KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, wartime support
REP. MARC MOLINARO:
The bill is passed.
KRISTEN WELKER:
After months of delays, Republican Speaker Mike Johnson moves forward with a historic vote on military aid to Ukraine despite threats to oust him.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE:
He’s serving Ukraine first and America last.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
I've done here what i believe to be the right thing
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will weapons make it to the front lines in time?
REP. ROSA DELAURO:
For months and months we have been diddling around where people are dying.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And is it enough for Ukraine to win the war? I’ll speak exclusively with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Plus, on the defensive.
REPORTER:
What kind of juror in your mind is an ideal juror in this trial?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Anybody that’s fair
KRISTEN WELKER:
As Donald Trump's first criminal trial begins, President Biden’s approval rating rises in our latest NBC News poll.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Under my predecessor, who’s busy right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But enthusiasm for the 2024 election is still the lowest in decades. Steve Kornacki will break down the latest numbers. And, history lessons. Presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin joins me for a Meet the Moment conversation reflecting on the resilience of America even in turbulent times.
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
I always feel so – so positive about what history can teach us, because we've lived through really hard times before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell, democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. We begin with our brand new NBC News poll and the headline President Biden is closing the gap with former President Trump. Trump leads Biden by two points in a head-to-head matchup, 46 to 44%. Biden has narrowed that deficit against Trump from 5 points in January. And when third party candidates, including Robert F. Kennedy, are included, Biden leads by two points, 39 to 37%. The president's job approval has also ticked up to 42%, up five points from January. The last time we’ve seen a five-point increase for an incumbent president in their re-election year was Bill Clinton in 1996. There are still troubling numbers in the poll for Biden. He trails Trump by 22 points on dealing with inflation and the cost of living. All of it comes amid a major foreign policy development. Six months after the president delivered an Oval Office speech pleading for wartime aid for Ukraine, $61 billion dollars in new funding finally passed on Saturday 311 to 112.
[START TAPE]
REP. MARC MOLINARO:
The bill is passed.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
A moment of bipartisanship in a Congress primarily defined by its dysfunction. 101 Republicans and 210 Democrats voted in favor. But more Republicans, 112, opposed it. Congress also passed new aid for Israel and Taiwan, along with a measure to force TikTok parent company ByteDance to sell the app. New aid for Ukraine came only after Republican Speaker Mike Johnson, who once opposed it, did an about-face and put his job on the line to get it through, amid threats from three far right Republicans to oust him.
[START TAPE]
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
If we turn our backs right now, the consequences could be devastating.
REPORTER:
You're being asked to resign, will you?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
No, listen, I – I – as I've said many times I don't walk around this building being worried about a motion to vacate. I have to do my job. We – we did. I've done here what I believe to be the right thing and that is to allow the house to work its will and as I've said you do the right thing and you let the chips fall where they may.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The Pentagon has said it has a massive infusion of military aid for Ukraine ready to go. It comes as Ukrainian President Zelenskyy said that without this support, we will have no chance of winning. Ukraine's top military commander issued a bleak assessment of the army’s positions on the eastern front, saying they have worsened significantly in recent days. And the top American military commander in Europe told members of Congress that Russia will soon be able to fire ten shells for every Ukrainian shell.
[START TAPE]
GEN. CHRISTOPHER CAVOLI:
If one side can shoot and the other side can’t shoot back, the side that can’t shoot back loses.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. President Zelenskyy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Good morning, and greetings to you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, President Zelenskyy, it is an historic morning. I want to get your reaction to this major news, the House approving $61 billion in aid to Ukraine. It's expected to pass through the Senate. But you have been asking for this aid for six months. In that time, you have run out of ammunition. You've suffered setbacks on the battlefield. Will you get this aid in time to make a difference?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Yeah, it's been so important. And we'd like to say thanks to the Congress for the bipartisan support. And we'd like to say thanks to Speaker Johnson and President Biden. Indeed, it is so important, the support from the United States of America. Of course, we need the support of the American people because, of course, the political decisions depend on the public opinion. And this aid will strengthen Ukraine, and send the Kremlin a powerful signal that it will not be the second Afghanistan. The United States will stay with Ukraine, will protect the Ukrainians, and they will protect – they will protect democracy in the world. This is the show of leadership and strength of the United States. And I think, indeed, now we've reached this important moment. For half a year we've been waiting and I would like to say thanks to all the team on my side and on the U.S. side, the team who did everything so that we would get this positive vote. And today, we definitely need this aid. And Kristen, we really need to get this to the final point. We need to get it approved by the Senate. And then we want to get things as fast as possible so that we get some tangible assistance for the soldiers on the front line as soon as possible, not in another six months, so that they will be able to move ahead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, you said this week, President Zelenskyy, that Ukraine would have “no chance of winning” without more U.S. support. And I guess the question is can Ukraine now win this war? Or is the United States merely giving you enough aid to prolong this war?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Thank you. I think this support will really strengthen the armed forces of Ukraine. And we will have a chance for victory if Ukraine really gets the weapon system which we need so much. We - thousands of soldiers need so much, and this aid should not be just spread into layers all over, but it has to end up in tangible weapon systems. Some really crucial weapon systems which are hard to get. The long-range artillery and I really appreciate that it mentions ATACMs, long-range weapons. And it's important because we need long-range weapons to not lose people on the front line. Because we have – we have casualties because we cannot reach that far. Our weapons are not that long-range. So we need it, and air defense. This is crucial. These are the priorities now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, as you know, this aid was held up for half a year because there is fierce opposition to sending war aid to Ukraine, particularly amongst some Republicans. How long should Americans be expected to fund the war in Ukraine?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
The Americans are not funding the war in Ukraine. They foremost protect freedom and democracy all over Europe. And Ukraine is fighting, and Ukraine is sending its best sons and daughters to the front line and this reduces the price for all Europe, for all NATO. It reduces the price for everyone, including the U.S. as the leaders in NATO. U.S. army now does not have to fight protecting NATO countries. Ukrainians are doing that. And it's only the ammo that the civilized world is providing. And I think it's a good decision. That is why we do need to keep supporting. While Ukraine stands, there's no direct war between U.S. or NATO and Russian aggression. So Ukraine is still fighting, and Ukraine is protecting all the others.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But President Zelenskyy, can you give Americans a sense of the timeline? Will you still need as much aid this time next year? Or do you think you can turn the corner on Russia? What's the timeline?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Well, it depends on when we actually get weapons on the ground, as you said it Kristen. If we get it in half a year. Well, we've had the process to hold for half a year. And we had losses in several directions. The losses in men, in equipment. In the east it was very difficult. And we did lose the initiative there. Now we have all the chance to stabilize the situation and to overtake the initiative. And that's why we need to actually have the weapon systems. When we get it, when we have it in our arms, then we do have the chance to take this initiative and to move ahead to protect Ukraine. But giving U.S. specific timeline of the war, well, it depends on how soon we get this aid. There are so many variables, so many factors. And sometimes when we protect the important line, you retreat because you don't have enough forces and equipment. And then retaking the climb would take two or three times more. And I'm not saying that this is how it's going to end up. But things are possible, and I can give you an example with F-16. It's a great example. The decision to supply F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine, we've had it a year ago. One year ago, we got the positive response. Ukraine should receive these fighter jets, so that not only air defense could protect the sky, but we also have more than jets. A year has passed. We still don't have the jets in Ukraine. So it's very difficult to do any forecast. I would like us to be open and very, very specific. From the moment we get our hands on these weapon systems, well, from that moment, we can talk about the timeline.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, Ukrainian intelligence suggests that the Kremlin is preparing for a major offensive in the coming months. You have said by your own account that they are prepared to outgun you ten to one in fire power by some estimations. Will you be ready for that offensive?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
We are preparing. The personnel is preparing. The soldiers are engaged in training. And I don't want to repeat myself, but we are waiting for the weapon systems because we want to have the brigades fully equipped. Some of them are exhausted. We need to replace them. But these new brigades, they have to have the equipment. Russia wants to mobilize 300,000 people by June 1st. We are getting ready for this. By May 9th, Russia expects that in the east of Ukraine they will take Chasiv Yar city. I visited the region recently. I talked to the soldiers. The soldiers say that they lack equipment. They need to fight Russian reconnaissance drones, which essentially guide the artillery and we need artillery shells. I hope we will be able to stay, and the weapons will come on time, and we will repel the enemy and then we'll break the plans of the Russian Federation with regards to this full-scale offensive.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you, President Zelenskyy, about reports of a lack of morale. Some 650,000 men who are eligible to fight, we are told, have fled Ukraine. You have lowered the draft eligible age, but you've resisted a full call-up of all Ukrainian men. What do you say to young men who don't want to fight, who don't want to risk their lives in this war for their country?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
This war is the war for the sake of all of us. This is our land. We don't have another place to go. And the citizens of Ukraine understand that. Of course, there are people who don't want to, are not ready. But we do have this mobilization campaign. We do have the draft. We do have a strong army. And we can be frank. In Russia, of course they have more people and people are forced there. So, for example, if someone in Russia is deserting the battlefield, they just shoot them on sight. We cannot do that because we have the democratic values, believe in the democratic country. So, to be frank, in Ukraine we have a lot of people who are ready to protect the motherland. But of course the motivation, the morale can go down, especially when they go to the front line and they see that, well, there are no shells. There is no equipment. That's why the aid from the states is so important. And people need to be trained by professional people and they need to have the equipment to be used so that they have this so people, not only on the training field, but also on the actual battlefield. And then, indeed, they can show the performance on the front line. This is very important.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy –
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
– And then the morale will go high. And then they will indeed defend the motherland.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The Washington Post is reporting that Donald Trump has said privately he could end Russia's war in Ukraine by pressuring Ukraine to give up some territory like Crimea, like the Donbas region. What is your reaction and realistically speaking do you see this war ending in a negotiation with Russia.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Let's just say that, well, I'm a president of a country at war. And rumors and different hearsay, I don't believe that. When Trump comes here and would tell me their formula of peace, then I would be able to provide the response. At the moment, I know that, well, things Putin wants to show, they cannot happen.And I'm sure that people who know him well, they know. But you can never trust Putin. It's impossible. So the strategy of ending the war should be based not on the words which Putin says or some other people from his entourage say, but on something very specific. Something – something very tangible in Ukraine that is independent and democratic. And I'm confident that everyone is interested in that. All the political leaders in the U.S., they are also interested to have Ukraine independent and sovereign and democratic. It's of interest for both the Republicans and the Democrats.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, back in February Donald Trump encouraged Putin to invade NATO countries that he doesn't believe are contributing enough to defense spending. What kind of a message do you think that sends to the world?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
Well, I don't know the details of that speech. I know for sure if Ukraine fails, then Putin – then Putin definitely will invade the Baltic countries. Why? Not because there's some interesting idea, strategy, but because Putin wants to return the influence of the Soviet Union. And he really wants to retake the force to war. He wants to retake all former Soviet republics and now independent states. Whether they are in the NATO or not, he doesn't care. That is why this is his strategy. Of course, after the Baltic states, also Poland and parts of Germany would also –
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, big picture. Germany's top military official has warned that Putin could be ready to attack NATO countries in as soon as five years, following up on what you're saying. How big of a threat do you see Putin to the West?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
I think he does want to go further. As I said, he wants to reinstate Soviet Union and the Soviet – the Soviet bloc. And they do that in terms of information, misinformation. They just drive different political groups and democracies. Not only Europe, in Latin America, in Africa, they have the influence everywhere. And they do this to split the world. So the risk is high. I think this German diplomat said that it's not even about the wish of Putin, but it's that if Putin is not stopped, then Putin is ready to attack NATO. Even look at the sheer size of the army and the weapons that they have. So we have to be ready to stop him now. Because the froze in conflicts, well, we've seen that in Georgia. We've seen that in other countries. So if we give the big pause to Putin, if we freeze the war right where we are, this will enable him because all his industry will start working not for the war in Ukraine, but will start working for the war against NATO.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, you are not just a president. You are also a father. You have survived multiple assassination attempts. Tens of thousands of your fellow citizens have been killed and injured. Millions have left their homes. Have you ever lost hope?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY [TRANSLATED]:
You can never lose hope. You can never lose hope. You can never lose freedom. You can never lose independence. Otherwise, you just lose everything. You lose your state. You lose your security for your children, for – all the children in Ukraine are my children. I will then lose everything. And I have to show the example. If I lose hope, well, my children would lose their future independent country. And then we would lose Ukraine as – as the nation. It's not only about the territory. It's about ourselves, our identity. So we cannot lose hope. We've had different moments, some very cruel. There were moments of challenge. And I'm sure in the history of the United States they also had many moments when the people of the U.S. had to fight for their independence. We remember the period of struggling, when many people lost hope. Or some people emigrated to France. But some people raised the banner, the United States, the banner of independence. And some people were skeptical on both sides of the ocean, in Europe too. But people didn't give up. And I think, well, you got the independent country. And the world got this great democracy. So we cannot lose hope either.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Zelenskyy, thank you for being here on this monumental morning. We really appreciate your perspective and having a chance to talk to you. When we come back, Steve Kornacki is here with the results of our latest NBC News poll.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. For more on the NBC News poll, I'm joined by National Political Correspondent Steve Kornacki to break down the numbers. A lot of headlines here, Steve.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Absolutely, Kristen. I think the biggest headline, this. Let's give you the bottom line. Donald Trump does lead Joe Biden 46% to 44% in our poll. But this is a tightening from our last poll. You could see three months ago Donald Trump had a five-point lead against the current president. That five-point lead, now down to two points, so there is progress here for Biden in the last three months.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Coming after the State of the Union, and he's had a campaign blitz.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Yeah, and the Democratic primaries, such as they were, coming to an end. Perhaps there's Democrats rallying around Biden, too. Also, I think not coincidentally, this slight improvement here for Biden tracks with a slight improvement in his job approval rating. It now sits at 42%. Again, go back to our last poll, look at this. He was in all-time-low-for-him territory last time around. Now up back over 40%, the highest Biden's job approval has been in our poll since last spring. So, again, these are encouraging signs for Joe Biden; although, broader picture here, this 42% approval rating, history says probably by itself not enough. He's probably going to need more because put this in some context here: these are other recent presidents. At this point in their reelection campaigns, where were their approval ratings? Again, you see Biden's 42%. One thing that jumps out: they were all higher than Joe Biden. The other thing, the two presidents on this list who did not win reelection of course: Donald Trump four years ago, he was at 46%; and back in 1992 George H.W. Bush, he was at 43%. Biden below both of those. The last time Biden's been at this level, 46%, you've got to back to the start of 2023. The last time he was higher than that, you've got to go back to the summer of 2021, his first year as president. So Biden has some work to do on that front. And also troubling for the Biden campaign, the erosion of public confidence on a number of critical fronts. We asked voters in this poll about a number of leadership characteristics here. "Which candidate would be better?" There are two, only two, where Biden has the edge over Trump. Abortion, we've talked about this one, seen this for a long time here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That’s a big one.
STEVE KORNACKI:
It is. Certainly, that's the biggest Biden advantage in this poll. And then bringing the country together, Biden you see performing better than Trump. But I think the headline here is you add those two numbers together, you're not even close to 100. That means a lot of voters think neither candidate is better on that. And then on every other front here, we talk about the erosion for Biden and now, you start to see it. Look at these numbers. Trump advantages on all of these traits.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I stop here because competent and effective, that was President Biden’s, the crux of his campaign pitch back in 2020.
STEVE KORNACKI:
And we actually polled this question in 2020, and it was basically the exact opposite. It was Biden with about a ten-point advantage over Trump and, again, same with handling of crisis. Biden had the edge over Trump. And how about this? It's the former president, the current president. We don't really see matchups like this. Well, now we can measure it. Who has the strongest record as president? And, again, Trump outpacing Biden on that front. And, again, you've got to mention this one, too. "Necessary mental and physical health." We asked this four years ago, it was a wash. It's now a clear liability for Joe Biden. So these are all troubling numbers for Biden, but it's not to say there aren't warning signs for Donald Trump in this poll either.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Trump and his campaign are hoping a third-party candidate might give them a little bit of a boost, but our poll shows it's a little bit murkier than that.
STEVE KORNACKI:
That's the thing, because, again, we show a 46-44 race here for Donald Trump. Again, all those liabilities for Biden, Trump only ahead two. What the Trump folks have been hoping is RFK, third-party candidates, they gobble up some votes and Trump doesn't need to get to 50%. But look what happens when we add RFK's name to the mix. Suddenly, we have a new leader. Joe Biden, 39%; Donald Trump, 37%. There's Kennedy getting 13%. In other words, we're seeing by a better than 2:1 margin, it's Trump voters who are flipping over to Kennedy in this scenario, not Biden voters. You see it right here. 15% of Trump voters, when we add RFK's name to the mix, they go to RFK. Only 7% of Biden voters. There's a big change right there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Defies conventional wisdom. There's no doubt about that.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Absolutely. I think we haven't seen this in other polls. And one final note, Kristen, as well, is the question of enthusiasm. And I thought this really jumped out here. The most engaged voters, those who voted in 2020, voted in the midterm elections, those folks are voting for Biden by nine points. Where Trump's strength is, why he leads Biden, it's voters who don't typically turn out in many elections. Didn't vote in '20, didn't vote in '22, they are with Trump by more than 20 points. And the warning sign for Trump in relying on this kind of voter is this: we are seeing the lowest level of –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
STEVE KORNACKI:
– interest since we started asking this question back in 2008. "Are you very interested in the election?" Sixty-four percent, that's lower than any other time at this point where we have polled this before. So, again, lower interest. Maybe those voters who in the polls are saying they're for Trump, are we sure they're going to actually vote in November? The Trump campaign better hope so.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We'll have to see if that ticks up if we get closer to Election Day. Steve Kornacki, thank you so much for being here.
STEVE KORNACKI:
You got it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We really appreciate it. When we come back, the jury will hear opening statements in Donald Trump's first criminal trial. What impact will it have on voters? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News chief Washington correspondent Andrea Mitchell; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher; and Matt Gorman, former senior communications advisor for Tim Scott for America. Andrea, I have to start with you. There's a lot to unpack. Let's start with President Zelenskyy. What were your key takeaways from our conversation?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That he's really worried about the surge – the Russian surge in what we expect to be May, June, July. This six months was critical. They had a really good chance of winning, before the six months of no aid from the U.S., the weapons that only the U.S. can provide. And after six months, they can lose. They can lose, if the weapons don't get there soon enough. So now it’s supply chain. He pointed out that the F-16s are still not there, and they were approved a year ago. And talking to Ukrainian officials, and you heard him today, they need the long-range weapons. They still don't have the ATACMS, those long-range missiles. They're supposedly in the package, the administration is deciding. Ukrainian officials say they've got to get them because the Russian launches, the artillery launches, not only do they have the ammo – they don't have the ammo, they don't have the manpower, Ukraine doesn't have any more – but Russia has that huge advantage, 10:1 in artillery, but they can't take that artillery out, because they don't have the long-range missiles. U.S. has been really worried about not letting them fire into Russian territory. The Ukrainians tell me they really want to, but they do have that restriction. They have restrictions that, frankly, are not placed on Israel. And they're watching Israel getting, you know -- despite all the controversy over Gaza, Israel has the support that Ukraine doesn't have. And I also think that it was really interesting that he ducked the two questions you asked about Donald Trump. He knows this is a close election. And the bottom line is he knows that Donald Trump has said that Ukraine can be forced at the negotiating table to give territory up to Russia. By next November, if Donald Trump is elected, I think it's all possible that Ukraine can still lose this war, despite their great spirit.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I'm so glad that you bring up two points: One, that he did choose his words very carefully on Donald Trump; and the factor of Israel, the fact that Ukraine is so concerned, Matt Gorman, that the world has forgotten about them as attention has turned to the Middle East, to what's happening in Gaza. And of course, House Speaker Mike Johnson really at the center of the battles for more aid for Ukraine and Israel. Both were approved yesterday, but there's so much opposition within his own party, three conservative Republicans threatening to oust him over this. But it seemed like the temperature was turned down a little bit, yesterday. What is your assessment? How in jeopardy is his job?
MATT GORMAN:
In the short term, not as much as I think people think. The real threat to Mike Johnson isn't now; it's November, it's post-election. Republicans are going to choose their leaders for the next Congress. They'll already have to choose a Senate leader. I think, until then, Democrats and Republicans will cobble together a majority on a motion to vacate, if it comes up. And I think Republicans want to hold on until then. Let's face it: also, too, no one really wants to be speaker right now, other than Mike Johnson. I thought it was notable that Steve Scalise and Tom Emmer voted with Johnson; notable who didn't, Elise Stefanik. If a successful move is going to be made, it's not until November.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Only member of the Republican leadership who did not vote for it. Cornell, let's talk about this poll: President Biden narrowing the gap with former President Trump, not a big surprise. But what stood out to you in the crosstabs?
CORNELL BELCHER:
What stands out to me is – well, first of all, great interview, by the way, groundbreaking interview. Spot on. What stood out to me is – surprise, surprise – polls are closing. And polls continue to shrink and get tighter and tighter because that's what happens in this country. And if you go back to our polling, go back to our polling back in October of last year, Donald Trump was at 46%. What is he, throughout all our NBC polling? He's at 46%. What is he at right now? At 46%. Donald Trump, what did he get in the last election? He got 46%. His support stays solid. Where I'm worried about or where I see you can see growth here is, I think Donald Trump is at his ceiling, and Biden is close to his floor. Where he's off most? He's off most among young voters. He is – and the other part about this is the enthusiasm, which I think is really the headline, is that if these young voters aren't enthusiastic and they don't show up and break for Biden big, that's how Trump wins.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Andrea, pick up on that point, because this is all going on against the backdrop of Donald Trump in court for his first criminal trial this week.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Yet, the fact is we don't know how that is going to play. Up until now, these legal cases have only helped him fundraising, made him, you know, tell people he's a victim, energized his base. And so he's risen in the polls with every indictment. Now, we're going to see him really powerless. The judge has been very effective. And how they handle the gag order is yet to be seen, while Joe Biden is campaigning. The problem for Joe Biden and the Democrats is it’s is crowding out – the trial is crowding out the trial, is crowding out everything else. So Joe Biden goes out and does major policy things, the steel tariffs in Pennsylvania, everything else that he's doing. Student loans is breaking through, a lit bit. But everything else is crowded out. And it's the Trump story. And that's what happened in 2016 to Hillary Clinton. And that could be replicated this year. I think it’s really – I think the enthusiasm issue and the young voter issue is critical. And as long as this war in Gaza goes on, this is going to be a problem with young voters because they have off ramp. That off ramp is RKF Jr. And I know your poll shows that RKF Jr. would hurt Trump more than Biden, hypothetically, and it's very early in polling, you know, to say who, but I know the White House is more afraid of –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is jittery, yeah.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
The family certainly is because it was very hard for those siblings to come out and do that. They only did it because they think he really hurts them, Joe Biden, more than Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Matt Gorman, what about all of that?
MATT GORMAN:
Yeah. Look, I was encouraged because when I was going into the trial, I was nervous that all the talk was going to be simply coming from Trump, his message was going to be about himself and the trial. I was surprised, going in the bodega, I thought it was smart, it leaned into issues like immigration, the migrant crisis, and crime that are winning issues, as we saw in the poll, for Republicans and Trump. He needs to continue to do that, get a message that's not just about himself, while he's sitting in the courtroom.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How does the courtroom optics play, Cornell?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Andrea, you're spot on about him – about him dominating the news, but it's negative news, right? This is different –
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That's a very good point.
CORNELL BELCHER:
And he doesn't look strong. He looks - he looks weak there. And so, to a certain extent, I don't –I don't mind if he's in court every day, dominating the news, because it's negative news.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. All right. Great conversation. We covered a lot of ground, but thank you.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Congratulations on a great interview.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you, Andrea. Thank you, all. When we come back, as the athletes prepare for the Summer Olympics in Paris, we look back on the U.S. decision to boycott the games after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. We have officially crossed the 100-day mark to the 2024 Olympics, as Paris prepares to host the competition, this summer. But the Olympics are not just about sports; they've also made history. The United States led an international boycott of the 1980 games in Moscow to protest the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. President Jimmy Carter announced his historic decision right here on Meet the Press.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JIMMY CARTER:
Neither I know the American people would support the sending of an American team to Moscow with Soviet invasion troops in Afghanistan. I'll send a message today to the United States Olympic Committee, spelling out my own position, that unless the Soviets withdraw their troops, within a month, from Afghanistan, that the Olympic games be moved from Moscow to an alternate site or multiple sites, or postponed, or canceled. If the Soviets do not withdraw their troops immediately from Afghanistan within a month, I will not support the sending of an American team to the Olympics.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you can watch the Paris Olympics this summer on NBC and streaming on Peacock. When we come back, presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin joins me for our Meet the Moment conversation with lessons from the past, as America's democracy is being tested once again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. As she likes to say, Doris Kearns Goodwin has spent most of her career writing about dead presidents, immersing herself in their papers, diaries and letters in an attempt to being them back to life. In a new book, "An Unfinished Love Story," the presidential historian turns that same attention to her marriage. Before his death, she opened more than 300 boxes of documents and memorabilia with her husband Richard Goodwin, who served as a speechwriter for President John F. Kennedy: a time capsule of their life in the 1960's. In her twenties, Doris was chosen to be a White House fellow for President Lyndon Johnson, one of only three women out of the 16 fellows selected, and developed a loyalty and closeness to President Johnson which has lasted her entire life. I sat down with Doris for a Meet the Moment conversation on her new book and the resilience of America, even in turbulent times.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have typically written presidential biographies. This is a biography to some extent of your husband, and it is also a love story. What was the process like of writing this book as compared to all of your other incredible works?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
Well, I was so used to writing about presidents who had archives, and I would want to talk to them. I knew them so well, because it took me so long to write those books, longer to write the book about World War II than the war to be fought, longer to write about the Civil War than twice the Civil War. And I would always ask them questions, and they never answered me. So this time, I had this guy, my guy, right across the hall from me in the same study, and I was able to talk to him. And he could answer my questions. And he had an archive – a mini archive of what presidents have – memos, diaries, letters. He just had saved everything in 300 boxes and finally decided when he turned 80 to open them. And what it really opened was a door to the 1960s, a decade that I'd lived in but I was able to learn through him starting at the beginning with John Kennedy, ending with Bobby Kennedy's death and the Democratic Convention.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You talk about the fact that after your husband passed, it was a struggle for you to finish this project that was a labor of love. You write, "I found myself edging toward a commitment to finish the project influenced by headlines announcing divisions between Black and white, old and young, rich and poor, divisions that made it increasingly evident that the momentous issues emanating from the '60s remain the unresolved stuff of our everyday lives."
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
Yeah, I think that's what really decided me. I knew if I were going to work on it, it was going to take years. My books take so long, so it was a huge commitment, and I was going to be writing as an historian, not simply as somebody writing about my husband. And so, once I realized that the '60s really had a message to the people today, and I believe that's so. Because we look at the '60s in a sad way because it ended with the riots, it ended with anti-war violence, it ended with Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy being killed. But when you start at the beginning, it was a decade in which young people in particular were powered by the conviction they could make a difference. And they joined the Peace Corps. The people who were in the Freedom Rides and the sit-ins, in the marches against segregation, marches for the vote. The beginning of the women's movement is there, the gay rights movement. It's a time when the air is filled with that belief that if you work together, you can change the government.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, when you look across the political spectrum, do you see leaders right now who are meeting this moment where so many people wonder if our democracy will stay intact?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
I mean, I don't know that we're fighting it the same way we need to be. This is one of the most perilous moments, and there are people obviously in local areas. There are people in states. There are some people in Washington. But the overall sense is, sometimes we've become too much of spectators watching what's happening to ourselves. And – and one of the things Dante said is that "The lowest place in Hell are for those people in a moral crisis who remain neutral or remain silent." We are in a moral crisis right now, and that’s what history – I always feel so – so positive about what history can teach us, because we've lived through really hard times before. And these are hard times, however, and it won't get better unless we act, unless we take seriously our citizen responsibilities and use the qualities of character that we need to bring into politics.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How afraid, how concerned are you that January 6th could happen again?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
Well, because we're not remembering it correctly. That – that – what history – I was so certain as an historian, and I was on television saying, "This is going to change public sentiment." Just as certain things happened in the '50s that made people understand in the '60s that slavery had to be ended, public sentiment finally got changed. I thought it had, but everything is so breaking news today, and one thing tops on another. I thought the summer after January 6th when the hearings took place, that would change public sentiment. But I still think in the end that the majority of the people understood what happened in that election. I think the majority of people are for the basic values that we're talking about right now for democracy. And it's just a matter of them speaking out and recognizing that it is in danger, and it's up to us. It's not up to somebody else, it's up to us to save it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the Republican nominee has yet to accept the results of the last election. Within the context of this conversation and your concerns about the nation's democracy, how much of a threat do you think the democracy is facing right now, and do you think the country can survive this threat?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
Well, I think the real threat is when the Republican – former President says that "if he doesn't win, he won't accept the results of this next election," which means that we may have a recurring battle for who's really – who’s really elected each time we do this. And that's a real problem. I mean, all the candidates, when you look at the ones who lost, it's really hard to lose, and every single one was able to say, as – as Carter did, "I promised I'd never tell you a lie. This hurts, it really hurts." Or Al Gore working on that concession speech that my husband was honored enough to help him on, where he talked about the fact, "The law of the land has said that this election is lost. I don't agree with it, but I must do it." And Hillary Clinton say, "We not only believe in the transition of power, we cherish it." I looked at all those, and it just makes you so proud of each one of those candidates who had been through an election. They'd lost it, they'd let down their constituents, and they were able to make that transfer of power. And it's an essential part of our democracy that has to happen this next November.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As we sit here today, how concerned are you that it may not happen?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
I am concerned that it may not happen, but I somehow think if the majority of the people come out who have different values from that and they vote, voting is absolutely essential. It's the premium value. As Lyndon Johnson said, "It's the – it’s the one thing that all the rest of our democracy depends on." And what is democracy? You throw a candidate out or you call him in. You either want him to come in, or you want to throw him out. We have to be able to do that. And I think, if the majority comes out to vote, and the majority never comes out in enough numbers to vote, not only young people. They've made a big difference in 2020, 2018, 2022, and they're saying now that they may not vote if they're not happy with either candidate. Again, if they only could know what we felt like in the '60s when we felt we were making a difference, you feel larger. You feel a sense of – of exhilaration, the word you used earlier. And I just hope they feel that this election could turn on them, and the uncommitted people and the undecided people have to come out and vote, and we have to just take the results of the election. That doesn't mean we know how it's going to happen, but if the overwhelming majority vote, then somehow maybe it won't be as close as we think it is going to be. And then we'll have a clear-cut choice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear so much optimism in your voice still.
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
Yes, I think I was born that way, and I think it's the only way we can live. I mean, it sometimes may sound naïve. I remember thinking what I was feeling when I was at the Civil Rights march, that we're going to change America. Maybe we didn't change America completely, but we made huge changes at that time. And if you have optimism, at least you have the confidence that if you act, something will happen. And it may take a long time, as – as Martin Luther King talked about, "the arc of the universe," all that stuff takes a long time, but it moves toward justice. And I do believe that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you, Doris Kearns Goodwin for this incredible conversation.
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN:
Thank you. I’m so glad to have been with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well that's all for today, thanks for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.