CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: crime and punishment. President Biden backs down from fighting a Republican effort to block D.C.'s more lenient approach to crime.
PAUL VALLAS:
We will make Chicago the safest city in America.
CHUCK TODD:
Just days after the perception of rising crime took down Chicago's mayor.
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
We fought the right fights.
CHUCK TODD:
Can Biden's moves help Democrats from being seen as soft on crime going into 2024? Plus, divide and conquer. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis isn't officially in the race yet. But he's eagerly courting Trump's base.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I think there's a strong anti-woke majority out there across the country.
CHUCK TODD:
The primary fight is kicked into high gear as more candidates consider challenging Trump.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
For those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to New Hampshire Republican Governor Chris Sununu, who's considering his own White House run. And, confronting China. A bipartisan push to face the growing threats from Beijing.
REP. MIKE GALLAGHER:
This is an existential struggle over what life will look like in the 21st century.
CHUCK TODD:
Tensions continue to escalate as the U.S. warns about supplying arms to Russia and new concern over Covid's origins.
FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY:
The origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident in Wuhan.
CHUCK TODD:
In a joint interview, I'll talk to the chair and ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Republican Mike Turner of Ohio and Democrat Jim Himes of Connecticut. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, USA Today Washington bureau chief Susan Page, and former Republican governor of North Carolina Pat McCrory. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. This may be the week where we saw the 2024 presidential campaign kick into full gear, and not just on the Republican side. President Biden's decision to block a D.C. crime law caught many Democrats off guard because it's going to be the first time in 30 years that Congress has nullified a law in D.C., and it's a Democratic president and a Democratic Senate. But if you view it through the lens of political calculation, it may make perfect sense. President Biden decided that neither he nor his party, with a big Senate map to defend, with a lot of red areas to defend, could afford to look soft on crime heading into 2024. Republicans tried to make crime a central issue in the 2022 midterms and they certainly had some success in New York State and a few other areas. But the results this week in the Chicago mayor's race, where voters fired the incumbent, are a reminder that crime and policing are still important to urban voters as well, a huge part of the democratic coalition. Democrats have been twisted in knots on the crime issue because it's a problem with swing voters. And Biden is trying to provide them with a way forward. The mirror image of sort of being twisted in knots for Republicans is the abortion issue. But no one in the GOP, at least to date, is taking the lead to try and come up with a modified solution to that political problem for them. If anything, the Republicans are more fractured and not just on the abortion issue, but about the general direction of the party. It's a divide that has been on full display this weekend. But there's one issue where there is little divide these days, and it is on China with its rising national security threats. The Secretary of State Antony Blinken issued yet another direct warning to China about sending lethal aid to Russia for the war in Ukraine.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
China can't have it both ways. It can't be putting itself out as a force for peace in public, while it, one way or another, continues to fuel the flames of this fire that Vladimir Putin started.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So we want to dig deeper into this. Joining me now are the chair and ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee appearing here together, Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio, and Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. Gentlemen, welcome back to Meet the Press, and thanks for coming on together.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Thanks for having me.
REP. JIM HIMES:
Thanks for having us.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we start on this stuff, your – this trail derailment overnight happened in your Congressional district. I know the shelter-in-place order is no longer. What more can you tell us, what more have you learned, and is the federal government responding?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Sure. This truly is outrageous. You know, Ohio is really the crossroads of America, both on the road and in rail. An unbelievable amount of goods travel through Ohio, some hazardous. What we've seen, you know, recently with the risk to communities is unacceptable. Luckily it seems we may have missed a bullet in this one, that this train may have been empty, and it looks like that hazardous materials is not going to be a threat to the community. We'll have to see.
CHUCK TODD:
Is it clear – do you think it's clear that the freight industry isn't well regulated and needs to be?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Oh, absolutely, and the fact that we're having derailment after derailment shows really the lack of investment, the disinvestment, in our infrastructure, and that needs to change.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to this, Congressman Himes, I'll start with this. I know both of you have been getting these briefings. Another warning to China, we heard it from the secretary of state about arming Russia. Our reporting indicates that this actually came from our intelligence inside of Russia. How serious is this threat, and do we know if China has made a final decision?
REP. JIM HIMES:
Well, no question it's a serious threat. We've seen the Russian military obviously come apart. The Chinese could reverse that in the same way that the Iranians are helping the Russians right now. I think the administration is doing the right thing by saying, "Don't do this." Now, it doesn't surprise me at all that there's a debate inside China about whether they should do this. Hopefully wisdom prevails. I couldn't help but note in the Chinese proposed peace plan, the 12th point said, "We need to focus on rebuilding China – rebuilding Russia." I could imagine the Chinese see a lot of business there.Obviously if they're a part of the Russian assault on Ukraine, they will not get that business. So no, I don't think a final decision has been made, but I do think it's wise for us to say, "Don't go there."
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Turner, you've noted that we have a different posture now in our intelligence. We're releasing more of it. Do you think more of it should be released to make sure the world believes us?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Right, well and obviously you've seen with the C.I.A. director even calling out China on this issue, that they are considering it as a huge shift in policy. And what we're seeing is the administration using intelligence to try to impact the outcome of policy, right? So they're not just saying, "We happen to know this and looking to hold someone accountable," they're trying to thwart them, to stop them from doing this. You know, the problem with China entering this is because, you know, you've got the West giving weapons to Ukraine, you've got Russia depleting their stores. We obviously, the West together, have an ability to impact Ukraine greater than Russia alone does. That would be an inexhaustible source of weapons if China and its production capacity supported Russia, and that would change the dynamic.
CHUCK TODD:
What kind of intel do we have on the state of the Russian Army, Congressman Himes, meaning like, we've seen some reports that they may be running out of munitions, they have some issues. What does our folk say?
REP. JIM HIMES:
Well, so neither Mike nor I can get too deep into any particular intel but, you know, you don't need to get too deep into intel. Consider the fact that you see every single day on television which is the entire Russian Army cannot take a town that nobody had ever heard of a year ago, the town of Bakhmut. Now, you know, Mike and I have been doing this long enough that we remember when we literally devoted hundreds of billions of dollars and much of our national security apparatus to this beast of a Russian military. Today we see that they can’t – even with the push of the president, Vladimir Putin, they can't take a town. That doesn't mean they're not still dangerous, they have nuclear weapons, but they are not what we thought they were.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play something. Sergei Lavrov was at the G20, Congressman Turner, and I mean, wait till you hear the reaction to something he said here. Let me play it.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SERGEI LAVROV:
The war which we are trying to stop which was launched against us using the Ukrainian people – [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] – of course influenced, influenced, influenced the policy of Russia.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You know, there's nothing like being able to say the phrase, "The world is laughing at that."
REP. JIM HIMES:
Completely, and spontaneously.
CHUCK TODD:
The world is laughing at this. What should the West use a moment like that for?
REP. JIM HIMES:
Well, the thing about both Putin, Lavrov and even Medvedev, although he's supposed to be the new face of a new Russia, come from an era where, you know, they controlled Eastern Europe. They could say things that were not true and people believed them because they controlled information. Today, information can't be controlled. So the laughability of what they're saying, the ridiculousness of what they're saying, is easily exposed.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, let me move to the issue of these classified documents. Nobody seems to be satisfied with what you've got. Congressman Himes, does that include you? Were you satisfied with the briefing?
REP. JIM HIMES:
So, we have a lot more work to do. Look, I think as the leaders of the intelligence committee, our number one job is to make sure that the DNI, the F.B.I., whoever needs to do it, does everything they need to do to protect the sources and methods that might have been exposed were any of those documents to have been out in the wild. So there's a lengthy process to figure out that, and I can't speak for Mike, but I will tell you that though we have been briefed, we've got a lot more to do to make sure that the government is doing what it should be doing.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask specifically, do you know what the Trump docs are, Congressman Turner?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
No, we –
CHUCK TODD:
Do you know what the Biden docs are, and do you know what the Pence docs are?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
No. But there are some things that we do know, and first off, I want to –
CHUCK TODD:
Let me stop there, no? They didn't share with you those things in a classified setting?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
Why?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, first off, in the things that we do know, one of the things we know is that the F.B.I. is not being forthcoming. They're not giving us the information. They're claiming that it's going to affect the outcome of their investigation, which of course it can't, because the people who are the targets of their investigation know what are in those documents. And we have the clearance and the ability to look at these documents. We also know from Avril Haines that she said that she was not consulted prior to the raid on Trump's Mar-a-Lago home, that in fact it was not a national security basis. So as we go through this process, they give us the category of the documents, and their assessment is to who had access to them, who did not have access to them, we're beginning to build an understanding. But the thing that we know is that it's unbelievable that administration after administration is apparently sloppy and messy, in their use of classified documents, and that's one thing on a bipartisan basis we have to address well beyond just this. This has to change, where classified documents are under a certain amount of control.
CHUCK TODD:
But Congressman Himes, do you at least know the classification levels of these docs? Is there a distinction between the Trump docs, the Biden docs, and the Pence docs, or not?
REP. JIM HIMES:
So we have not been shown anything that would allow us to draw that conclusion, and we've got to be a little careful here, because what we were shown, we were shown in the --
CHUCK TODD:
So you weren't briefed much?
REP. JIM HIMES:
– well, we were briefed, but let's just say that neither one of us are satisfied that we got enough information to execute our primary responsibility of making sure the sources and methods have been protected. We've got more to learn before we can be satisfied on that.
CHUCK TODD:
So right now you have no idea whether these were the highest level.
REP. JIM HIMES:
Well, we didn't say no idea.
CHUCK TODD:
Or the mid-level?
REP. JIM HIMES:
We didn't say no idea.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
REP.JIM HIMES:
Again, we can't get too into the details. We got a flavor for what was there, and I won't speak for Mike, but I will tell you, having been given a flavor, this is a very serious issue. This wasn't stuff that we can say clearly does not matter, it matters.
CHUCK TODD:
In all three cases?
REP. JIM HIMES:
Well, again, we don't know.
CHUCK TODD:
Or you're not ready to?
REP. JIM HIMES:
We don't know yet.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
One thing I can tell you Chuck which is important, which is also the symbolism of the fact that Jim and I are here together.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, Devin Nunez and Adam Shift I don't know they would have done this together.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Right. We have shifted, and it takes two to shift to a bipartisan basis, and you see it on the senate side too with Marco Rubio.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Senator Warner. And the approach to this issue, of the Biden docs, the Trump docs and the Pence docs, we're looking at holistically, what do we have to do to fix this? How do we address this? What were the risks involved? We have to understand also that without Congress having asked, there wasn't even a risk assessment being done. We were the ones who initiated this. That's part of the concern.
CHUCK TODD:
I get the sense that the intel community doesn't trust Congress and you guys – is that fair? Do you think you guys have to prove to them that you're trustworthy with secrets?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I would say it's more of a tension between the F.B.I. and Congress than it is the intelligence community. Because we're --
CHUCK TODD:
Well there’s more F.B.I. in Congress.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Absolutely. And I think that's going to come to head over the next couple of years. You're seeing it in a number of areas where they’re just not – you know, they are not special, they don't have greater privileges than the president does, and they're continuing to act as if they have some privilege to be able to operate without congressional oversight.
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Himes, I'm curious, that piece about sort of the tension between main Justice and the F.B.I. having to do with retrieving the classified documents from Mar-a-Lago. It looks like there was fear going in of retribution. The FBI’s -- are they more concerned about perception than whether they're doing their job? Are you worried about this?
REP. JIM HIMES:
Well, two things about the F.B.I.. first of all, and Mike's right, they are subject to Congressional oversight. Secondly, they do have to preserve the integrity of their investigation, and there are investigations on board right now. So we need to work with them. Because both of us, everybody, wants them to be able to do investigations in an unsloppy manner. We've got too much of a history of investigations in a somewhat sloppy manner. But of course there was consternation. Look, it's one thing to conduct a raid on average Joe citizen. To conduct a raid on a former president who, and I hope I don't insult my good chairman here who was sort of known for his aggressive retribution against people he didn't like, I'm sure that got a lot of discussion. But you, look, the lesson to be drawn here is if you don't want a raid on your home, don't take a year to cough up documents that we know are out there.
CHUCK TODD:
The COVID origin, go ahead.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Or six years. Because Biden took six.
REP. JIM HIMES:
Fair enough. Fair enough.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
The one aspect that's important here is that Merrick Garland did an unbelievable, terrible political miscalculation. He appointed a special prosecutor against Trump not realizing he was going to end up having to appointment one against his own boss.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
And that’s -- how that's going to play out is going to be amazing.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about the COVID origin situation. I think a lot of people were surprised to learn that the energy department had an intelligence agency, and in fairness. You know, some of us know that it's true, they deal with our nukes, there's a reason for it. But a lot of people didn't know. But I want to -- they labeled it low confidence. So how should the public take that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, it's not actually been released yet, these are all leaks that are reporting this. So –
CHUCK TODD:
Great. All the more helpful to --
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
– messing up the story, but fair.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
So we will neither confirm nor deny that they actually said that. But let's assume that they did. In all of this, because there's no direct evidence, we don't have China admitting it, we don't have Wuhan Lab handing these things over, all this is being assessed by looking at other aspects of the release. But I can tell you one thing that's of great concern, is that the 90 day review that was undertaken with a classified report and unclassified report that came out in the intelligence community, in my opinion, they don't match. If you read the unclassified version, and then you read the classified version, you would have thought that there would have been other things, other conclusions, in the unclassified version. And I think that's what we're seeing now is beginning to leak out, is that there are people who are saying, "Wait, I disagree with the underlying conclusion of the unclassified version."
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Himes, we're told this is still a minority view, but the F.B.I. director basically, it seems, used the energy department leak as a he wanted to go out there and he reaffirmed something that we had already known, that the F.B.I. was leaning more towards leak.
REP. JIM HIMES:
Yeah, look, I mean, you need to take a step back here and just as Mike said, we have so few facts because the Chinese regime has obfuscated -- look, this is hard to figure out when you can do it in Atlanta at the CDC if something goes wrong. We have so few facts that inevitably different agencies are going to arrive at different conclusions. And when an agency slightly adjusts its interpretation as the Department of Energy may have done, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden the government has a firm view. It may be forever before we actually know exactly what happened.
CHUCK TODD:
Don't we need a 9/11 Commission, something like this? I mean, isn't this –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
We need the Chinese to --
CHUCK TODD:
– necessary?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
We need the Chinese to cooperate.
CHUCK TODD:
Don't we need something like this?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, Speaker Kevin McCarthy has appointed a COVID select committee that is bipartisan, and it's beginning this process. In addition, there is now a China select committee looking at really 360, the issues with respect to the national security threats of China. So those things are moving forward in Congress. Beyond just what our committee's doing, and other committees and jurisdictions, there are now committees that are solely focused on justice issues.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Congressman Turner and Himes, this was terrific. I look forward to doing this quite a bit with you guys –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Thank you.
REP. JIM HIMES:
Thanks Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
– over the next year. When we come back, is it still Donald Trump's Republican Party? Well, it sure looks like it. And if you're one of his opponents, how do you navigate those waters? I'm going to ask Republican Governor Chris Sununu of New Hampshire who's considering his own run next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Republican presidential candidates were off and running this week, meeting the party faithful at two main stays of Republican politics. Former President Trump and former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley were among the top hopefuls attending the Conservative Political Action Conference, known as CPAC, while Florida governor Ron DeSantis promoted his new book in stops in California and Texas, after speaking to donors at the annual meeting of the Club for Growth, which was also attended by our next guest.Trump, DeSantis and Haley all are going to make their way to Iowa in the week ahead as well. But it was clear from President Trump's comments at CPAC, the battle for the heart of the base has already begun.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They cannot steer me, they cannot shake me, and they will never, ever control me, and they will never ever therefore control you. At the end of the day anyone else will be intimidated, bought off, blackmailed or ripped to shreds. I alone will never retreat.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Joining us now, a man who may be going up against the former president for the GOP presidential nomination, it's New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu. Governor Sununu, welcome back to Meet The Press.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Thank you so much.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, well you spoke at a donor conference this weekend. It was about national politics, potentially running for president. Are you closer to a decision, and what is holding you back if you're not?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Yeah, so no, I'm not really focusing on the decision right now. There will be plenty of time for that. Right now my mission is making sure we're making this party bigger, frankly. You can't govern if you don't win, and so I'm really focused on how do we win? No matter who the candidate is, how do we win in November of '24, where we have to attract independents, we have to bring that next generation of voters more on the team. There's a lot of gap between where we are as Republicans and the younger, let's call it the 27 and under, generation of potential Republicans. So I'm trying to steer the message in the right way. I'm trying to get folks a little more optimistic, inspirational, hopeful, for this great product that I think the Republicans have. Sometimes we're just not so great on the messaging.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting to me that you're at Club for Growth talking about making this your
message. The Club for Growth last year supported a lot of candidates that Donald Trump supported. Now they've broken from him on the presidential, but they spent a lot of times not supporting candidates that you just described, not supporting the candidates that arguably would have tried to grow the party or appeal to the middle. Have you heard any regret at this conference about how Club for Growth worked in 2022?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
No, look, it's not about regret. I think the entire Republican Party, hopefully they looked at November of '22, saw that we didn't win the races that we should have won, understand the value of candidate quality, of messaging, of getting out there early, of not letting Democrats define you early. It's not just about money, it's about having that collective message that has to go forward about being more optimistic, about being something that folks want to join. Not just with their dollars, but with their vote hopefully in November, and like I said, not let those Democrats define us. So no, I think it's just a fundamental change in approach that I think the entire Republican Party is very open to, and looking forward to, as we hit the November election.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand what you're trying to do. At the same time you heard the former president at CPAC, and he certainly has as stranglehold on 25 to 35% of the party, we can have a debate about the specific number, and you know what those folks want. They want to make liberals cry, right? Like, that's the message they want. They want that more than they want a big tent. So how do you appeal to those voters?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
You focus on leadership that is results-driven, that gets stuff done. You know, in 2017 and 2018 as a Republican I was told we were going to get immigration reform, it didn't happen. I was told about health care reform, I was told about balancing a budget, and taking care of our debt and not spending more than we actually have. Actually working towards free trade and these types of things that can be economic engines and drivers. A lot of that did not happen because – some good things happened, don't get me wrong. I give the president credit where it's deserved on regulatory reform and his speed of the vaccine, things like that. But a lot of things didn't happen. If you want to -- if there's that part of the party that wants to, as you said, "make liberals cry," or whatever it might be, you do it by winning, and you do it by getting stuff done, passing it through Congress, working on both sides, taking the first steps of securing the border and immigration reform. You do it by getting stuff done, not just through winning a nomination. You've got to close the deal, and you've got to get it done in '25. And so that's what we're doing. We're looking for the most conservative candidate that can win in '24 and actually work with Congress to kind of finish the deal, finish on that obligation, that accountability, in '25.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you may be running to lead a party that did this yesterday. The Texas Republican Party censured a Republican member of Congress, Tony Gonzales, who won a swing district, okay, in an area that, you know, is not always easy for Republicans to win. And his two sins were supporting a gun reform bill following the shooting at Uvalde and for voting to codify same-sex marriage protections. And I looked at what he was censured for and I’m like, "Boy, they haven't met Governor Sununu yet in Texas."
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, look, there are aspects of the Republican Party, whether it's the Texas Republican Party, the New Hampshire Republican Party, all the different groups that are out there, they have their own vision, they have their own leadership, they have their own agendas, of course. That's why as candidates we have to be about what we're about, what we're going to deliver, the accountability that we believe in, standing up and making sure we actually not just win the election, but show up and actually do the job. That's what ultimately galvanizes support around you. And Republicans cannot win without independents. It cannot happen. So if we just stay in this ultra-conservative extreme lane, which is a very small part of the party, by the way. That’s all we’re – I get it, that's where the headlines are going to be, right? But at the end of the day if we can get stuff done, I think governors do a great job of that, mayors do a great job of that. Senate and Congress not so much on either side of the aisle. But governors and mayors have an amazing ability every day to make decisions, to impact people's lives and deliver results. And that's exactly what folks are going to be looking for in '24.
CHUCK TODD:
The RNC chair Ronna McDaniel says that she wants to have candidates sign a pledge they'll support the Republican nominee no matter who it is if you want to participate in an RNC-sanctioned event. Are you comfortable signing that pledge if Donald Trump’s involved?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Yeah, look, I'm a lifelong Republican. I'm going to support the Republican nominee. When you look at what's coming out of the White House, it isn't Democrat policies, it's real left-wing extreme agenda type stuff that is not in the best interest of this country, and I have no doubt that any solid Republican would be better than what comes out. As far as former President Trump, I think he's going to run, obviously, he's in the race. He's not going to be the nominee, that's just not going to happen. And so I think there's a lot of opportunity to bring forward what the Republican Party, not what we were, not yesterday's leadership or yesterday's story, or crying about what happened in November of '22, but what we are going to bring to the table and get done tomorrow. That's what America's looking for, and so I'm really confident that whoever comes out of the Republican nomination process is going to lead this country and will be able to deliver a win in '24, and I'll back them.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, New Hampshire Republicans have a habit of actually always going for the outsider, whatever that moment is, in that moment, who the outsider candidate is. And it's been remarkable to me that Donald Trump looks like he's trying to be the outsider. He was – he ran the party, he was the institutional head of the party, he's running as an outsider. And I know you want to be the outsider, but in many ways he's already lumped everybody against him. Do you think he's effectively carving out an outsider lane for himself?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
I think the former president has his own lane. He doesn't need to carve anything. He's an absolute known commodity to every American in this country, right? There's very few people that are on the fence whether they're with him, or not with him, or whatever it might be. So I think he just has his lane and then there is everyone else, which is a vast majority of the party, that's looking for an alternative. Right now if the election were today, Ron DeSantis would win in New Hampshire, there's no doubt about that in my mind. I think Ron DeSantis would win in Florida. So he’s – I think the former president is trying to find a path to be back that leading voice of the party. I think a lot of us, you know, that potentially may get in the race want to have something to say about the direction of that conversation. But look, again, thank you for your service, we're moving on. I just don't believe the Republican party is going to say that the best leadership for America tomorrow is yesterday's leadership. That doesn't make any sense. That is not in our DNA as Americans. It's kind of the antithesis of the American spirit to settle for yesterday's news. We want the next generation, the next big idea, and that's what we're going to deliver.
CHUCK TODD:
The abortion issue is one that I think is twisted. If the crime issue has twisted the Democrats in knots, the abortion issue has twisted the Republican Party in knots. A lot of people dismiss your candidacy by simply saying the Republican Party is never going to nominate somebody who calls themselves pro-choice or has been identified as pro-choice. How do you change that sentiment in the party?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, the whole dynamic around that issue has changed, right? So most governors are taking it upon themselves to either if they're pro-life they're moving to ban it, and in some states they're making that choice, that's between them and their voters. There are some governors that are looking for this whole, you know, pro-abortion stuff up until the day of birth, and we'll see where that goes. That's terrible. New Hampshire has a 24-week rule, some states have 20 weeks, or 16 weeks, that's where we all are, right? So we all provide -- the majority of us provide some choice in some fashion. But if you're pro-life then those governors are going to truly ban it, if you're pro-abortion their – and the rest of us are kind of in the middle here. So I just think the fundamental conversation has changed so much. Not that it's not an important issue, but folks are going to have to really define themselves as to where they are. I don't worry about it too much because we have a 24-week rule in New Hampshire. It's pretty much where most of America is.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, you said something interesting in one of your previous interviews about, you know, this idea that if you get in it could dilute the field, and that helps Trump. And you said, "It's not about getting in, it's about knowing when to get out." So what does that mean?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Yeah. Well, that means, look, one thing I've learned – look, I've won four times. I've been in this political game for awhile. I’ve learned that you can't tell people not to run. If someone really wants to run, they're going to run, and that's fine. But unlike 2016, I'm going to make sure, and I think other folks are going to make sure, that we all have the discipline to get out before it's too late. And those that don't I think will be chastised very publicly for doing so. But I've got to be honest, I've talked to all the candidates. They all understand that, they really do. We're going to take our time, there's still a lot to play out over the next nine months to see who can really galvanize, to make sure that we have a candidate that's winning a true majority of the vote, and I have no confidence – I have full confidence, I should say, that we're going to get there.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, have you ruled out running for governor again?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
No, look, I don't rule anything out. I really don't. I just passed, or I didn't pass it yet, I submitted my balanced budget with a big surplus and all that kind of stuff to the legislature. I've got to go through my legislative session. So I love being governor. I mean, I love it. It is a job unlike any other. So we'll see what happens, you know, in the future.
CHUCK TODD:
What do you think Rupert Murdoch and Fox News need to do to regain some trust after what we've learned about this? And are you at all concerned you can have an honest conversation with Fox viewers?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Oh, well, I don't think it's just Fox. I mean, I'll put them in there, but all of media, all of television media, and everyone has to own a little bit of the lack of trust, the lack of accountability. It's okay to get something wrong in the news, but you've got to come back and own it. And whether it's Fox, or CNN, or MSBNC, or, you know, whatever, everyone just has to own it. As a governor, I might try four or five things, and if one or two don't work I'll say, "Hey, that didn't work."
CHUCK TODD:
What about intentionally --
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
But I own it.
CHUCK TODD:
– lying to viewers.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
We can acknowledge it, we can pivot the funding.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Intentionally lying to viewers, though, that to me seemed to cross a line.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, look –
CHUCK TODD:
You can make a mistake, but that wasn't a mistake.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
So explain to me – look, I'm not defending anybody because I think you're all in the same basket, I really do. But I could go to CNN when they're going to ignore the Hunter Biden laptop story, we could talk about the virus truly coming out of the lab in Wuhan, we could talk about a lot of different things. If you're not owning that you misrepresented the story, whether it was intentional or not, everybody does it, and that's the problem. America is losing faith in media, and you guys have a huge opportunity to regain that. But right now my message to Fox News is build your ratings. Build your audience, go bigger, because if we don't go bigger as a Republican party we can't win in November. So I want them to talk to independents. We'll not change our values, or who we are, or what we're talking about as Republicans. But get more opportunistic about the chance to bring more people in.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, governor I can promise you this: At NBC News, you make a mistake like that you would lose your job. I know that here, for what it's worth. Governor Sununu, appreciate you coming on.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Not you. You would never do it.
CHUCK TODD:
Sure, sure.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
I'm not worried about you.
CHUCK TODD:
I appreciate you saying that.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
You bet.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Appreciate it. Up next, President Biden frustrated some Democrats but may have given a lifeline to others by trying to look tougher on the crime issue. Was it the right move? The panel weighs in next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, former Republican Governor of North Carolina Pat McCrory, and the Bureau Chief of U.S.A. Today Susan Page. Welcome to all of you. Hallie, I want to start with what I think was the first -- you know, we're talking about the presidential race is gearing up on the Republican side. But President Biden, what he did in, I guess you could call it, a triangulation on crime -- we may be nullifying the first law in D.C. -- I want to play with Muriel Bowser's reaction was to this. I interviewed her on Friday. Let me play her reaction and then let's talk about it on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER:
The president had issued a pretty direct and very supportive statement of administration about D.C. autonomy. And we wholeheartedly agree, President Biden has been a vocal supporter of D.C. home rule and statehood for Washington. I vetoed the bill. Unfortunately, we live with the indignity of limited home rule in this -- in the District of Columbia.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
All right. This is quickly -- I'm going to try to get through this fast. This is complicated. D.C. did a rewrite of part of its criminal code. Mayor Bowser vetoed it. The City Council overturned her veto, 12-1, mind you. And then Congress does have the ability – the House side does – and they're essentially vetoing the overrule of the veto and nullifying this law, or at least they will. What's interesting here is progressives have been muted in their criticism of the president. It looks like he made the right call here, because the party's sort of backing off. Muriel Bowser was not ready to criticize him for doing this.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, I mean, I will tell you, there is still a real sense of anger among some Democratic members of Congress who are, in the words of one person that I talked to just yesterday, supremely pissed by what they saw as a surprisingly incompetent move, again -- I'm quoting here -- by the White House to, as you say, triangulate this way. I think there is a sense, and I've talked with current and former White House officials, who believe that this is anger that will essentially blow over on the politics piece of it. But I've heard questions raised about the credibility that the White House has now moving forward, when there might be other tough votes. Look at what the NRCC, the Republican campaign arm is doing, putting out, you know, these sort of statements saying, "Hey, the ad scripts write themselves for these dozens of Democrats who took a tough vote on an issue that has been tough for Democrats." I think there is an acknowledgment from Democrats they're not where they want to be on crime. I've been encouraged by Democratic sources to look at it through the lens of the midterms in places like Pennsylvania, where Democrats did well where crime was an issue. That, of course, disregards a place like Wisconsin, where that wasn't the case.
CHUCK TODD:
Or New York.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
You know what's interesting here, Jeh Johnson. Look, there were 31 Democrats that did vote with the Republicans on this issue in the House.
JEH JOHNSON:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Twenty of the 31 won with 55% of the vote --
JEH JOHNSON:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
-- or less on this. The anger coming from House Democrats are folks who have thought, "Wait a minute, you were going to provide cover -- you're providing cover for Bob Casey Jr.? You were going to provide cover? I wish you would have told me. I might have voted differently."
JEH JOHNSON:
Well, first I can't believe that the chair and ranking of the House Intel Committee have not seen the classified documents, okay? This is not that hard. I used to be in the middle of those fights. You just simply say to the FBI, "Look, go to the nearest classified copy machine, put it in a pouch, bring it over here to the Hill, one copy. Let me see it and I’ll give it right back to you. How else is the legislative branch itself supposed to conduct any sort of meaningful oversight on the damage assessment? Okay, so, Democrats and crime. I’ve written op/eds on this. I think Joe Biden and Muriel Bowser are absolutely right. Democrats lose elections, particularly presidents and mayors, who are perceived as soft on crime, in blue communities. And it bears emphasis that, in big cities, crime is the uppermost issue. Just ask people on MLK Avenue across the review in Anacostia, Michigan Avenue in South Chicago. Crime is an intensely personal issue, and they want to see their leaders address it. This is how we got Rudy Giuliani, you know, in 1993 in New York City.
CHUCK TODD:
Speaking of Republican mayors of blue cities, you were one, Pat.
PAT McCRORY:
Absolutely. In the '93, '95, the 2000, Giuliani, Daley, McCrory, Mike Turner of Dayton. We had mayors, Republicans and Democrats, who were tough on crime because the gangs were taking over cities, drug trade was taking over cities, the homelessness was taking over our city, and we took aggressive action. And as a result, we had large drops in especially the murder rate and the gang activity. And it was coordinated with the federal government enforcing federal gun laws. And then for whatever reason, the left took over the cities, and the Democratic Party nationally, and the crime rate went up because we started letting career criminals back on the street.
JEH JOHNSON:
And it's not --
PAT McCRORY:
And they're paying for it right now, and they deserve to pay for it.
JEH JOHNSON:
Democrats -- it's not like Democrats don't have an argument here. Respectfully, governor --
PAT McCRORY:
Respectfully.
JEH JOHNSON:
-- Democrats are the ones that want to get guns off the streets.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Susan, what's fascinating here is how the mayors -- these Democratic mayors -- are being pressured -- they’re being pressured on both sides, because these city councils are way to the left of the mayors. We see it here in D.C.. I mean, 12 – the veto override of Muriel Bowser was 12-1. This wasn’t -- it wasn't like there was a big divide. The progressives have made a lot of progress on these City Councils, but they haven't been able to win mayors' races. But it's really put mayors in the cross-hairs.
SUSAN PAGE:
Well, and in fairness you're talking a lot about social justice issues and police reform and the need for that. And we see the need for that over and over again in some of the shootings of unarmed Black men, which continues across this country. But to make it a choice between crime and social justice is a real problem for Democrats. And I think you see with Joe Biden's decision on where he stands on this, is his -- that is his reelection announcement. On this issue of crime and on border security he has in recent weeks moved to shore up what would've been the strongest issues against him in a re-election campaign.
CHUCK TODD:
And so far the left's been muted on this, even on immigration.
HALLIE JACKSON:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
You hear the complaints in press releases, but you're not hearing elected officials do it.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Coming out on TV --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
HALLIE JACKSON:
-- doing the whole thing, doing the whole circuit. You know, and I would be curious as to Secretary Johnson's perspective on this. I would say to your point, though, when it comes to the issue writ large, Democrats I think truly are looking to get on offense on this. You mentioned something that I've heard that they're looking to do, which is talk about, for example, the assault weapons ban that President Biden wants. It has truly pragmatically, virtually no shot in Congress as it is laid out right now -- funding I've heard about for the COPS program, et cetera. But you also have Democrats who are pointing to, for example, Matt Gaetz going out at CPAC this weekend and saying, "Let's abolish the FBI, let's abolish the ATF" --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
HALLIE JACKSON:
-- and hoping to use that as a wedge issue as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh, very quickly, what do you make so far of what Secretary Mayorkas and the Biden administration have done? It looks like it's working, but we'll really find out in May, I guess.
JEH JOHNSON:
Well, working off what we did in Venezuela in the fall, where we provided a legal safe pathway, which will discourage people from entering unlawfully, they've expanded that. And it looks like it's working, though it's way too early to declare victory. The numbers were down in January, but January is typically a low month.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, it takes a couple more months to judge. All right, we're going to get to the good stuff when we come back. We're going to talk a little Trump when you guys come back. But first, we're going to talk about President Biden's plan to cancel student loan debt and the uncertain future of that. We're going to show you how many borrowers will be impacted and what's really at stake here politically.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. So this week the Supreme Court heard arguments on the Biden administration's plan to provide student loan debt relief for tens of millions of Americans. If the justices, though, strike it down, there are going to be a lot of unhappy voters across the country in 2024, including many in important battleground states. So let's unpack this. How did we get here? Well, first, let's look at the cost of college tuition. In over the last 30 years, the cost of a private university's tuition has gone up 80%, tuition at a public university has gone up 125%. Those are some big jumps. For what it's worth, the cost of both housing and cars, those numbers are -- percentages are actually higher than the cost of education. Still, this Biden student debt relief plan, if enacted, would provide up to $20,000 of relief for those that got Pell grants. Up to $10,000 for those with other types of student loans. And guess what, when this was offered, it was popular. Over 26 million people have already applied for this debt relief, even though it is not clear whether it's going to be allowed to happen. And if you break it down by states, and you know, how we like to do it around here, by battleground states, you see, these are some big chunks of voters who might not be happy if this gets overturned. Over a million in Pennsylvania, over a million and a half in Florida. A million in Georgia. You see where this is going. This is a popular program. If it gets repealed, there are going to be some unhappy voters. Before we go, this week marks the 58th anniversary of Bloody Sunday, when police beat and tear gassed hundreds of protesters in Selma, Alabama who were marching for racial equality and voting rights. Back in 2015, I had the honor of speaking to Congressman John Lewis on the 50th anniversary of the Selma march about his experience leading the marchers that day.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. JOHN LEWIS:
We were kneeling. We were knocked down. They started beating us with nightsticks, trampling us with horses, releasing the tear gas. I was hit in the head by a state trooper with a nightstick. I lost consciousness. Fifty years later, I don't recall how I made it back across that bridge to the little church that we had left from. Apparently, a group literally carried me back to the church.
CHUCK TODD:
It'd be perfectly understandable if you were bitter. Bitter today, bitter a week later from when it happened, bitter 20 years. Were you bitter, ever, after all this?
REP. JOHN LEWIS:
I was not bitter then. I'm not bitter now. I grew up in a movement to accept the way of love, the way of peace, the way of non-violence, the way of forgiveness, as a way of life, as a way of living.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
John Lewis died in 2020. President Biden is in Selma today to commemorate the anniversary of Bloody Sunday, and the Reverend Al Sharpton will be leading the march alongside him. Up next, can Ron DeSantis stop Trump from the nomination while still courting the Trump voter? We're about to find out.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. All right. The Republican presidential primary. Donald Trump in some ways reannounced, if you will, this weekend at CPAC. Take a listen to his message.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:
We are never going back to the party of Paul Ryan, Karl Rove and Jeb Bush. We're not going back to people that want to destroy our great social security system, even some in our own party. I wonder who that might be. In 2016, I declared I am your voice. Today, I add, I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Pat McCrory: “I am your retribution.”
PAT McCRORY:
Wow. To see a lot of good Republican candidates who would make great presidents grovel or kiss up to both CPAC and Club for Growth, is, is – it bothers me because not one of those groups has ever solved a problem. And right now, we have some complex problems in this country that have to be solved. And what Donald Trump's going to realize is they're going to start having infighting among those two groups because CPAC's with Trump, but Club for Growth, who used Trump in primary commercials to push their candidate, are probably going to turn on Trump. So, we have this internal warfare which may result in a general election where the Democrats have their candidate, the Republicans have the last candidate, and it might open up the door for a third-party candidate because the independent voter, which is 40% of the registered voters now in America, are going to go, "Is this the only choice we have?"
CHUCK TODD:
Susan, we did a little survey of CPAC attendees just on the issue of Ukraine. And it just shows you where the Trump base is on this. And it shows you this is a different lane than what we're used to. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
BARRY MORGENSTEIN:
Of course I feel for the people of Ukraine. I would like them to beat the Russians, but we have so many problems. We have open borders here that the money could be going to.
AMY SHANK:
Well, I think support is okay. But I think we need to be focusing on the people here first rather than other countries.
RENE CAMPBELL:
Don't take my taxpayer money and send it over to Ukraine. Enough with this, you know. Enough with this war.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Susan, I think what's remarkable here is Donald Trump's carving out the outsider lane. I mean, this is not the mainstream Republican position these days on Ukraine. But it is Trump's position.
SUSAN PAGE:
It is, although – and it's not the mainstream Republican position, and it's not Mitch McConnell's view, for instance. But there is growing public concern, and not just among Trump voters, about the extend and the length and the cost of the U.S. commitment to Ukraine. And still majority support for continuing the effort, but it is really pressuring the administration to come up with some answers about how this war could end in a successful way and not go on forever. But it – Trump – we say it's not the mainstream Republican position. This is Trump's party. This is not the Republican Party. It's the Trump party. Trump's position becomes the Republican position.
CHUCK TODD:
But has he – has he somehow been able to position DeSantis as part of the establishment?
HALLIE JACKSON:
You said this a couple – you said this just now. You said it to Governor Sununu. And I wrote it down because it was interesting to me. The idea that Donald Trump is trying to run as an outsider. Because, you know, from the jump I have been hearing from sources close to his team that they want a position that's his a la 2016, obviously not as of a la 2020. And somebody said to me this weekend, "Well, you know, he's doing better than he was at this point in 2016." And I said, "I sure hope so. He was the president for four years." I mean, it's almost as though they're trying to erase the fact that he was in the White House for four years to do what you're talking about here. Is he going to come up with a new nickname for DeSantis? How is he going to position him as the outsider? But I will tell you what is so interesting to me just in talking with people in the last 24 hours about sort of CPAC and Club for Growth. You know, Trump allies are saying this is the most important gathering of conservatives since – that will happen in this campaign until the Republican primary debate. And then I heard somebody else, a rival campaign adviser, let's say, say, "Well, wait a second. This is a bunch of MAGA misfits who are showing up" – their words, right? And I'm not quoting but paraphrasing here, "Showing up to be super pro-Trump here. And actually, the adults in the room are going to Club for Growth and talking about what they're going to do on – from a policy perspective.”
CHUCK TODD:
But you know what the difference is between the Club for Growth and CPAC? The Club for Growth – the folks at Club for Growth talk behind the cameras, behind the scenes, not to voters, but to donors, acting like establishment people. Donald Trump was talking to people. Whatever you think of it, he was talking to the public.
JEH JOHNSON:
This could be wild. You could have the major candidate in the party, an indicted criminal defendant, out on bail.
CHUCK TODD:
He said he was going to keep running if indicted.
HALLIE JACKSON:
But do you know what the most interesting thing he said was to me? Because this is a lot of sort of similar grievances we've heard. You know what was new? He said people should vote by mail-in ballot.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, yeah. Speaking of new, Larry Hogan is not running. I assume that has as much to do with Chris Sununu, perhaps, getting a jumpstart on him.
PAT McCRORY:
Well, they're all looking for a lane. And he probably didn't see a lane unless it's a third-party potential lane which, again, could happen.
CHUCK TODD:
You, you – look. You've been to some meetings with No Labels.
PAT McCRORY:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
Joe Manchin's been to some meetings with No Labels. He's been flirting about this. Is this only if it's Trump/Biden that this gets traction?
PAT McCRORY:
I think if it's two choices where the majority of people say, "The parties have failed us," there's a better choice to be president of the United States.
SUSAN PAGE:
And you elect – and you elect Donald Trump because of voters who draw with the No Labels candidate come from the Democratic side.
PAT McCRORY:
And they're getting on the ballots. They're getting on the ballots in the states. And you've got to remember, ballots is a state issue, not a federal issue. It's not a party issue. It's a state issue.
CHUCK TODD:
So their – that's their goal, that they can get ballot access to all 50 states.
PAT McCRORY:
Get on the ballot enough to win the presidency.
CHUCK TODD:
They've tried this. Do you buy it?
PAT McCRORY:
It's an insurance policy. If the majority of people do not agree with the two parties' selection, and right now the majority of Democrats don't agree with Biden, and the majority of Republicans don't agree with Trump. So, it's going to be interesting --
SUSAN PAGE:
But there's a significant fraction of Republican voters who will stick with Trump no matter what.
PAT McCRORY:
Oh, I know that well.
SUSAN PAGE:
If he's in jail, they will stick with Trump.
JEH JOHNSON:
That’s right.
SUSAN PAGE:
And that is a kind of diamond-hard support no other candidate in America would have.
PAT McCRORY:
Club for Growth is money talking. It's big super PAC money.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Speaking of that, I've got to stop the talking because I've got to end the show. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, even Selection Sunday, it's Meet the Press.