis. But the messaging in there was fascinating. And I think that's what you hear from Democrats. Why isn't the White House -- and this is what he says, "Where's the party?" – I think this is him saying, "Hey guys, look, try this message."
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Exactly. And I think, you know, to be perfectly clear, I don't think Gavin Newsom cares about whether ten people in Florida move to California because they saw a bunch of ads. I mean, his message is to go national with these ads, as he is --
HALLIE JACKSON:
Get the attention.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Get the attention of people, get the attention of the White House. And look, it's a compelling message. And Gavin Newsom, frankly, with all due respect to President Biden, delivers it a lot more compellingly than a guy who's been on the national stage for as long as the current president is. So, look, I think it's very effective. I think it's a vacuum that is being filled. And I think, you know, this is probably a product of its own weakness from the White House.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, Rich, we're going to get to the Republican leadership problems in the next block, but it does feel as if Republicans only will have themselves to blame if they can't counter this.
RICH LOWRY:
Uh-huh. Well, I just think the Newsom thing is just to promote himself and to get us chatting about him, which is working.
CHUCK TODD:
But the freedom message is a fascinating thing to try to reclaim that word.
RICH LOWRY:
He's going to have to work really hard to reclaim that, given policy in California. But look, on Biden, I think there was this period of euphoria after the election with people kind of puffing him up into something that he wasn't. And now there's this period of existential despair when people are realizing what he actually is. He won the presidency by default. He's nearly 80 years old in a hugely demanding job. And it's not as though he hasn't said, from my perspective, incredibly over-the-top things about guns and abortion and voting and everything people want him to rise to the moment on. It's just he's not very compelling or vigorous. And that's just who he is, and it's not going to get any better.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, I would just say, as much as it relates to the 2024 chatter, somebody said this to me and I think there's some validity to it, that the single biggest thing that's going to stop this chatter about President Biden in 2024 is when and if Donald Trump announces he's running in 2024. Because there is nothing like that in the eyes of, I think, some folks that will solidify the Democratic Party around Joe Biden and put an end to the, like, "Dems in disarray" hashtag, at least temporarily.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, but I want to play this ad, Daniella, that's in North Carolina – Cheri Beasley making it clear she doesn't want to be associated with either party. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
CHERI BEASLEY:
We all know Washington doesn't make a lot of sense. So why send the same politicians and expect it to change? The special interests have too much power, and neither political party is getting it right.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That clearly, look – that’s the only way she's going to get to 50% in that state. We know those last 5% of voters in North Carolina, that tough. Can Democrats succeed and distance themselves from Washington at the same time?
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
Yes, they can, because politics are local. This is a local election about what's happening in North Carolina. And she needs to state clearly what she is going to do to deliver for the people in her state, how she will differentiate herself from what's happening in Washington, D.C. And again, this is a tale as old as time. People running away from the current occupant of the White House and focusing on how they're going to be independent and they're going to be different.
CHUCK TODD:
When does that ever work?
RICH LOWRY:
It also never works.
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
Biden – well, look –
RICH LOWRY:
It never works.
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
But you --
RICH LOWRY:
If the president’s at 38, it doesn't matter who you are or what you say.
DANIELLA GIBBS LÉGER:
But we’ve also never had a Supreme Court deliver the types of decisions they deliver. We've never had the attention around gun violence happening. I think this is different than other midterm elections.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Well, but also the face of the opposition party remains Donald Trump. I mean, you can go to the middle of the Charlotte airport in North Carolina and say, "Hey, there's going to be a rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump in two years. How do you feel about this?" I guarantee you seven out of ten of them are going to say, "Oh, just, like, kill me now." I mean, it’s just not – this is not an appealing message from the defining figures in both parties right now, which is why an ad like this is very effective, I think.
CHUCK TODD:
I guess the other thing is, is there any way they change this narrative? You said it has to be Trump just has to announce. Is there any success they can have? Or are we in a – is this baked in until November?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Yeah, you mean short of that, basically. I mean, I think Gina Raimondo – I was struck that she acknowledged to you pretty clearly that inflation is the reason why so many people are unhappy with the state of the country right now. And until, I think, there is -- what, what's that face?
CHUCK TODD:
No, I just don't understand why they haven't – I don’t get why they haven’t done some of these small things.
HALLIE JACKSON:
But this is what --
CHUCK TODD:
They proposed a gas tax holiday, right?
HALLIE JACKSON:
– I think they're hearing from members and lawmakers, right? Well, you asked her about that, right? But I do think that that is, to me, when I have these conversations with folks here who are lawmakers, who are coming in and reflecting what their constituents say, it's so much about the economy and inflation. It is about the Supreme Court decision. But I think there is still a question mark, at least for now, as to how much that's actually going to drive people to the polls. A lot of people say they will. You've heard that in that opening piece. But how much are you going to actually see that until we get to November.
RICH LOWRY:
There’s polling last week that had 5% of people as the top issue, abortion, 5%.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we will find out there. I don't understand. Some ideas to tackle inflation are too small to have an impact. Others are small, but let's see if it has an impact. They don't seem to have the same story for every idea that's floated out there. Anyway, when we come back, a story that takes more than 280 characters to tell. Elon Musk is trying to drop out of his $44 billion deal to buy Twitter. Kara Swisher joins me next to explain why this matters.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Elon Musk is a man who makes headlines, few bigger than when he announced on Friday that he now wants out of his mega $44 billion deal to buy Twitter and take it private. What happened and why? No better person to answer those questions than my friend Kara Swisher, co-host of Vox Media's Pivot podcast. Kara, welcome back to the show. This feels like the most predictable potential next thing that was going to happen the day he decided to buy it. So you're probably not surprised. But is he still going to own Twitter anyway?
KARA SWISHER:
Well, if a court makes him buy it right now. I mean, I think that's where it's going to go to. It's all a legal proceeding now. And I think it'll be hard for the court to force someone to pay that much money for something, and it's a little unprecedented. And, of course, they have Elon Musk, who likes to fight. And so he's going to fight with the Delaware courts. He's going to fight with Twitter. He's going to fight publicly. And so it could be a big mess and everyone might want to just have him pay the $1 billion breakup fee and go. But it could be a lot higher. He may have to, if Twitter presses it, he may have to pay a lot more for trying to get out of this deal.
CHUCK TODD:
And what's it mean for Twitter? I mean, look, this is a public square that certainly there's plenty of political debate that's sparked from it. And it matters to a small group of people, but it does matter a lot. What happens to the company? What happens to the product?
KARA SWISHER:
Nothing good from Twitter has come out of this sort of "Elon Musk is bored" routine that's been going on. I mean, obviously he's interested in the company because he likes the product. But a lot of this has become a circus, a ridiculous circus. And so I think it's not good for Twitter. It puts them in a bad position to have to do this lawsuit, especially with someone who doesn't care and sort of attacks them on their own platform, which is kind of ironic in a weird way. But it's not good for them. They've never had a very strong business, which is one of the reasons someone like Elon Musk or another buyer could do something with it. It's still a large platform, even though it's a small, small, business. It really is. And so for years it's underperformed, whether it's the stock or the revenues and this and that. And so, you know, there was a lot of promise here, possibility, but nothing good is going to come of this for them. And being in court against someone like that is not good for the business, not good for employee retention, not good for branding, advertisers, so not good.
CHUCK TODD:
So if bad for Twitter, good for who? Is this a boon for TikTok? A boon for Instagram? Who?
KARA SWISHER:
I guess, you know, they're just watching quietly from the sidelines while this goes on. It can't be good. They weren't much of a competitor to Facebook or TikTok. TikTok's been growing like crazy. Even Snapchat was doing very well until the recent downturn. Everybody's been hit, you know, really hard in the stock sell off. But they all were doing fine without Twitter, so it's not really going to affect them.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, all I know is it's Elon Musk, which means we will all be paying a lot of attention to this drama as it plays out in a Delaware--
KARA SWISHER:
Or not. Maybe not now, Chuck--
CHUCK TODD:
--top-tier court. Maybe not, all right. Fair enough. Kara Swisher, you always make us smarter. Thank you. When we come back, a conservative party dumps its leader after a series of scandals and embarrassment. Why the cases of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump so far have had very different endings. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Now, to the Republicans. So, Rich, there was a scandal plague, an embarrassing leader of the Conservative Party in the U.K. And there was finally the "enough is enough" moment, and they got rid of Boris. You know, arguably Mitch McConnell had a moment where he could've done the same thing the way the U.K. does, essentially the vote of no confidence. "We're dumping our leader. He can never be leader again." This American conservative party hasn't done it. Why?
RICH LOWRY:
Well, one, it's a different system. Two, the British Tories have an ingrained culture of stabbing their leaders in the back and in the front without compunction. And if decisions are being made in smoke-filled rooms here, the outcome would be differently about Trump. But that's not the way it works in our system. And at the end of the day, the issue is Trump has a significant hold on Republican voters. And critics of Trump, enemies of Trump who want him to go away just need to constantly remind themselves the people they need to convince, the sitting Republicans who voted for him twice, they like him.They're entertained by him. They're grateful for many things that he did. They hate the media. And they think Trump is often attacked unfairly. So from my perspective, the person who's likely to win over those voters from Trump eventually is someone Trump critics probably hate as well, someone like Ron DeSantis, rather than a Liz Cheney.
CHUCK TODD:
Hallie, what are you hearing on this?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. I think the Trump/DeSantis factor is a fascinating one here. You talked about that Gavin Newsom ad. You talked about the way that DeSantis has kind of become the, and let me think of a way to put it, but, like, if Donald Trump doesn't run, does Ron DeSantis take that mantle, right? But it's a different system he's got. I mean, Mark and I were talking about it. He's got a small circle of people around him. It's not like Donald Trump where it's this sprawling group of advisors, tons of people who are always talking about his plans, et cetera. I do think that if you look at 2024, I think that Mike Pence is clearly going to run. I do not think, as much as Mike Pence wants to have a hold on the sort of MAGA members of the Republican Party, he does not. I think that that's a question mark. I think evangelical Republicans he can make the case to. I think the more broad appeal is going to be elusive for him.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let's get to your book, Mr. Leibovich. Because in many ways, if you read your book, “Thank You for Your Servitude” here, you get the explanation for why what happened in the U.K. isn't yet happening here. And I want to start with this excerpt, because I think it gets at the core of actually the Republicans not understanding Trump. And the censors, be careful. "If you're a Republican in Washington--" and this is, an outgoing Republican member of Congress said this to you. "If you're a Republican in Washington, the idea is basically to make yourselves as much of a D-head as possible in order to get attention and impress the biggest D-head of all, the guy sitting in the White House." Finish the anecdote for me, because just what--
MARK LEIBOVICH:
I'm not going to finish the D-head for you.
CHUCK TODD:
No. But he would not put his name on this quote. Explain to me what he told you.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Because he said I might have to lobby them one day. Isn't it depressing? I mean, they actually said, "Isn't it depressing--"
CHUCK TODD:
They said the (UNINTEL PHRASE) not you--
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Yes, the whole thing.
HALLIE JACKSON:
(UNINTEL PHRASE).
MARK LEIBOVICH:
No, they made the entire point for me in this book. And look, conversations like this happen again and again in this book, in “Thank You for Your Servitude.” Have to say the title. You see the gap between 1) what Republicans will say publicly and privately play out again and again and again. And look, it's not like there's not a tradition of Republicans pushing back on the leadership of their party in America. I mean, the private view of Republicans towards this president is extremely harsh. It's extremely mocking. And look, politicians are always going to say different things in public and private before different audiences. I've never seen a gap wider than this.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay, but Daniella, the thing is, frankly, did this outgoing member of Congress understand the fact that he saw his service in Congress as a bridge to lobbying? Does he not understand that that's why Trump was able to get these--
(OVERTALK)
CHUCK TODD:
Right? Like, did he understand that part of the joke?
DANIELLA GIBBS LEGER:
Apparently not. I mean, that literally is the problem. And, I mean, I think you're right. Like, Republicans have to figure out what's more important to them. Is it the immediacy to power? Or do they care about their legacy? Do they care about what history books are going to write about them? As I say this I'm like, "Of course they don't care," because they've shown over and over again it's more important for them to win the next election than to, like, I don't know, maybe stand up for our democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, Lindsey Graham told you, "I've never been called this much by a president in my life."
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, he was addicted.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
They're all addicted. Look, I mean, there are any number of psychological reasons why people do certain things, you know, and make decisions like this. I mean, it's funny, Rich and I were in the green room before when Governor Hogan said, "Well, Republicans need to sort of figure out what they need to do." And it's like, it's been seven years. I mean, based on the precedent of recent history, the Republican m.o. in dealing with Donald Trump is fecklessness. And in doing this book, I learned this over and over and over again. And I don't think the revolution is going to be led by Lindsey Graham, or Kevin McCarthy, or Mitch McConnell. And, look, they've had the chance to do it over and over and over again. If he can survive January 6th, and for a few days it looked like he wasn't, and be where is today--
CHUCK TODD:
Well, this brings me to this. If he runs, will somebody explain to me how he accepts losing?
RICH LOWRY:
Yeah, that's a big--
HALLIE JACKSON:
You know the answer to that question.
RICH LOWRY:
That's a big conundrum. Look, I think there's probably maybe a 15% chance he doesn't run. But very likely he's in.
CHUCK TODD:
It seems like all these people--
HALLIE JACKSON:
I was going to say--
(OVERTALK)
CHUCK TODD:
The only answer is--
MARK LEIBOVICH:
That was another quote.
CHUCK TODD:
--(UNINTEL).
HALLIE JACKSON:
There is--
CHUCK TODD:
How many times did you (UNINTEL)--
MARK LEIBOVICH:
The only plan we have-- this is another former Republican congressman that said, "Look, we have no plan for this except sitting around hoping he dies." And, again, this quote--
CHUCK TODD:
Astonishing.
DANIELLA GIBBS LEGER:
This is so depressing--
MARK LEIBOVICH:
It's all so depressing. But it's also a fun book and it's a great beach read. But no, I mean, these conversations happen over and over again. And what's cast it in such sharp relief, and over the last few months is you see what's happening in England, you see what's happening on the January 6th commission. The courage that actually does happen in conservative circles is cast in such sharp relief with the punitive leadership of the Republican Party.
CHUCK TODD:
It is both a fun read, as you said, and absolutely infuriating. Congratulations. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. Enjoy the rest of your weekend and remember, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.