Over the last year, the Washington Post has often been at the center of the news itself. The storied publication contended with controversial new leadership and an 11th-hour spiked political endorsement that sparked a wave of subscriber cancellations. Amid questions over Jeff Bezos’s continued interest in owning the paper, Axios reported in December that Pivot co-host Kara Swisher was looking to form a group to buy it. In the most recent episode of the podcast, Swisher and Scott Galloway discuss her potential bid.
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Kara Swisher: A cartoonist at the Washington Post has quit after a cartoon depicting billionaires, including Jeff Bezos, kneeling before President-elect Donald Trump was blocked from publication. Ann Telnaes — I think that’s how you pronounce it — published a sketch of the cartoon on Substack, saying it was the first time a work had been rejected because of who it depicted. She’s a Pulitzer Prize winner, by the way. Amazing cartoonist. The Washington Post editorial page editor, David Shipley, said the cartoon was rejected because of its similarity to columns of the paper rather than his subject, although he managed to publish many similar columns over and over again. It’s nonsense, his excuse.
In related news, Amazon has announced that it will release a behind-the-scenes documentary on Melania Trump by Brett Ratner who was sucked up into the Me Too stuff. He seems to be a really problematic person and the New York Times did some really astonishing coverage on his behavior. So, that was nice. What do you think, Scott? You want to buy the Washington Post with me?
Scott Galloway: This is such peacocking. First off, if I’m going to spend a lot of money to be put in pain, he or she better be wearing leather and be hot. What are you doing? Anyway, no, I’m not crazy. That is literally—
Swisher: Go ahead.
Galloway: I think I told you. One, I had an experience …
Swisher: I’m waiting to hear your feedback, but go ahead.
Galloway: Back in the heyday of hedge funds, I convinced a hedge-fund manager to give me $600 million to become the largest shareholder in the New York Times. And I learned a decent amount about the collision between shareholder governance and journalism and newsrooms. And I got a very expensive lesson in the following: that these are important institutions. I even wonder at some point if they should have some sort of tax benefit, because I think they do really important work. But at the end of the day, these are institutions that should be owned by trusts. They should have a trust that basically hires the right guy or gal to run the thing and they just stay the fuck out of it.
Swisher: Well, maybe I have that idea. Maybe I’m not doing it your way, Scott Galloway.
Galloway: Well, I know, but … just to bring the listeners up, there’s been a lot of rumors that you’re assembling a group to make a bid for the Washington Post.
Swisher: Yes.
Galloway: And what I haven’t heard is that Jeff Bezos is willing to sell it.
Swisher: Correct.
Galloway: And so all of this, in my view, is sort of all chip, no salsa.
Swisher: Doesn’t add up.
Galloway: Yeah. So we — or when I say we, I mean you — complain about the Post and the ownership. But, and I told you this on the phone the other night, if you were serious about doing this, you would’ve had offline conversations with Bezos and said, “Can I put together a group that includes you?” That gives you some shark repellent and inoculates you from this bullshit and grief, which you are probably not enjoying right now. It gives you plausible deniability. I think if you were serious, you have to get Jeff onboard.
Swisher: Yes, correct. This is what I’m attempting to do. Again, you’re not asking if I’m attempting to do this.
Galloway: Well, right. But the way you would do this, Kara, is quietly.
Swisher: Mm-mm. I think you’re wrong.
Galloway: You’re not going to shame this guy into selling the Post.
Swisher: I’m not shaming him. I actually have praised his ownership until recently. I think it’s much more complex. There are a lot more people than me looking at this, by the way. FYI. Nk—
Galloway: Is that right?
Swisher: Yes, and I’m meeting with everybody. This is how I’m approaching it. I’m a reporter. I was an excellent reporter. I certainly was a much better reporter than—
Galloway: I think you still are an excellent reporter.
Swisher: I am. Much more so than the guy who’s the CEO of the company, by far.
Galloway: You are not going to get this thing shitposting the current CEO.
Swisher: I don’t care about the CEO. I think he … fine. Whatever. It doesn’t matter. It’s not shitposting. I’m saying what I think. That is not shitposting.
Galloway: That was the definition of shitposting.
Swisher: Well, I am a better reporter. I’m sorry. It’s a factual thing.
Galloway: Okay.
Swisher: So, I think the way to do it is start the conversation and get it going. I am so sick of these quiet little deals that largely white men make with each other. So I’m doing it a different way. You know how you talk about trying to do things differently, try to think of new ways to do things?
Galloway: Yeah.
Swisher: That’s what I’m doing. I’m talking to everybody. Like, everybody. And you’d be surprised who I’m talking to. By the way, I had a long, long conversation with a billionaire who was doubtful. Suddenly, he’s very engaged in the idea.
Galloway: What else did Mark Cuban say?
Swisher: No, that’s not who I’m talking about, but he would be great. Someone like that. I welcome his input because I think he’s really smart. I welcome the feedback of negativity that you are displaying. That’s fine. That’s great. I think it’s good to talk to everyone and understand what the various possibilities would be. And one of the things that I think about doing this thing, then we’ll end this, is why not just talk about it explicitly?
If I ran this thing, everything would be transparent. You know how you have all these media reporters like feeders, talking about what happened at a meeting. I’d broadcast the fucking meeting. What’s the secret here? It’s losing money. “Here’s how much money we’re losing. Here’s why. Here’s what we invested in.” I think one of the reasons Pivot’s successful is because we’re very transparent about what we’re up to most of the time. We really are. And we say when we make mistakes. I would make it public. I’d make it a narrative. I would come up with lots of ideas. And I agree with you. It’s not a moneymaking situation here.
Galloway: You’d do an HBO series like Drive to Survive, or Behind the Music, or those things where they depict the season of the team.
Swisher: Survivor, yeah. It’s a great story.
Galloway: I think you think the institution is more interesting than it is. I think you find it fascinating.
Swisher: It is, it is.
Galloway: And a small group of Beltway people in Kalorama find it interesting. And most of them find that the reporters in the newsroom are amazing at reporting, and they brighten up a room by leaving it. I just don’t think it’s that dramatic a story.
Swisher: No, I think it’s a great story. The Washington Post has a particular hold on this country in a way that’s really wonderful in many ways. You don’t think Ben Bradlee was interesting? It is actually inherently interesting and the idea that there’s one newspaper, the New York Times … Also you could do all kinds of things with papers around the country. What’s the fresh idea here, is all I’m going for. I’m open to the fresh idea of how you could save this institution in a way that is really interesting, and you don’t have to have a foregone conclusion for every single thing.
This is a particular and peculiar institution that I think is important. And I obviously have an emotional connection to it because I started there in the newsroom, but there really is something about … there cannot just be the New York Times. And, by the way, something’s going to happen with The Wall Street Journal when Rupert goes. Who knows what goes on with that institution, right? Then over on the West Coast, you got Looney Tunes — the guy who was running …
Galloway: L.A. Times.
Swisher: That guy. He started off a liberal, now he’s a Trumper. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Galloway: Yeah, but you’re defining media by the fact that it’s printed on dead trees.
Swisher: I don’t. Listen.
Galloway: There’s a lot of competition.
Swisher: I agree. I told Don Graham when I left, “Why are you even printing it?” This was back in the ’90s. I was like, “I don’t even understand why you print it.” I don’t actually. I still don’t. So, I’m just saying, I think this is interesting. It’s an interesting puzzle to Kara Swisher and I have a million other things I’m doing that are much more lucrative, that are much more promising—
Galloway: Just enjoy — just be a billionaire. Just be a wealthy lesbian. Buy, like, a roller-derby team or something. Bezos gets it, you don’t. He’s on a fucking yacht with a woman in a G-string in St. Barts and you’re talking about all this self-inflicted pain. You’re about to go into a dentist’s office and say, “Hold off on the Novocaine.” I mean, you’ve been in newsrooms, I’ll give you that.
Swisher: Hello? I’ve been in all of them. I’ve been in all of them.
Galloway: I can’t believe you would subject yourself to that bullshit.
Swisher: I think there’s a new way. Let me just tell you. Anyway, we’ll see what happens. But I predict in 2025, I will meet with Jeff Bezos or my name isn’t Kara Swisher, okay?
Galloway: I wouldn’t put it past you.
Swisher: I’m doing it. He’s going to do it. And you know what? He’s going to like it. He and me and Lauren, we’ll be laughing it up on his yacht. But let me just say. I think this is fun for me. I don’t know why he owns it. I know a Jeff Bezos that’s different than this, let me say, who loves the challenge. And the Jeff Bezos behaving here is not the Jeff Bezos I liked.
Galloway: I’m sold, but I don’t matter.
Swisher: I’m going to give you a column, like a video column.
Galloway: I’m in for a dollar and I’ll come to the party in D.C.
Swisher: Here’s what I’m going to do for you. I’m going to strap a GoPro on your head …
Galloway: Strap what?
Swisher: … and just going to broadcast …
Galloway: Oh, I’m sorry.
Swisher: … on a part of you. I’m going to strap it on you and I’m going to just have Scott Galloway every day. And that’s just it. That’s all I’m going to do.
Galloway: You had me at strap-on. Go buy the Washington Post.
Swisher: I shall.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
