KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: FBI job. President-elect Donald Trump says he plans to replace FBI Director Christopher Wray with Kash Patel, a top loyalist who has vowed to shut down the bureau’s headquarters.
KASH PATEL:
I’d shut down the FBI Hoover building on day one and reopen it the next day as a museum of the deep state.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can he be confirmed by the Senate? Plus: trade war. President-elect Trump threatens steep tariffs on America’s biggest trading partners.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I hope he rethinks it. I think it’s a counterproductive thing to do.
PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU:
He would be actually not just harming Canadians. He’d actually be raising prices for American citizens as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How high could prices rise? Or is it just a negotiating tactic? I’ll talk to Republican Senator Bill Hagerty of Tennessee and Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Plus: turning point? Syria's second-largest city falls into rebel control, just days after Hezbollah agreed to a ceasefire with Israel. What does it mean for the war in Gaza? I’ll speak with National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. And: separated.
JALLYN SUALOG:
It was growing, growing, growing, growing with the number of kids.
CAPTAIN JONATHAN WHITE:
Harm to children was part of the point. They believed that it would terrify families into not coming.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Oscar winning filmmaker Errol Morris and NBC's Jacob Soboroff are here to talk about their new film examining the Trump administration’s family separation policies. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC’s Senior National Politics Reporter Jonathan Allen; Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for the Boston Globe; Republican Strategist Matt Gorman; and NBC Senior National Political Reporter Sahil Kapur. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. President-elect Trump proving once again he plans to shake up Washington in his second term, announcing plans to nominate Kash Patel as his next FBI director. Patel is a hard-line critic of the Bureau who has called for shutting down the agency’s Washington headquarters, firing its leaders and bringing the nation’s law enforcement agencies, quote, “to heel.”
[BEGIN TAPE]
STEVE BANNON:
Do you believe that you can deliver the goods on this in pretty short - in a pretty short order in first couple of months so we can get rolling on prosecutions?
KASH PATEL:
Yes, we got the bench for it, Bannon. The one thing we learned in the Trump administration the first go around is that we got to put in all-American patriots top to bottom.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The move to pick Patel means that Trump's own hand-picked FBI director Christopher Wray would need to be fired or resign, since his 10-year term doesn’t end until 2027. Meanwhile, the president-elect is threatening harsh tariffs against America's top three trading partners: Mexico, Canada and China. The tariffs may be an opening negotiating position as President-elect Trump looks for leverage to deal with issues of drugs and the border.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It's one of the most beautiful words in the whole world, it's going to make us wealthy again. The most beautiful word in the entire dictionary of words is the word tariff. I love tariffs. I can make anybody do anything through the use of tariffs.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau wasted no time traveling to Mar-A-Lago for a dinner on Friday with the president-elect to discuss the matter at Mr. Trump's resort. It comes after Trudeau warned tariffs would hurt consumers in both countries.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU:
Donald Trump, when he makes statements like that, he plans on carrying them out. He would be actually not just harming Canadians, who, who, who work so well with the United States, he'd actually be raising prices for American citizens as well, and hurting American industry and businesses.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, already, U.S. CEOs are warning if President-elect Trump does impose new tariffs, they will be passed on to consumers as higher prices. Best Buy's CEO saying, "the vast majority of that tariff will probably be passed on to the consumer.” Home Depot's CEO warning, “there certainly will be an impact,” and Walmart's finance chief saying, “tariffs are going to be inflationary." President Biden also weighing in.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I hope he rethinks it. I think it's a counterproductive thing to do. We're surrounded by the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, and two allies, Mexico and Canada, and the last thing we need to do is begin to screw up those relationships.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Tuesday, President Biden announced a ceasefire deal in Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed militia the U.S. designates as a terror group. Mr. Biden saying he will renew his push for a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Just as the Lebanese people deserve a future of security and prosperity, so do the people of Gaza. They too deserve an end to the fighting and displacement. So now Hamas has a choice to make. Their only way out is to release the hostages, including American citizens, which they hold.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Saturday, Hamas released a video showing American Edan Alexander, who was taken captive on October 7th.
[BEGIN TAPE]
YAEL ALEXANDER:
This video is like, it's screaming to everyone, "Look at me. I'm alive. I'm surviving for 421 days. Please bring me home. I want to come back to my family."
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. Jake, welcome back to Meet the Press.
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. I want to start with Hamas releasing that video of American hostage Edan Alexander, who has been held by Hamas now for more than 400 days, Jake. Is the United States any closer to bringing the hostages home or striking a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, Kristen, that video was a cruel reminder of Hamas' brutality and of the fact that they are holding so many hostages from so many countries, including American citizens, including Americans like Edan. And we are doing everything we can to get those hostages home safely to their families. We were in touch with Edan's family yesterday. I'll be speaking with all of the American hostage families this week. President Biden pledged coming off of the announcement of the Lebanon ceasefire that we would be working round the clock to produce a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza. We are working to do that. I can't make you any predictions about the shape of that deal or when it will come. But I can tell you that we are working actively to try to make it happen. We are engaged deeply with the key players in the region, and there is activity. Even today, there will be further conversations and consultations. And our hope is that we can generate a ceasefire and hostage deal, but we're not there yet.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well Jake, let's talk about what you just mentioned. The ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hezbollah, both sides have already been accusing each other of violating the terms of the agreement. The last time the Lebanese Army was tasked with enforcing a ceasefire in 2006, it failed, Jake. Why are you confident that it can succeed this time?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, first this is a huge step forward in the Middle East. A ceasefire across the border between Israel and Lebanon, the end to more than a year of very significant violence on both sides of that border. The opportunity for people to ultimately be able to return to their homes in Israel and in Lebanon. So this is a good thing, and we need to protect it, and ensure that it is fully implemented. And what makes this time different is the United States, France, and other allies are going to work together with the Lebanese armed forces through a mechanism to ensure that the ceasefire is implemented effectively. Now, that's not going to involve U.S. forces deployed on the ground in southern Lebanon. But it will mean that we will put our full backing behind this. And also, as the agreement itself states, Kristen, both parties including Israel have the right, consistent with international law, to take action in self-defense if they're facing imminent threats. We have seen some of that. Our goal is to get through these first few days, critical days of a ceasefire, when it's most fragile, have it take full hold, and then ultimately build on it so that it becomes the permanent ceasefire it's intended to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you about something that the incoming National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, had to say. He credited President-elect Trump with this ceasefire, Jake, saying, quote, "Everyone is coming to the table because of President Trump." Jake, how do you respond to that?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, first I would just say that we've had good consultations with the incoming team. We've been transparent with them. We are committed to ensuring a smooth transition. Second, I'm glad to see the incoming team is welcoming the ceasefire. And finally, Kristen, I would just say that you know you've done a good thing when other people take credit for it. We're proud of the work we've done on bringing this ceasefire about. And it came about because of the relentless diplomacy directed by the current President of the United States, Joe Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what's happening in Syria. Rebels have seized control of most of the second-largest city of Aleppo. What is your sense of what's happening on the ground, and do you think that Bashar al-Assad could fall?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, keep in mind that for many years the Syrian government has been engaged in this civil war, backed by three main players: Iran, Russia and Hezbollah. All three of those players have been distracted and weakened by conflicts elsewhere. So it's no surprise that you see actors in Syria, including the rebels, try to take advantage of that. And that's exactly what they've done over the last several days. Now, this rebel offensive is led by a group that the United States has designated as a terrorist entity. So we have concerns, obviously, about that group. And we are consulting closely with players across the region to try to determine the best way forward. Because what we would like to see is the full implementation of UN Security Council resolutions that could bring a measure of peace and stability to Syria and protection to civilians, including religious minorities. As far as the fate of Bashar al-Assad, people have been predicting that for a long time. I'm not going to make any predictions here. All I'm going to say is that we will stay deeply engaged in the days ahead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, let me ask you about the breaking news overnight. President-elect Trump announcing he wants to nominate Kash Patel for FBI director. The FBI obviously plays a major role in counterterrorism operations. What do you make of this pick?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Look, I'm not going to speak about the president-elect's nominees. The only thing that I can point out, Kristen, is that we, the Biden administration, adhere to the longstanding norm that FBI directors serve out their full terms, because the FBI director is a unique player in the American government system. They're appointed for ten-year terms, not terms just for the duration of a given president. The current FBI director, Chris Wray, was actually appointed by Donald Trump. Joe Biden didn't fire him. He relied upon him to execute his responsibilities as the director of the FBI and allowed him to serve out the fullness of his term over the course of the Biden administration. So that's how we approach things, and we would like to ensure that the FBI remains an independent institution, insulated from politics.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We really appreciate it.
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:And joining me now is Republican Senator Bill Hagerty of Tennessee. Senator Hagerty, welcome to Meet The Press.
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
Good morning. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is very good to have you. Let's start right there. I want to get your reaction. President-elect Trump essentially making this move that would lead to the firing of his own hand-picked FBI director whose term doesn't come to an end until 2027, replacing him with Kash Patel, of course who served multiple different roles in the first Trump administration. How will you vote on his nomination, and do you think he has enough votes to pass?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
I've encouraged Trump to bring Kash Patel to the table for precisely this reason. Unlike Jake, I understand his resistance to talk about Kash, but I'm more than happy to talk about him. He represents the type of change that we need to see in the FBI. If you think about the failures of background checks that have taken place. How can we have somebody like Colin Kahl, who tweeted out classified information. I went to the FBI myself. They ignored me. Basically, he was confirmed on a party line vote in the U.S. Senate with Kamala Harris breaking the tie to put this person that should not even have a security clearance in the third-most powerful position at DOD. You've got Rob Malley. I don't know how he cleared an FBI check. He's now under investigation. His ties to the Iranian influence regime that worked with him and for him. Ariane Tabatabai, who is still at the DOD, should never have cleared an FBI background check. This entire agency needs to be cleaned out. It's not doing its job. And if you look at what happened, the politicization that took place back in 2016, when senior leaders of the FBI collaborated and conspired to try to keep President Trump out of office and then when he came into office they put together this fake Russia-gate investigation that hindered the Trump administration for several years. Look at 2020. Look at what happened there with the, you know, fake Hunter Biden story that the FBI leadership worked together with big tech to censor the Hunter Biden laptop that allowed President Biden to basically fool the American public and come into office. There are serious problems at the FBI. The American public knows it. They expect to see sweeping change, and Kash Patel's just the type of person to do it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. So I hear you saying you are a yes and yet a lot of folks –
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– have raised questions about whether Patel is qualified. President-elect Trump floated the idea of Patel as his deputy FBI director at the end of his first term. His attorney general at the time, Bill Barr, rejected the idea, later writing, this is in his memoir, quote, "Patel had virtually no experience that would qualify him to serve at the highest level of the world's preeminent law enforcement agency." Senator, how seriously do you take Barr's warnings?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
Listen, I think you should have the Biden administration look at itself. What is the qualification of Tony Blinken to become secretary of state? Well, he organized 51 so-called intelligence experts to put together a fake letter saying that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. That must have qualified him to be secretary of state. President Trump is entitled to name his appointees. That is exactly what he's doing, and I'm going to support this appointment. Kash has worked at national security. He's worked at the Department of Justice, and he's somebody that has been willing to uncover the wrongs at the FBI. He's the one that uncovered for the American public what happened with Russia-gate. He's the one that can see through the fix here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, senator, you are disregarding what Bill Barr, the former attorney general under Donald Trump, is saying, his warnings that he just doesn't have the experience?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
I'm saying there are people that are serving in the current administration that are woefully inexperienced. I think Kash does have relevant experience, particularly when it comes to the mandate the American public has assigned of turning these agencies around that have become completely corrupted. Kash has pointed it out. He's probably the best at uncovering what's happened at the FBI, and I look forward to seeing him taking it apart.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, let's talk about one of the other big headlines this week: tariffs. President-elect Trump announcing he would impose 25% tariffs against Mexico and Canada, more tariffs against China, the United States three biggest trading partners. Major companies from Best Buy to Home Depot and Walmart all warning that tariffs could lead to higher prices. So, senator, I wonder are you comfortable with these tariffs even if it does, in fact, lead to higher prices?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
Well, Kristen, I think one of the most important things that we have as a nation is our economy. That's the most important, most incredible source of competitive advantage that the United States has. Access to our economy is a privilege. If you think about it, we've made access to this economy a strategic tool ever since World War II. If you think about what happened in Japan and countries in Europe, when those economies were decimated, the United States put in place very favorable terms of trade to get those countries to rebuild their economies, to trade with us rather than trading with Communist countries. We have used these tools effectively decade after decade after decade. Right now, the United States has the most open market of any major economy in the world. We need to take a very hard look at countries that don't have our best interests at heart. Countries that are allowing our borders to be violated, and use those tariffs as a tool to achieve our ends.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But are you concerned this could lead to a trade war, senator?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
What it needs to lead to is a correction of the behavior that's taking place right now that is letting fentanyl flood into our border, that is allowing people to flood into our country, millions of people, undocumented, illegal people breaking into our country. It needs to stop. And President Trump is going to use every lever at his disposal to do it, and I think it's absolutely appropriate to use tariffs as one of those tools. It's a major tool.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You just heard me talking with Jake Sullivan about the situation that is unfolding in Aleppo, and the focus, the question, could Bashar al-Assad actually fall in this moment. How do you see what's unfolding in Syria? Do you see this as a turning point?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
I think what we've seen is a major turning point, particularly with respect to Israel's moves against Hezbollah. Again, Israel took these moves against the warnings of the Biden administration. The Biden administration did not want them to take the aggressive steps that they took in Lebanon to deal with Hezbollah. But what we've seen is Hezbollah is basically being decimated. And in the aftermath of that you've seen Hezbollah's inability to continue to shore up Assad. That's led to this change that now, as I understand it, Aleppo has now fallen. We may see Assad, you know, on – on the mat very, very soon. I think the situation has completely changed. But it's changed because of the leadership of Israel and their willingness to stand up to Hezbollah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask it this way. President-elect Trump's pick for director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, had two secret meetings with Bashar al-Assad. In light of these latest developments in Syria, senator, do those meetings concern you at all, and do you plan to vote to confirm her?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
I'm not familiar with the meetings that she's had, and I certainly don't have to agree with every point of every one of President Trump's nominees. But I am here to support them, and I'm here to support the type of dramatic change that's underway. I think what Tulsi represents is a broad tent that President Trump has put in place bringing together Democrats, bringing together people with different voices. But what he's doing is he's reaching out and broadening the party and broadening our reach. He's bringing Tulsi into his cabinet to achieve a specific purpose, and I look forward to supporting that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, senator, do you have – you're saying you're not familiar with those meetings because they were secret meetings. Do you have questions about those meetings that you want answered before you vote yes?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
My only understanding about the meetings is they took place sometime in the past. I am –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do they concern you –
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
– certain –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– senator –
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
– that all of this will come out –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do they concern you at all?
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
I can be concerned about it. I can understand it. I may even disagree with it. But it doesn't mean that I have to vote against or for a given candidate. But I plan to support President Trump's candidates because the American public needs to see dramatic change, and she's the type of candidate that will do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Hagerty, thank you so much for being here. We –
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– really appreciate it.
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
It's good to be with you this morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Great to –
SEN. BILL HAGERTY:
Thank you so much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– have you this morning. And when we come back, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah. Great to be here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here in person. We really appreciate it.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to start off by talking to you, getting your reaction about President-elect Trump's decision to tap Kash Patel to lead the FBI. You just heard my conversation with Senator Hagerty. Do you know how you plan to vote on Patel's confirmation?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Oh, I will vote no. And I will organize not just my colleagues, but the American public to understand what's happening here. Donald Trump told the American public during the campaign that he was going to turn the Department of Justice into a political operation, an arm of the White House, to destroy his political opponents, right? He said that the greatest threat to America is the enemy within. And who he said was the enemy within was us, was journalists, who were his political opponents. Kash Patel's only qualification is because he agrees with Donald Trump that the Department of Justice should serve to punish, lock up, and intimidate Donald Trump's political opponents. And so the cost to the American public is pretty simple. The Department of Justice and the FBI is supposed to be there to go after drug traffickers, gun smugglers, to go after corrupt Wall Street financiers. Instead, the Department of Justice is going to serve Donald Trump's political interests. That's what Kash Patel has said he thinks the Department of Justice and the FBI should do, and that's why Republicans and Democrats should be examining how damaging this nomination could be to American democracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me zoom out and ask you more broadly about these nominees. Last weekend, Senator-elect Adam Schiff told me that Senator Marco Rubio was, quote, "enormously well qualified" to serve as secretary of state and that he was strongly inclined toward a yes vote on his confirmation. Can you see yourself supporting your fellow senator, Marcio Rubio, and any other picks of Donald Trump?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, listen, I’ll evaluate each nominee on their own merits. You know, I thought it was kind of extraordinary that Senator Hagerty basically told you he was not going to ask a single question about any of these nominees. He is going to give Donald Trump carte blanche. That's an abdication of the Senate's responsibility. What worries me about this Cabinet is that it is essentially putting the billionaire class in charge of American government. The net worth of Donald Trump's nominees is greater than 169 countries. The folks that are being nominated to run the Department of Commerce, Treasury, Education, they don't understand what regular people are going through. All they see government as good for is enriching themselves and their billionaire friends. And so that is what the story of this Cabinet is, is Donald Trump and the billionaire class taking over government to enrich themselves and screw everybody else in this country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let me take a little bit of a turn. I want to ask you about what happened on Thanksgiving. You and the rest of the Connecticut delegation quite frankly received bomb threats at your homes. Now, fortunately, they were investigated. There were no actual bombs. But they did echo threats that have been made to some of the picks that President-elect Trump has made for his Cabinet. On a human level, Senator, what was your reaction to learning that? And what have you learned about who might be behind these threats?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, as you know there were threats – very similar threats made the day before Trump's Cabinet nominees that appeared on Thanksgiving morning. It was Democrats that were targeted. My sense is that this is some outside actor just trying to create confusion and distraction inside the American political system. And listen, I want a Department of Justice. I want an FBI director who's going to go after anybody that tries to threaten the American political system, that goes after Republicans or Democrats. One of the things that I'm concerned about is that Kash Patel is going to only care about protecting Republicans and not care about protecting every single member of the American population, every single one of us who occasionally gets met with these kind of threats.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me turn to tariffs now. I want to get your reaction to that big headline of this week, President-elect Trump threatening to impose tariffs against Canada, Mexico, China. We should note that President Biden has actually kept some of the Trump tariffs in place and built on them, has imposed new tariffs as well. Do you think that tariffs are good policy?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, what we know is that Donald Trump has no idea how to use tariffs in order to create American jobs. He did impose tariffs during his four years in office. And we lost manufacturing jobs. Joe Biden knew how to use tariffs in coordination with subsidies and incentives for domestic manufacturing such that while he was president we grew manufacturing jobs. The headline here is that Donald Trump's entire economic policy is going to be about a massive tax break for those billionaires that are in charge of his Cabinet. The tariffs are a distraction from what the real agenda is going to be, to be able to use government in order to dramatically increase the wealth of his Cabinet and the friends of that Cabinet. Those tariffs, if they're not used properly, are just going to raise costs on ordinary Americans while the billionaires get off scot-free.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and that takes me to my next question which is that economists of all stripes say that tariffs regardless of how they're imposed do ultimately hike up prices for consumers. So, if they're so bad, why didn't President Biden roll back the Trump-era tariffs?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Because President Biden did this the right way. He imposed restrictions, for instance, on electric vehicles coming into the United States and the technology connected to electric vehicles while also giving subsidies to American electric vehicle companies. That's the kind of coordinated policy that ends up in hundreds of thousands of new manufacturing jobs being created in the United States. Donald Trump engages in sort of thoughtless insane tariff policy that ends up in prices going up, but jobs not being created in the United States. So, you've got to use tariffs in the right way. And if you use them the right way, it can create jobs. But Donald Trump is going to talk about tariffs because he doesn't want you to know about the primary centerpiece of his economic agenda, which is a tax cut for billionaires and millionaires and corporations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Last week, Senator, you put out a memo about the 2024 election. You had some strong language talking about what you believe went wrong. You said the party needs to embrace a more populist message. What do you think Democrats need to do differently in order to win, in order to to be in a fighting position in 2028 and also the midterms?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, well, listen, I think we have to talk about power, who has it and who doesn't have it. I think some of the most important things that Joe Biden did were taking on the big corporations, going after their monopoly power, helping consumers with some of the really egregious fees and gimmicks that those companies use to hurt us. I wish the Biden campaign and the Biden White House and the Harris campaign talked more about what they did to break up corporate power. So, I think Democrats need to be much more aggressive in making this case that power has been concentrated and it needs to be returned to regular Americans, and that we need to be able to invite a lot of different Americans into that conversation regardless of whether they line up with Democrats on every single social and cultural issue. Let's build a bigger tent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very quickly, Nancy Pelosi says that President Biden stayed in this race too long. He should have gotten out sooner. Do you agree with that assessment, just very quickly?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, it was a – in hindsight, knowing that he ultimately made a decision to stand down, yes, of course, it would have been better for President Biden to have made that decision earlier. I think there's no question about it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Senator Murphy, thank you so much for being here. Great to see you.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it. And when we come back, President-elect Trump wants to force out the current FBI director and replace him with a top loyalist. Can he be confirmed? The panel is next. Stay with us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Senior National Political Reporter Jonathan Allen; NBC News Senior National Political Reporter Sahil Kapur; Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for the Boston Globe; and Matt Gorman, former Senior Communications Advisor for Tim Scott for America. Thanks to all of you for being here. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving holiday. Jon, let me start with you. Let's talk about this decision by President-elect Trump to tap Kash Patel to lead the FBI. I heard from the former National Security Advisor, John Bolton, overnight, who said that the Senate should vote to oppose him 100-0. Bill Hagerty made it very clear that's not going to happen. What do you think his chances are of getting confirmed?
JONATHAN ALLEN:
And not for the first time John Bolton's wrong about his political assessment. We already heard Chris Murphy say that he's going to vote against Kash Patel –
KRISTEN WELKER:
There you go.
JONATHAN ALLEN:
– so we know it's not going to be 100 to nothing. Look, I – I think there are some issues with Kash Patel. I think, if you're a senator, you're going to weigh this question of whether he's going in there to the FBI with the expressed intent of going after President Trump's political enemies. And the reason that that matters on the Republican side is Donald Trump doesn't care whether his political enemies are Democrats or Republicans. So, if you're a United States senator and you have anything to hide, for sure, you're going to be worried about Kash Patel. Maybe, even if you don't have anything to hide, you're going to be worried about it. Could he get through? Absolutely. But I am not of the opinion that one nominee gets knocked down and that doesn't mean that others won't.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you take me to my next question. Sahil, I mean, Republican senators did stand up in the face of Matt Gaetz and basically say, "This is a bridge too far. There are too many ethical questions swirling around him." Do you think that senators who have concerns about confirming him will stand up to Trump a second time? How do you see it play out?
SAHIL KAPUR:
I think it's unclear, right now, Kristen, whether he has the votes. I think the math is certainly clear. Republicans have 53 senators. They can afford to lose three. That's the number of defections that they can afford, in terms of this nomination. But Republicans will certainly have questions. The first is, as Jake Sullivan pointed out to you, why are you firing Chris Wray?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
SAHIL KAPUR:
Trump appointed him. He has three years on his term. What's the reason for that? The second dynamic to watch is, Kash Patel is on the record for the retribution agenda that Donald Trump ran on. You know, he's talked about using government power against, you know, Trump's perceived enemies inside and outside of government. There was real tension between Trump and Republicans during the 2024 campaign when Trump ran on this and Republicans were like, "No. He doesn't really believe it. Don't take him too literally. He just wants to lower the price of eggs." Now, they get to cast their votes, accordingly. Now, your point about Gaetz, there's an important lesson there, which is that Republicans scuttled Matt Gaetz for AG, and Trump accepted it. He just moved on. He's not angrily tweeting at them. He's not trying to get back at them. Is there a lesson there that they can say "no" to Trump sometimes and the sun still comes up in the morning?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Matt, is there, or – or do you think they're going to say, "Hey. Wait a minute. We – we had our one pick that we could say no to. And that's where we draw the line?”
MATT GORMAN:
Well, Gaetz was the heat shield. But now, there's strength in numbers, right? You have several nominees, whether it's Tulsi, or RFK, or Hegseth, and now Kash Patel, who are splitting the media attention, splitting the scrutiny and kind of the – the left wing, kind of dark money, you always kind of fight a nominee or two, Betsy Devos in 2017, to target. But, look, I – I think, maybe, all of them can outrun the lion. Maybe, the lion gets one. But the idea that Senate Republicans are going to tank a third of the Trump's cabinet just is not going to happen. It's not realistic.
JONATHAN ALLEN:
Can I just jump in, real quick?
MATT GORMAN:
Yeah.
JONATHAN ALLEN:
It's not just the left wing here. Matt Gaetz didn't become DOJ – head of DOJ – didn’t become attorney general because Republicans wanted to tank him. And I think there are going to be issues with Republicans, whether you're talking about Pete Hegseth, whether you're talking about Tulsi Gabbard, even about RFK, Jr., although my personal view is that he’s more likely to go through.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
A difference here is Kash Patel is a general in Trump's perceived war against the deep state, deep state meaning anybody who he sees as a political enemy. He is somebody who has been inside Trump-world for a lot longer and a lot closer than Matt Gaetz. And I see no reason to believe that the Republicans who failed to stand up against Trump at any point in the last ten years will suddenly change their tune to try to block his top guy. As – as much as Democrats will point out, that him heading the FBI, particularly one which, in the eyes of the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025, would be under the White House. They would take it from under DOJ control and make it Donald Trump's personal investigatory army. I think that, not only will he win confirmation but that it’s one of the most dangerous appointments that Donald Trump can make.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about one of the other big headlines this week, Matt, of course, tariffs. The fact that President-elect Trump has used this threat against Canada, Mexico, and China, the U.S.' three biggest trading partners, do you think it's a bluff or you think he's really going to follow through?
MATT GORMAN:
I think this is a setting of negotiation, where Trump feels eminently comfortable on the economy and immigration. These are policies he won on and rightly so. He should feel empowered to act on that. But also, the setting, he feels at home at a negotiating table. So he wants to get people in a room, get them face-to-face, and eventually work on a deal. What was telling to me, was how Trudeau and Claudia Sheinbaum both varied in their approach to it. Trudeau went to Mar-a-Lago, went face to face. Sheinbaum, I think, boxed herself in with this chest-beating letter. That's not going to help her get a deal. And, especially when you have House Democrats amplifying it, it was not helpful to either Democrats or Sheinbaum.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jon, how do you see the tariff battle playing out? And of course, Biden, again, kept the Trump-era tariffs in place.
JONATHAN ALLEN:
Yeah. I mean, I think, mostly, Donald Trump is trying to announce his presence with authority here and make foreign leaders look at him and make the domestic audience look at him. And, if he can get concessions without actually having to put tariffs in place, then all the better for him. So I -- you know, look, I think Matt's right about the strategy here. And he's going to get some concessions before he has to put tariffs in place. He doesn't want to have to put tariffs in place because, if he puts tariffs in place, prices are going to go up –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
JONATHAN ALLEN:
– and it's going to fight this idea that he's combating inflation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Sahil, let's talk about President Biden's legacy. You have some new reporting on what are some of the pieces of President Biden's legacy that could be most at risk in the second Trump administration?
SAHIL KAPUR:
Yeah. Absolutely. So I would rank this from least safe to most safe items of President Biden's legacy. The least safe are the executive actions. All these things that President Biden did with the stroke of a pen, Trump can undo with a stroke of a pen, immediately. So, whether it's things like immigration, LGBT rights, student loan programs, even abortion travel protections, I think those will be very unsafe. Trump can undo them. The second category of things that are in real danger are the Democrat-only programs that they passed through Congress with 50 votes, without any Republican support: the Inflation Reduction Act, Clean Energy Funding, we have a new piece this morning about Republicans, they are coming after those to pay for an extension of the Trump tax cuts, ACA funding, as well. The subsidy pass-up to lower premiums, those are in danger. The other – the pieces of Biden's legacy that, I think, are quite safe are the bipartisan laws he passed: infrastructure, CHIPS and science, postal reform, codifying same-sex marriage. Those are subject to the 60-vote threshold. Democrats can protect them. And finally, the safest part of Biden's legacy, probably the most consequential, judges: Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson and 220 federal appeals court and district court judges. They're here to stay.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
But all we have to do is reverse that to see where Donald Trump can make his most biggest impact. Judiciary was a huge win for him, particularly at the U.S. Supreme Court. With any – Trump can only force that even further to the right, giving it an even greater super majority during his presidency, as well as throughout the federal judiciary. We've seen with consequence from all of the challenges to Biden's programming, what the Trump-appointed judges, what power they can wield. We will see only more of that, during his administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I'm glad you bring up the judges because, obviously, that's still very much in focus and will be, over the next four years. Guys, great conversation. We packed a lot in. Thank you for being here. When we come back, as President Biden makes a final push for a ceasefire agreement in Gaza, we look backwards 30 years, to the historic Mid-east Peace Agreement. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. While efforts to broker peace in the Middle East are in the spotlight once again, they have long been a focus for the White House. Back in 1993, just one day before signing the historic Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin joined Meet The Press to share his vision for peace in the region.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRIME MINISTER YITZHAK RABIN:
Allow me to say that once the Jewish people, the Zionist movement, have decided to have the Jewish state here in the land of Israel, we decided who will be our neighbors at the same time, the hundred of millions of Arabs and Muslims. And there are only two ways to live here as a Jewish state: either in peace or in continuation of threats of war – wars, violence, and terror. Most of my life I served as a military man, as a minister of defense, as a prime minister. I would like to bring about the change. I would like to give it a chance. I believe that the risks involved to Israel in this agreement is the minimum.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, thousands of children were separated from their parents as part of the first Trump administration's immigration policy. Errol Morris and Jacob Soboroff join me next to talk about their new film.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President-elect Donald Trump has promised to launch a mass deportation program on his first day in office. A new film, Separated, from Oscar-winning filmmaker Errol Morris, based on the book “Separated: Inside an American Tragedy” by NBC News political and national correspondent Jacob Soboroff, examines the first Trump administration's family separation and immigration policies and the ongoing years-long fight to reunite children.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JONATHAN WHITE:
The unaccompanied children program, which I worked in, was essentially hijacked for a purpose for which it was never intended nor authorized in law. It was a program designed to be a child protection program for children who enter the United States without parents. And it was instead used as a tool to take children from their parents.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Jacob Soboroff and Errol Morris join me now. Welcome to Meet The Press.
JACOB SOBOROFF:
Thanks, Kristen.
ERROL MORRIS:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you both for being here. Errol, I want to start with you. You are an Oscar Award-winning filmmaker. Why did you want to take on this project?
ERROL MORRIS:
It's a very important issue and perhaps at the essence of our current politics. It involves immigration, the treatment of immigrants, both outside our country and within. I couldn't think of a more important issue to make a movie about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jacob, you have done so much reporting about this issue. What made you want to take that reporting and turn it into a book and now this documentary?
JACOB SOBOROFF:
I think, Kristen, when, you know, we all covered this together at the time in the summer of 2018, what a Republican-appointed judge called one of the most shameful chapters in the history of our country, what Physicians for Human Rights said met the U.N. definition of torture, and the American Academy of Pediatrics called government-sanctioned child abuse. When we covered it, I don't think any of us, or at least many of us, understood how the U.S. government could do something so deliberately cruel, in the words of Adam Serwer, who coined that, "The cruelty is the point," for The Atlantic. And so, I still had questions, and I wrote the book. The legend, Errol Morris, my favorite filmmaker, one of the great filmmakers of all time, read the book and said he shared some of those questions. And now here we are four years later to the day. We didn't know President Trump would run for re-election again, much less become the president-elect of the United States. And now we're on the verge of another family separation policy, mass deportation, which is just family separation by another name.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Errol, pick up on that very point if you would because of course then-President Trump in his first term did end the family separation policy that he started, but officials not ruling it out potentially in this second term, despite the fact that a judge has ruled against it. How do you see this playing out over the next four years?
ERROL MORRIS:
My movie ends with a warning that there is nothing to prevent this from happening again, despite the horrors that we are aware of from its first go-round. Yes, the people who instituted these policies are now firmly in place in the new administration. And, yes, in one form or another, it could happen again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jacob, one of the statistics that you report on that I think would surprise a lot of people, there are still more than 1,000 children who haven't been reunited with their families. Can you update us? What is the latest on the efforts to try to get those kids reunited?
JACOB SOBOROFF:
Kristen, actually the number today is somewhere between 1,300 and 1,400 children without confirmed reunifications. That's according to the Department of Homeland Security. And that is because the policy was, and I think this is a generous description, so haphazardly implemented. I will never forget when you asked former President Trump – President-elect Trump and President Biden during that last presidential debate in 2020 about 545 children who were still separated from their parents. That number has only grown since then as we have discovered sort of the extent that this policy tore families apart from one another deliberately. And I think that not only are we looking back at this policy and the ramifications of it, it will be a lifelong trauma for all of them, but also what it means going forward. It's also a road map, in essence, for what the incoming Trump administration has promised.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Errol, what did – Based on your work on this film, what did you perceive the impact to be on these kids?
ERROL MORRIS:
I hope it was not just an impact on these kids but on the country as a whole that beating up on immigrants, policies of cruelty, are a moral thing not a political thing. What we did to these children, to me, is morally unacceptable. And fortunately it was unacceptable to a lot of people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jacob –
ERROL MORRIS:
You know, we've heard a lot about the deep state, the horrors of the deep state, but many of the heroes of this story were people who were non-political appointees who worked in the government and who fought very hard to protect children. And that is really part of the story.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jacob, you have spent so much time studying this topic that I wonder if in working on this film – What surprised you? What did you learn that was new that you weren't expecting to uncover?
JACOB SOBOROFF:
Kristen, I hope, you know, when everybody watches it, and I'm excited that everybody will have the opportunity to watch it this coming weekend on MSNBC, I thought back to that time in a way that I hadn't remembered. Errol just mentioned it, that this was one of the rare policy reversals, maybe the only significant major one of the first Trump administration, because of career officials like Jonathan White, who you played a clip of, a career official from the Office of Refugee Resettlement. And because these folks stood up inside the government and pushed back on something that wasn't a bipartisan condemnation, it was really a universal condemnation – the Pope spoke out, if you'll remember, about this policy. It forced the government to make corrective action on something I think so many people thought was morally unacceptable. And it's a good reminder for us today, as – by the way, this is a policy that was possible only because of decades of bipartisan deterrence-based immigration policy. This is not just a story about Donald Trump. This is a story about the U.S. government, the immigration system within it, and people who stood up and were able to make a change here and it's a great reminder.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's such a great point, Jacob. And, Errol, if you would follow up on that, the immigration system has been broken for so long. Did you get to the root of why it's just so intractable for this country to resolve this issue?
ERROL MORRIS:
People would rather argue about it politically rather than try to solve the problem, which is the sad story of many significant issues facing the country. The way to solve immigration is not to beat up on children. Perhaps that should be obvious. But we should remember that we are a country of immigrants. I wouldn't be here if my family hadn't immigrated from Eastern Europe in the '20s. We're all, in many ways, immigrants. And how we treat those people who are trying to enter our country for a better life really reflects on us. I'm not saying there shouldn't be borders or there shouldn't be immigration laws. But there should also be morality and kindness involved.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Jacob and Errol, thank you so much for this conversation. We really do appreciate it. And you can watch Separated next Saturday night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on MSBNC. And before we go, the newest member of the Meet the Press family, Frankie Alice Katz was born at 12:23 a.m. on Wednesday. She didn't want to miss her first Thanksgiving, as her mom told us. We want to say a huge heartfelt congratulations to both of her parents, coordinating producer Sally Bronston Katz and her husband Michael. Frankie Alice was named after two amazing women, their grandmothers, Fredalee and Adrien. Welcome to the world, Frankie Alice. You are the best breaking news ever. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.